Older brifter (7 speed): How do I tell if for double or tripple?

[Joe LoBuglio]

I bought some used integrated brake/shifters for my 1987 Trek 560 and
can't get the front derailler to work properly. I've tried many things
and I am beginning to believe that, contrary to what the seller said,
these may be for a triple and not a double. The problem is the shifters
don't have any markings except the word Shimano molded into the hood.
Is there a way to tell if it is for a double or triple?

I don't even know the model of these. I put some pictures at
http://tinyurl.com/8vtpg .

The problem is that if I adjust it so that there is no rub in the small
ring and largest cog (lowest gear), it doesn't shift into the large
ring on the next click of the left derailler even if I hold it in.
Instead it puts it in an intermediate position where there is a good
deal of gnashing. It takes a slight second push to nudge it up. If,
instead, I set it up so it shifts well then it rubs on its lowest gear.

The shifter has three positions and I am assuming position one is for
the small ring, position two should go on the large ring and position
three is for trimming the front derailler in the highest few gears.

I went through Sheldon's site on making sure my front derailler was set
up correctly (it has worked without a problem for many years but I know
these shifters are more temperamental). The rings are straight, the
derailler is close to the large ring, and I've tried several rotational
angles and believe I have it straight.

Specs on the bike: It was a originally a 6 speed but is now a 7 speed
freewheel with 126 mm spacing in the rear. Original Shimano 105 front
derailler. New shifter cables and housings (shift housing, not brake
housing) and the housings were cut with a Dremel and ground flat, with
the liner opened after grinding with an awl. New ferules on both ends
of the shift cable. The cable housing terminates at cable stops where
the down-tube shifters were. The cables run under the bottom bracket in
some grooves in the metal itself.

Thanks for any thoughts. I was thinking about buying a new front
derailler (I am told that by moving directly outward, shifting is
better) but worry that the cage is narrower and this would actually
make my problem worse.

Joe LoBuglio

 

[Chris Z The Wheelman]

It shouldn't really matter, A click should still move the derailer the
appropriate distance, assuming you are using compatible components. Or
else they have changed the distances between chainwheels on double and
triple cranksets, which I wouldn't put past them. Just one more way to
create chaos, and make us spend more $$$, right?

But I digress...

To find out what you have: A triple brifter will have two "clicks", a
double only has one. Disconnect the cable from the front mech, or if you
can, simply slip one of the cable housing ends out of it's stop, so the
brifter can be worked without moving the derailer. Then just count the
clicks your front brifter has. BTW, the "partial" move at the upper end
is just to give the mech. a little more pull if case a normal click
doesn't lift the chain onto the largest ring.

- -
These comments compliments of,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman

My web Site:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

 

[damyth]

Joe LoBuglio wrote:
> I bought some used integrated brake/shifters for my 1987 Trek 560 and
> can't get the front derailler to work properly. I've tried many things
> and I am beginning to believe that, contrary to what the seller said,
> these may be for a triple and not a double. The problem is the shifters
> don't have any markings except the word Shimano molded into the hood.
> Is there a way to tell if it is for a double or triple?
>
> I don't even know the model of these. I put some pictures at
> http://tinyurl.com/8vtpg .
>
> The problem is that if I adjust it so that there is no rub in the small
> ring and largest cog (lowest gear), it doesn't shift into the large
> ring on the next click of the left derailler even if I hold it in.
> Instead it puts it in an intermediate position where there is a good
> deal of gnashing. It takes a slight second push to nudge it up. If,
> instead, I set it up so it shifts well then it rubs on its lowest gear.
>
> The shifter has three positions and I am assuming position one is for
> the small ring, position two should go on the large ring and position
> three is for trimming the front derailler in the highest few gears.
>
> I went through Sheldon's site on making sure my front derailler was set
> up correctly (it has worked without a problem for many years but I know
> these shifters are more temperamental). The rings are straight, the
> derailler is close to the large ring, and I've tried several rotational
> angles and believe I have it straight.
>
> Specs on the bike: It was a originally a 6 speed but is now a 7 speed
> freewheel with 126 mm spacing in the rear. Original Shimano 105 front
> derailler. New shifter cables and housings (shift housing, not brake
> housing) and the housings were cut with a Dremel and ground flat, with
> the liner opened after grinding with an awl. New ferules on both ends
> of the shift cable. The cable housing terminates at cable stops where
> the down-tube shifters were. The cables run under the bottom bracket in
> some grooves in the metal itself.
>
> Thanks for any thoughts. I was thinking about buying a new front
> derailler (I am told that by moving directly outward, shifting is
> better) but worry that the cage is narrower and this would actually
> make my problem worse.
>
> Joe LoBuglio

It pretty much is supposed to work the way you describe. The
"intermediate" position is for trimming, for when you are using the
lower/upper half of cassette cogs (and using the small chain ring), to
accomodate the change in chain line.

I really doubt you need to buy a front derailler. Just make sure you
adjust it correctly, and make sure the cable is under some tension at
the "default attachment" position (these days that would be the "low"
position, no idea for your specific derailler.

 

[Joe LoBuglio]

Chris Z Writes:
>To find out what you have: A triple brifter will have two "clicks", a
>double only has one.

Thanks for your reply. It has three clicks. However I am told that even
double shifters have three clicks, one being for trim. I do not know,
however, which is the trim position.

 

[Joe LoBuglio]

Damyth Wrote:
> It pretty much is supposed to work the way you describe.
> The"intermediate" position is for trimming, for when you are
> using the lower/upper half of cassette cogs (and using the
> small chain ring), to accomodate the change in chain line.

Thanks. So I should should adjust it so that in the middle shifter
position the chain is on the small ring and there is no rub for the
harder gears (outmost cogs). Then when I shift down the things should
be find on my lowest gears. Shifting up twice should then put me on my
large ring. I suppose I expect some rubbing in all but the highest
three gears?

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

Joe LoBuglio wrote:
> Chris Z Writes:
>> To find out what you have: A triple brifter will have two "clicks", a
>> double only has one.
>
> Thanks for your reply. It has three clicks. However I am told that
> even double shifters have three clicks, one being for trim. I do not
> know, however, which is the trim position.

Higher-quality doubles shouldn't have three clicks, because that would mean
four positions.

Sora has always been one chainring, one position. Tiagra, lately, has had a
trim function. But since it's an old 7-speed, it may or may not have trim.
You should be able to get it to shift reliably whether or not it has trim,
and whether or not it's for a double or triple. The last click just won't
function if it's a triple because the front derailleur will lock it out.

Speeds = clicks +1 as rule for the rear.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

Joe LoBuglio wrote:
> Damyth Wrote:
>> It pretty much is supposed to work the way you describe.
>> The"intermediate" position is for trimming, for when you are
>> using the lower/upper half of cassette cogs (and using the
>> small chain ring), to accomodate the change in chain line.
>
> Thanks. So I should should adjust it so that in the middle shifter
> position the chain is on the small ring and there is no rub for the
> harder gears (outmost cogs). Then when I shift down the things should
> be find on my lowest gears. Shifting up twice should then put me on
> my large ring. I suppose I expect some rubbing in all but the highest
> three gears?

You got it.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Joe LoBuglio]

Joe LoBuglio mistakenly wrote:
> Thanks for your reply. It has three clicks. However I am told that even
> double shifters have three clicks, one being for trim. I do not know,
> however, which is the trim position.

I was wrong about what I said. It has two clicks but three positions.
Sorry for the confussion.

Joe

 

[[email protected]]

Joe LoBuglio wrote:
> I bought some used integrated brake/shifters for my 1987 Trek 560 and
> can't get the front derailler to work properly. ...

> Thanks for any thoughts. I was thinking about buying a new front
> derailler (I am told that by moving directly outward, shifting is
> better) but worry that the cage is narrower and this would actually
> make my problem worse.

Shimano STI-compatible road front derailleurs have a short
arm between the cable attachment and the pivot. The
result is that the derailleur moves further for a given amount
of cable pull. Pre-STI road and current mountain front ders
have a longer arm. This incompatibility causes much
gnashing of teeth, but probably exists because the amount
of cable a front STI road shifter can pull is limited.

Anyway, an STI road shifter with an old derailleur, like the
original one on your 560, won't move the derailleur enough.
You can try a quick fix by attaching the cable on the "wrong"
side of the clamp bolt, closer to the pivot. This increases
the derailleur movement. The "approved" solution is to
get a newer STI-compatible road der. They aren't very
expensive. However, front STI often still has a little chain
rub depending on your chainline, etc.

 

[Joe LoBuglio]

Joe LoBuglio Wrote:
>I don't even know the model of these. I put some pictures at
> http://tinyurl.com/8vtpg . <<--- Doesn't work

The link to the pictures above doesn't work. This one does:
http://tinyurl.com/9f3zw .

Sorry for the extra posts.

Joe

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

Joe LoBuglio wrote:
> Joe LoBuglio Wrote:
>> I don't even know the model of these. I put some pictures at
>> http://tinyurl.com/8vtpg . <<--- Doesn't work
>
> The link to the pictures above doesn't work. This one does:
> http://tinyurl.com/9f3zw .
>
> Sorry for the extra posts.
>
> Joe

Looks like Shimano 105.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[[email protected]]

Joe LoBuglio wrote:
> Joe LoBuglio Wrote:
> >I don't even know the model of these. I put some pictures at
> > http://tinyurl.com/8vtpg . <<--- Doesn't work
>
> The link to the pictures above doesn't work. This one does:
> http://tinyurl.com/9f3zw .

http://www.lobuglio.org/shifter/shifter.htm

First thing: From your excellent photos and the statement that it's for
7-speed in the back, I think you may have a Shimano RSX lever. It's
triple compatible. But I'm pretty sure it only works with the RSX front
derailleur. The RSX triple was a ******* system from Shimano. If that's
what you have, I'd quit right there, but others may have a fix I
haven't thought of.

Second thing, your front derailleur isn't STI compatible. It also isn't
triple compatible. It has the slant action that requires a different
cable pull than any STI lever I know of, and the swing may not reach
across all three chainrings (but I'm not positive about that). I'd
switch that out together with a different STI lever. Or go back to down
tube shifting for the front.

Sheldon has more info about the RSX on the his derailer adjustment
page: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adjustment.html#front

Scroll down a bit to read this:

"Lately I've started modifying front derailers for improved shifting
with larger rings. I have an RSX on a bike with 50/38/28 Biopace (the
sweep of a 50 Biopace is comparable to that of a 52 round.) The RSX
front derailer works great on its intended 46/36/26 setup, but the cage
doesn't match the curve of the larger chainring. In a couple of minutes
with a grinding wheel, I removed a good bit of metal from the bottom
rear of the outer cage plate, and a bit from the bridge section where
the inner and outer cage plates connect at the back. This made the
derailer match the curvature of the larger chainwheel, and allowed me
to set it low enough to provide good chain control. This setup now
works fine with an STI rig that doesn't permit "trimming" the front
derailer."

I thought he had something else on the site about compaitibility of
this RSX stuff but I can't find it right now.

Good luck! Hope I'm wrong! ;-)

P.S. Another way to learn what you have is to look for the Shimano part
number and google that. Something like ST-A470 or so on the lever;
maybe FD-1052 on the front derailleur. (I made those up, but you get
the idea.)

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:

> http://www.lobuglio.org/shifter/shifter.htm
>
> First thing: From your excellent photos and the statement that it's for
> 7-speed in the back, I think you may have a Shimano RSX lever. It's
> triple compatible. But I'm pretty sure it only works with the RSX front
> derailleur. The RSX triple was a ******* system from Shimano. If that's
> what you have, I'd quit right there, but others may have a fix I
> haven't thought of.

FWIW, I have a pair of Shimano RSX 3x8 STI shifters. The
cable pull is normal. The weird thing about the RSX front was
that some RSX derailleurs were for a 46t big ring. Also there
may have been a bottom pull, low clamp design. But I think
the cable pull was normal. My shifter works with a non-RSX front
der on a 52t big ring. I agree with what you said about the OP's
unusual non-STI slant action front der.

The part number for those shifters may be inside the hood
if you peel it back a little.

> Second thing, your front derailleur isn't STI compatible. It also isn't
> triple compatible. It has the slant action that requires a different
> cable pull than any STI lever I know of, and the swing may not reach
> across all three chainrings (but I'm not positive about that). I'd
> switch that out together with a different STI lever. Or go back to down
> tube shifting for the front.
>
> Sheldon has more info about the RSX on the his derailer adjustment
> page: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adjustment.html#front

> P.S. Another way to learn what you have is to look for the Shimano part
> number and google that. Something like ST-A470 or so on the lever;
> maybe FD-1052 on the front derailleur. (I made those up, but you get
> the idea.)

 

[RonSonic]

On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:37:04 -0500, "Phil, Squid-in-Training"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Joe LoBuglio wrote:
>> Chris Z Writes:
>>> To find out what you have: A triple brifter will have two "clicks", a
>>> double only has one.
>>
>> Thanks for your reply. It has three clicks. However I am told that
>> even double shifters have three clicks, one being for trim. I do not
>> know, however, which is the trim position.
>
>Higher-quality doubles shouldn't have three clicks, because that would mean
>four positions.
>
>Sora has always been one chainring, one position. Tiagra, lately, has had a
>trim function. But since it's an old 7-speed, it may or may not have trim.
>You should be able to get it to shift reliably whether or not it has trim,
>and whether or not it's for a double or triple. The last click just won't
>function if it's a triple because the front derailleur will lock it out.
>
>Speeds = clicks +1 as rule for the rear.

Seven speed Sora has a trim position for the front der. Now that isn't old Sora,
but Sora bought about a year ago, so things may have been different before.

Ron

 

[Bruce Graham]

In article <1liof.790$NS.6@dukeread04>,
[email protected] says...
> Joe LoBuglio wrote:
> > Joe LoBuglio Wrote:
> >> I don't even know the model of these. I put some pictures at
> >> http://tinyurl.com/8vtpg . <<--- Doesn't work
> >
> > The link to the pictures above doesn't work. This one does:
> > http://tinyurl.com/9f3zw .
> >
> > Sorry for the extra posts.
> >
> > Joe
>
> Looks like Shimano 105.
>
>
my old 7sp RSX (1997?) looks like those too. they are double/triple
compatible (no trim, two clicks, three positions)

 

[Bruce Graham]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> First thing: From your excellent photos and the statement that it's for
> 7-speed in the back, I think you may have a Shimano RSX lever. It's
> triple compatible. But I'm pretty sure it only works with the RSX front
> derailleur. The RSX triple was a ******* system from Shimano. If that's
> what you have, I'd quit right there, but others may have a fix I
> haven't thought of.
>
I think the odd thing about the RSX triple of that vintage (1996-7?) was
that the RSX front der cage was shaped for the small rings of the
matching RSX triple crankset of the day (46-36-26) which I find works
well for my touring. The RSX LH. shifter also had no trimming (just two
clicks) which also works fine on my long chainstay touring bike because
the chain angles are less than on a racing bike. I think the cable pull
is the same as other STI's.

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

RonSonic wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2005 11:37:04 -0500, "Phil, Squid-in-Training"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Joe LoBuglio wrote:
>>> Chris Z Writes:
>>>> To find out what you have: A triple brifter will have two
>>>> "clicks", a double only has one.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your reply. It has three clicks. However I am told that
>>> even double shifters have three clicks, one being for trim. I do
>>> not know, however, which is the trim position.
>>
>> Higher-quality doubles shouldn't have three clicks, because that
>> would mean four positions.
>>
>> Sora has always been one chainring, one position. Tiagra, lately,
>> has had a trim function. But since it's an old 7-speed, it may or
>> may not have trim. You should be able to get it to shift reliably
>> whether or not it has trim, and whether or not it's for a double or
>> triple. The last click just won't function if it's a triple because
>> the front derailleur will lock it out.
>>
>> Speeds = clicks +1 as rule for the rear.
>
> Seven speed Sora has a trim position for the front der. Now that
> isn't old Sora, but Sora bought about a year ago, so things may have
> been different before.
>
> Ron

Didn't know... thanks for the info.
--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Joe LoBuglio]

Thanks for all the info. It was a real help in allowing me to get these
to work.

Resolution:
The part number (ST-A410) is under the shifter hood which let me find
out they were 1998 RSX levers.

As several posters mentioned the derailler motion was not adequate for
the given cable uptake with the cable in the correct position. This
manifested itself in that if I adjusted the cable so that, with the
shifter on the center position and chain on the inner ring, there would
be no rub in the outer cogs, there was rubbing in the inner cogs when
the shifter returned to the inner-most position. I moved the cable so
that it pulls from the right side of the attachment bolt (closer to the
derailler) and thus, with the shorter lever arm, has more travel. This
allowed me to get it to work.

So this is what I have working now:

Derailler in innermost position (small chainring) allows me to use cogs
1 through 4 with no rubbing, 5 and 6 with minor rubbing, 7 (yup, don't
use this) with significant rubbing.

Derailler in center position (still on small chainring) allows me to
use cogs 3 through 5 with no rubbing. Rubbing in cogs 6 and 7 (I know,
don't use these) occurs on the outer chainring and not because of the
derailer.

Derailler in the outer position (outer chainring) allows use of 4
through 7 without rubbing.

The only thing that isn't great is that the cable tension is a bit low
in the inner most position.

More bike info:
Trek 560, 53/39 up front, 13/28 7 speed rear. Racing geometry so more
pronounced chain angles.

Thanks again.

Joe LoBuglio