On-The-Bike Weight Training.....



lorrod

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Feb 7, 2005
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Can anyone recommend a specific on-the-bike weight routine? For instance, I have heard about riding hills in the 50-70 RPM range, pushing a big enough gear to feel the pedal stroke all the way around, utilizing multiple leg muscles, etc. Does anyone have anything else they do on-the-bike to simulate weight training?
 
lorrod said:
Can anyone recommend a specific on-the-bike weight routine? For instance, I have heard about riding hills in the 50-70 RPM range, pushing a big enough gear to feel the pedal stroke all the way around, utilizing multiple leg muscles, etc. Does anyone have anything else they do on-the-bike to simulate weight training?

You can't simulate weight training on the bike. if for e.g., you want to get considerably stronger (for some reason other than endurance cycling performance) then weights would be one thing to do. On the other hand you may be able to increase you strength a little by doing standing start sprints. However, such training would have no effect on your endurance cycling performance and may be detrimental.

ric
 
Boy, I hate having responses that differ from Ric's, but at the same time I hope that my coach at CTS bases his workouts on something factual! Both he (and Carmichael's book) have several "power building" workouts: Stomps (12-20second seated sprints in a big gear, around 53x13, from slow start speed (7-10mph); PowerStarts (essentially the same thing, but out of the saddle); MuscleTension (10-12 minute steady climbs in a gear big enough to keep you at 50-55rpm - seated - with a relatively low HR). The premise seems to be "big gear and either slow start speed or climbing = resistance." My schedule was loaded with these over the winter, as a substitute for gym work, which my coach doesn't recommend.
 
palewin said:
Boy, I hate having responses that differ from Ric's, but at the same time I hope that my coach at CTS bases his workouts on something factual! Both he (and Carmichael's book) have several "power building" workouts: Stomps (12-20second seated sprints in a big gear, around 53x13, from slow start speed (7-10mph); PowerStarts (essentially the same thing, but out of the saddle); MuscleTension (10-12 minute steady climbs in a gear big enough to keep you at 50-55rpm - seated - with a relatively low HR). The premise seems to be "big gear and either slow start speed or climbing = resistance." My schedule was loaded with these over the winter, as a substitute for gym work, which my coach doesn't recommend.
Part of the issue here (that is to say, daring to contradict Rick) is that you need to keep in mind just what we are discussing...
Strength, power and muscular endurance are all different aspects of performance and as such are defined differently.
Building strength requires a workload that causes fatigue within 1-~15 repetitions, depending on your strength training background. This never happens during a road or mtb event.
Once the repetitions get much beyond 15reps, you are primarily building muscular endurance (the ability of the muscles to lift the same load/generate the same amount of power many, many times, as in cycling or running).
W/o getting into the math, power has strength as part of its definition, but there is also a time element to it. In road cycling, the strength half of the equation is very low (i.e.: one does not need to be "strong" to be powerful on a bike); which is why Ric commented that increasing your strength does nothing for endurance cycling performance.
RST has similar workouts to the ones you describe that develop power on the bike, but we prefer to focus on the ranges of cadences that are inherent to road performance (or whatever your event is). We do not, however, advocate training your legs to generate endurance levels of power while pedaling abnormally low rpms (the kind of rpms that do not occur during road cycling). Although such 'muscle tension' exercises do potentially recruit more muscle fibers (though they do not build *strength*), we would argue that there are better ways of doing that....enough said there.
 
I do big gear starts in the saddle and out of the saddle, BUT I do that to train for track sprinting. Although I suppose they could help for when you need to quickly respond to a hard attack in a crit or road race.
 
An interesting topic and I don't profess any expertise in this area but have some experience that runs somewhat contary to the accepted theory that lots of repetitions of lower loads or resistance don't build strength or muscle size. I have read this from several sources and was told it also by the instructors when I started doing body pump (lots of repetitions of light weights) classes at the gym years ago.

I suspect some people adapt differently. Without doing any other weight training my muscles increased in size considerable doing body pump and my strength (as well as endurance) increased considerably. The same thing happened when I took up bike riding. Overall I've lost some weight but my leg muscles got significantly bigger.

In another thread on this forum some time back several others reported the same thing. The thread was about trying to lose weight riding and some reported putting weight on or staying the same but with a reduced BMI because of increased muscle size.
 
palewin said:
Boy, I hate having responses that differ from Ric's, but at the same time I hope that my coach at CTS bases his workouts on something factual! Both he (and Carmichael's book) have several "power building" workouts: Stomps (12-20second seated sprints in a big gear, around 53x13, from slow start speed (7-10mph); PowerStarts (essentially the same thing, but out of the saddle); MuscleTension (10-12 minute steady climbs in a gear big enough to keep you at 50-55rpm - seated - with a relatively low HR). The premise seems to be "big gear and either slow start speed or climbing = resistance." My schedule was loaded with these over the winter, as a substitute for gym work, which my coach doesn't recommend.

As Michael mentioned we do have some similar workouts at RST, however, I responded to the OP direct question (which was a workout on the bike to simulate weight training). This can't generally be done.

The Stomps and Power Starts would help to increase peak power (sprinting) and also the force you can generate. The MT intervals have no basis in physiology for providing a better workout than riding at the same power and your 'normal' bike cadence (whatever normal maybe for you). However, certain members (myself included) do, do low cadence intervals -- these are though performed at high power and are due to the natural environment of where you maybe located (i.e., one of the routes back to my house has a climb that must be close to 30% in places and accordingly, i am forced due to a lack of gearing to ride at ~ 40 revs/min). Riding at a submax power and a low cadence will only improve your ability at that power and cadence. Such a workout maybe be useful on an indoor trainer as part of session with various cadences and powers to help make it more entertaining.

ric
 
lorrod said:
Can anyone recommend a specific on-the-bike weight routine? For instance, I have heard about riding hills in the 50-70 RPM range, pushing a big enough gear to feel the pedal stroke all the way around, utilizing multiple leg muscles, etc. Does anyone have anything else they do on-the-bike to simulate weight training?

10 x 1 min intervals with 1 minute recovery between, legs will be trashed the next day or so.
 
ric_stern/RST said:
Riding at a submax power and a low cadence will only improve your ability at that power and cadence.
And do you think that's useful, Ric?

Here's why I ask. I can do multiple 15 minute intervals on my trainer holding ~230 W at 90 RPM cadence. However, when climbing a local hill that's around 9% grade, my speed drops to about 7 MPH, forcing me into my wimpy 30x23 at around 65 RPM. I find that regime to be significantly harder to maintain, even though it represents roughly the same power output.

Is the right thing to do to push the power level of the high cadence trainer intervals to a higher output or do some of these so-called muscle tension (MT) intervals also? Are they substitutes for each other?

And, of course, one of these days I should really try your MAP test recipe, so I can know what the various levels I should be training at are, but I think that will have to wait till after my triathlon at the end of April. I'll keep guesstimating that my MAP is around 300 W until then (based on average power at a 40 km TT during a triathlon in November).

Thanks, Ric.

Berend
 
squidwranglr said:
And do you think that's useful, Ric?

not overly

Here's why I ask. I can do multiple 15 minute intervals on my trainer holding ~230 W at 90 RPM cadence. However, when climbing a local hill that's around 9% grade, my speed drops to about 7 MPH, forcing me into my wimpy 30x23 at around 65 RPM. I find that regime to be significantly harder to maintain, even though it represents roughly the same power output.

Is the right thing to do to push the power level of the high cadence trainer intervals to a higher output or do some of these so-called muscle tension (MT) intervals also? Are they substitutes for each other?

if you want to improve on hills, then you should ride the hills.

And, of course, one of these days I should really try your MAP test recipe, so I can know what the various levels I should be training at are, but I think that will have to wait till after my triathlon at the end of April. I'll keep guesstimating that my MAP is around 300 W until then (based on average power at a 40 km TT during a triathlon in November).

Thanks, Ric.

Berend

the MAP is fun ;-). check http://cyclecoach.com/downloadPages?download=MAP_test&ext=.htm

http://cyclecoach.com/downloadPages?download=Calculate_your_MAP_zones&ext=.htm

cheers
ric
 
ric_stern/RST said:
if you want to improve on hills, then you should ride the hills.
Oh, I know that. :) And I do ride them. But I can't get out there every day whereas I can always hop on the trainer at night after work, so I was just looking for a way to make sure that I'm doing the best I can on the trainer to train for hill climbing.

the MAP is fun ;-). check
I had this:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern

in my bookmarks, but thanks for the link to the web applet for counting up the watts!

Berend
 
squidwranglr said:
Oh, I know that. :) And I do ride them. But I can't get out there every day whereas I can always hop on the trainer at night after work, so I was just looking for a way to make sure that I'm doing the best I can on the trainer to train for hill climbing.

of course, this is common for many people. of course you can get fitter this way. you need to focus on improving your sustainable power and MAP. this can be done on the flat or hills

in my bookmarks, but thanks for the link to the web applet for counting up the watts!

Berend

:). hope you liked the other MAP stuff too?

ric
 
I wrap 5 lb dumbells to my lower legs and ride normally, once per week. Also I wear a backpack with 20 lbs in it.
 
sparknote_s said:
I wrap 5 lb dumbells to my lower legs and ride normally, once per week. Also I wear a backpack with 20 lbs in it.
Interesting. I've also heard of putting lead weights in your water bottles, putting rocks and/or sand in your water bottles, and I hear that the pro rider Eric Wohlberg use to train with a ten pound weight attached to his bottom bracket area. Not sure if they work, but it's an interesting idea.
 
sparknote_s said:
I wrap 5 lb dumbells to my lower legs and ride normally, once per week. Also I wear a backpack with 20 lbs in it.

Because of exercise and training specificity, I'm not convinced that this is a better way of training. I have noticed that I have improved significantly more rapidly ridding a lighter bike than I did riding a heavier one.

This could be because now I ride with a fitter bunch and I have to work harder to keep up with them.

Point being: The adding of one thing in ones training, the thing being extra weight, something else may be diminished ? and this may reduce the specificity of the training. I did say "may"

I'm not adamant, I'm just not convinced.
 
sparknote_s said:
I wrap 5 lb dumbells to my lower legs and ride normally, once per week. Also I wear a backpack with 20 lbs in it.

IMO this seems like it would only make sense if you were training for an event where you had to use 5lb dumbells on your legs and carry a 20lb backpack...Im not being a smart ass (well maybe a little) but for bike commuting or touring, or some of these adventure races that are gaining in popularity. I mean isn't you goal to get faster? And don't you do this by stressing your body so it can adapt (very simplisitic)? Why not just ride faster sans the extra weight? I used to train with a guy who used lead water bottles and would climb with them. I was always thinking, hmmm if you took those off you could put the same effort in and go faster, getting the same result with your fitness...and I mean really even in training isn't it always better to go faster?
 
wilmar13 said:
IMO this seems like it would only make sense if you were training for an event where you had to use 5lb dumbells on your legs and carry a 20lb backpack...Im not being a smart ass (well maybe a little) but for bike commuting or touring, or some of these adventure races that are gaining in popularity. I mean isn't you goal to get faster? And don't you do this by stressing your body so it can adapt (very simplisitic)? Why not just ride faster sans the extra weight? I used to train with a guy who used lead water bottles and would climb with them. I was always thinking, hmmm if you took those off you could put the same effort in and go faster, getting the same result with your fitness...and I mean really even in training isn't it always better to go faster?

you are correct
 

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