Old Peugeot, slipping freewheel. Any suggestions?

[garage sale GT]

I have recently acquired an old Peugeot I estimate to be from the early 80's. When in the lowest speeds, the freewheel slips. It does not give suddenly, as if the pawls weren't engaging. Rather, it's a slipping feel, as if the part with the freewheel threads was pressed into the hub and was slipping. The hub is Maillard.

Is there a fix, and if not, is it dangerous to tool around on this marvelous old springy carbon steel frame on recovery days? It doesn't do it in high gear.

I can't easily pull the freewheel off. It is unusual in that the removal splines are big enough to allow a fairly large dust cap to pass out through the right, about 30mm dia.

 

[kdelong]

I have recently acquired an old Peugeot I estimate to be from the early 80's. When in the lowest speeds, the freewheel slips. It does not give suddenly, as if the pawls weren't engaging. Rather, it's a slipping feel, as if the part with the freewheel threads was pressed into the hub and was slipping. The hub is Maillard.

Is there a fix, and if not, is it dangerous to tool around on this marvelous old springy carbon steel frame on recovery days? It doesn't do it in high gear.

I can't easily pull the freewheel off. It is unusual in that the removal splines are big enough to allow a fairly large dust cap to pass out through the right, about 30mm dia.

I'm showing my age here but it sounds as if you might have one of Maillard's Helicomatic Hubs. This was the first hub that had a splined freewheel and separate cassette, but the splines were radially offset so that as you pedalled, you pulled the cassette toward the center of the wheel. It could be that the lower cogs are slipping on the center splined bushing of the cassette due to the higher torque generated in lower gears. I don't think that this is a dangerous situation but there is no fix that I am aware of. It is more likely that the wear will continue to the point where the cogs spin freely around the bushing and then you will not be able to use that particular gear. I would carry a cell phone with me when I rode the bike just to save yourself from a long walk home if they all came loose at once.

 

[garage sale GT]

I have seen the pictures of the Helicomatic on Sheldon Brown's site and I don't think I have one. My part looks like a freewheel. The bearing cup is in the hub and takes 1/4" balls. There are splines on the inside, under the three smallest rings, just like a shimano fw except about 30mm large. That externally splined lockring is not present; in fact I can not determine what holds the sprockets on at all. It is a 5 speed and I believe the helicomatic was a 6.

The freewheel says "Normandy Made in France" on the inside just under the smallest sprocket. Maybe the hub is not even Maillard. The rim is marked "CMC 27X1**", I can't make out the rest, too small to be "-1/4", but the rim is big enough to be for 1-1/4 tires.

I assumed the hub was Maillard because the front is, but the rear is not marked. The rim is not dimpled like the front, so maybe someone swapped out the rear wheel.

 

[alfeng]

I have recently acquired an old Peugeot I estimate to be from the early 80's. When in the lowest speeds, the freewheel slips. It does not give suddenly, as if the pawls weren't engaging. Rather, it's a slipping feel, as if the part with the freewheel threads was pressed into the hub and was slipping. The hub is Maillard.

Is there a fix, and if not, is it dangerous to tool around on this marvelous old springy carbon steel frame on recovery days? It doesn't do it in high gear.

I can't easily pull the freewheel off. It is unusual in that the removal splines are big enough to allow a fairly large dust cap to pass out through the right, about 30mm dia.

FWIW. If you can't get a tool which fits the freewheel, then I would use a 4"/4.5" HAND GRINDER to remove the freewheel ... a bit brutal (and, tedious), and you have to be careful as you approach the actual hub [yes, I removed an already damaged freewheel this way, once, since I didn't have the right tool for it] ...

OR, abandon the wheel in its current state & relace the rim to a new hub-or-freehub.

 

[garage sale GT]

This oddity does not seem to have a lockring. The part the sprockets are attached to is only about 2mm thick and you can't see what keeps it from sliding off the freewheel hub. 5mm inside, you see the 30mm dia removal splines of the freewheel hub.

Unless you work on Normandy freewheels a lot, next time try tapping off the lockring with an old screwdriver or cold chisel and taking off the sprockets (newbie readers: remember to go backwards; it's a reverse thread). Then, remove the freewheel hub with a pipe wrench or vise. You could conceivably even service a freewheel this way if you did not mar an important part of the hub.

 

[ninemileimages]

contact yellowjersey.org

He might be able to help you with this hub whether it be a Helicomatic or not. Knows a lot about everything French.

 

[alfeng]

... whether it be a Helicomatic or not.

FWIW. The Helicomatic hub that I had used a lockring to hold the cogs on the freehub's serpentine splines ... if there isn't a lockring (I don't know what the thread was), then it probably isn't a Helicomatic hub. The Helicomatic hubs had a "mylar" (?) band which identified it, but of course, that band-or-remnants could be missing, now.

A relatively (?) easy way to tell if the hub is a Helicomatic OR a "regular" hub that uses a freewheel is to remove the axle and see if the bearings are SMALLER than you would anticipate for a rear hub ... if they are, then it is probably a Helicomatic hub ... conversely, if the bearings appear to be normal sized, then it is probably a hub that has been threaded to use a freewheel.

 

[garage sale GT]

I'm thinking of ending the thread. I don't think that bike is worth the trouble of lacing a new wheel or sending wheels off to some expert. The bb was already dicey.

Anyone want a 55cm Carbolite 103 internally lugged frame with heavy signpost damage to the paint?

 

[alfeng]

I'm thinking of ending the thread. I don't think that bike is worth the trouble of lacing a new wheel or sending wheels off to some expert. The bb was already dicey.

Anyone want a 55cm Carbolite 103 internally lugged frame with heavy signpost damage to the paint?

FWIW. I think it would be worth it for you to relace the rim onto a new hub ... because, although the Carbolite 103 frame may be heavy, those are pretty nice frames (I have a Reynolds 501 version with the same Fillet Brazing -- my Peugeot has the same main triangle geometry as on my Colnago frame & only the chainstay length & tire clearance is different, so the handling is really quite good [it's mostly-if-not-all about the geometry]).

And, if the BB seems dicey to you, then it can be replaced with a Shimano cartridge OR any spindle from an English BB can be used. I would reckon that there is a 99% probability that the BB shell on your Peugeot has English threads (that's what mine has) EVEN THOUGH some might refer to it as Swiss threading ... the original fork has French threads.

Otherwise, I would say that I would take the frame/bike off your hands ... especially, if I were within driving distance (which I'm not).

BTW. I thought you were an experienced wheel builder ... if not, then you should take this occasion to learn.

 

[garage sale GT]

The bb is French thread. Both cups screw in the same way. It also has a different square taper than Shimano so I would have to get a new crankset.

There are no apparent fillets. I think it is an internal lug frame.

The rim is slightly rusty chrome steel.

I do not think this was the top of the line Peugeot.

 

[alfeng]

The bb is French thread. Both cups screw in the same way. It also has a different square taper than Shimano so I would have to get a new crankset.

There are no apparent fillets. I think it is an internal lug frame.

The rim is slightly rusty chrome steel.

I do not think this was the top of the line Peugeot.

Okay, an 80s vintage, steel rimmed wheel probably isn't worth putzing around with ... unless you want to salvage the hub.

Fillet brazed frames are internally lugged ... not sure why Peugeot used them for a year-or-two since they are more labor intensive (i.e., expensive to produce) ... so, it's actually BETTER in some regards.

The Peugeot frames with Carbolite tubing are lower end ... but, that doesn't mean the geometry isn't similar to the more expensive bretheren. If the frame fits you (or, vice-versa), it will make a good beater, if nothing else.

Any "regular" spindle from almost any English BB can be substituted ... you should be able to get a spindle-only (Shimano OR Sugino/Campy [which is what you probably have in the bike]) for under $10 at an LBS, I would think. Maybe less since it is "dead" inventory.

BTW. You can retrofit SOME Shimano square-taper cartridge BBs if they begin life with Italian cups. Just "tap" (!) the fixed cup off the cartridge. Then, insert a 2mm shim (THAT seems to be the right amount -- a 14g spoke bent into a ring will do) into the BB shell (fixed cup in place, already), insert the "cupless" cartridge, put the adjustable cup & ring on. Voila!

I suppose there are some Shimano UN-xx bottom brackets with English cups that whose fixed cup can be tapped off, too ...

I've got ONE 70s vintage French frame that I've already done that to with an UN-51 BB ... another frame with a proprietary Raleigh BB has been "fixed" that way with an UN-71 BB ... and, I'm contemplating putting an older Chorus cartridge into another French frame using the same technique (I'm just scrounging around for an extra, OLD spoke rather than sacrifice a new one). Of course, the BB cartridge can be easily removed at any time ...

 

[garage sale GT]

Of all things, it was loose! That's odd because it was obviously a used bike and used freewheel.

It stopped doing it after a five mile ride but the derailleur was no longer able to go into first gear, and when I adjusted it, it bumped the spoke protector. Maybe there was some debris in the threads which prevented full tightening, maybe the threads weren't fully formed at the end, maybe it was serviced and then not ridden, who knows. It sure felt like it went around several times, though.

Thanks for all the replies. I took my bike on about a 40 mile tour yesterday and it was fine, if a bit cramped for the likes of me.

 

[garage sale GT]

Fillet brazed frames are internally lugged ...

This one may be internally lugged but it is not fillet brazed as there are no fillets. Maybe it's just like a lugged frame with the lugs inside.

For those who are interested, Niagara has some sort of Pyramid BB cartridge which is supposed to work in stripped threads and would presumably also work in a French BB, since it is larger.

 

[alfeng]

This one may be internally lugged but it is not fillet brazed as there are no fillets. Maybe it's just like a lugged frame with the lugs inside.

FYI/FWIW. A bike with fillet brazed joints will remind you of an old Schwinn Varsity ... there won't be any external evidence of the joinery AFTER the frame has been painted ... and, that is where the extra labor comes in -- cleaning any excess brass from the outside of the joined tubes.