One Legged Training

[crowley]

Originally posted by ricstern
i'm not doubting per se your 'healing powers' noel, what i'm asking for is some substatiated evidence that it works. if you heal a group of cyclists who just say "i had bad back pain prior to noels intervention" then that's just anecdotal evidence - the same as the problem you currently have. what we're asking for, and of course $10K is at stake here, is some empirical evidence that it works. without that, how do we know that your evidence (i.e., presenting a group of 'healed' cyclists isn't biased).

i can't do anything per se about back pain (unless it relates to a badly positioned cyclist on a bike), velozoom can't do anything either as regards back pain, but then neither of us two have suggested we can (or at least not to my knowledge). and we don't know that you can either at present.

That is true, you don't but I know and so will all the back pain
victims that it works for, so what will it matter whether anyone
else believes it or not. I am seeking the worst possible back
pain victims, let the best specialists in back pain have a go at
doing something for them first and let us see what hope they
have of ending the pain. Of course if you can completely
eliminate the pain of the worst victims, it clearly follows 99 per
cent of back pain can be eliminated. There will always be an
exceptional case. The difference in transferring this technique
to back pain victims and ordinary Rob Coapman style riders is
that they would approach it with a positive outlook while
Coapman would be negative. As this technique is 99 per cent
mental, this plays an important part.
That was why it was impossible to copy and probably impossible
for Anquetil to pass it on to other riders.

 

[VeloZoooooooom]

Originally posted by crowley
That is true, you don't but I know and so will all the back pain
victims that it works for, so what will it matter whether anyone
else believes it or not. I am seeking the worst possible back
pain victims, let the best specialists in back pain have a go at
doing something for them first and let us see what hope they
have of ending the pain. Of course if you can completely
eliminate the pain of the worst victims, it clearly follows 99 per
cent of back pain can be eliminated. There will always be an
exceptional case. The difference in transferring this technique
to back pain victims and ordinary Rob Coapman style riders is
that they would approach it with a positive outlook while
Coapman would be negative. As this technique is 99 per cent
mental, this plays an important part.
That was why it was impossible to copy and probably impossible
for Anquetil to pass it on to other riders.

You do not know me, sir, and do not presume to state what I will or will not do. I'm not a dead french cyclist and therefore you can not read my mind.

FYI- I would very much have an open mind on this is the concept were presented logically, with supporting data, and without the main basis for the concept being one man's assertion that he can tell exactly what was happening in a dead racer's mind and body based solely on grainy videos from 40 years ago. If you want to be listened to you are going to have to do more than rant and rave in such wild ways about your theories.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by crowley
That is true, you don't but I know and so will all the back pain
victims that it works for, so what will it matter whether anyone
else believes it or not. I am seeking the worst possible back
pain victims, let the best specialists in back pain have a go at
doing something for them first and let us see what hope they
have of ending the pain. Of course if you can completely
eliminate the pain of the worst victims, it clearly follows 99 per
cent of back pain can be eliminated. There will always be an
exceptional case. The difference in transferring this technique
to back pain victims and ordinary Rob Coapman style riders is
that they would approach it with a positive outlook while
Coapman would be negative. As this technique is 99 per cent
mental, this plays an important part.
That was why it was impossible to copy and probably impossible
for Anquetil to pass it on to other riders.

But for your $10K bet you need to provide evidence, because you've stated that your facts are genuine. We need documentary proof of this

 

[crowley]

Originally posted by ricstern
But for your $10K bet you need to provide evidence, because you've stated that your facts are genuine. We need documentary proof of this

I don't need money. Back to the name of this tread, if a
sample of the power of this technique when compared to all other
styles is required, the most suitable way to provide it would be
by a one legged pedaling TT around one lap of a track from
a seated " standing start".
Finally do you believe that the recommended circular pedaling
style is the most sensible way to pedal, leaving whether you pull up or don't pull up out of the question.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by crowley
I don't need money. Back to the name of this tread, if a
sample of the power of this technique when compared to all other
styles is required, the most suitable way to provide it would be
by a one legged pedaling TT around one lap of a track from
a seated " standing start".
Finally do you believe that the recommended circular pedaling
style is the most sensible way to pedal, leaving whether you pull up or don't pull up out of the question.

LOL! *YOU* offered the $10K if you couldn't prove it.

Noel doesn't need money, anyone want a share of the $10K?

 

[crowley]

Originally posted by crowley
I don't need money. Back to the name of this thread, if a
sample of the power of this technique when compared to all other
styles is required, the most suitable way to provide it would be
by a one legged pedaling TT around one lap of a track from
a seated " standing start".
Finally do you believe that the recommended circular pedaling
style is the most sensible way to pedal, leaving whether you pull up or don't pull up out of the question.

You did not answer that final question Ric, it's a simple yes or no?

 

[VeloZoooooooom]

Originally posted by crowley
You did not answer that final question Ric, it's a simple yes or no?

OMG, you got a bigger pair than I thought you did if you are calling someone on not answering questions. You have evaded at least 50 questions posed to you in this thread. Wow...

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by crowley
You did not answer that final question Ric, it's a simple yes or no?

having seen the data from research that has specifically addressed this, using force instrumented pedals i conclude that cyclists don't really pull up, with caveat mentioned when i referenced the Coyle et al paper, i.e., elite cyclists pull up less than less elite cyclists.

irrespective of what i do or don't believe, everyone (including you noel) has to pedal in circles, primarily because there's a fixed point (your bottom bracket) around which your cranks and pedals rotate. As someone else said, if you don't pedal in circles you better get your bike to the bike shop pronto.

so noel, do you have your money ready?

ric

 

[crowley]

Originally posted by ricstern
having seen the data from research that has specifically addressed this, using force instrumented pedals i conclude that cyclists don't really pull up, with caveat mentioned when i referenced the Coyle et al paper, i.e., elite cyclists pull up less than less elite cyclists.

irrespective of what i do or don't believe, everyone (including you noel) has to pedal in circles, primarily because there's a fixed point (your bottom bracket) around which your cranks and pedals rotate. As someone else said, if you don't pedal in circles you better get your bike to the bike shop pronto.

so noel, do you have your money ready?

ric

I take it your answer is yes.
Just because your pedals go round in circles, it does not mean
pedal pressure has to be applied in circles. Some day you will see
the light and join the Anquetil linear pedaling club. As the video
says " the adventure is only beginning".

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by crowley
I take it your answer is yes.
Just because your pedals go round in circles, it does not mean
pedal pressure has to be applied in circles. Some day you will see
the light and join the Anquetil linear pedaling club. As the video
says " the adventure is only beginning".

Have you deposited your $10K stake in a neutral place, so that it can be claimed by the rightful person at the end of the independently assessed and verified study?

 

[2LAP]

I think noel wants one of these...

http://www.improb.com/ig/ig-top.html

Sorry noel, keep trying!! You have a lot more work to beat this winner - even though I think your ideas are almost as special as his!!!!

http://www.under-tec.com/index.php

 

[n crowley]

Originally posted by ricstern
Have you deposited your $10K stake in a neutral place, so that it can be claimed by the rightful person at the end of the independently assessed and verified study?

I will if you are willing to cover it.

 

[VeloZoooooooom]

Originally posted by n crowley
I will if you are willing to cover it.

So when it comes down to cold, hard cash you aren't quite so sure of yourself. No surprise there.

 

[n crowley]

Originally posted by VeloZoooooooom
OMG, you got a bigger pair than I thought you did if you are calling someone on not answering questions. You have evaded at least 50 questions posed to you in this thread. Wow... [/QUOTE





Such as ?

 

[VeloZoooooooom]

Originally posted by crazy crowley
Such as ?

Hmmmm......lessee.....

How the bloody (bleep) can you state in any certain terms what Anquetil (we all bow our heads at the mention of the Holy Name) was thinking?!?!?!?!

How do you know where and when he began his power application in the pedal stroke?

Did they even use terms like power application in reference to cycling in those days?

In the days before cycling ergometers how do you even know there was "mysterious extra pedal power"?

Maybe he was just that much stronger than everyone else?

How do you know it was extra when you can't know for sure what the baseline power was?

Neglecting for the moment a few questions I have about your apparent prescience and insight into the vaunted (but dead) head of Mr. JA, based solely on having watched videos, and letting the facts as presented by Mr. Stern speak for themsleves, the most critical point I'm faced with is this: if this 'linear' pedalling method is so bloody effective, why are you not atop the podium, enjoying the attentions of comely young lasses in yellow dresses, along side Messrs. Armstrong and Ulrich?

so noel, do you have your money ready?

what i'm asking for is some substatiated evidence that it works.


what we're asking for, and of course $10K is at stake here, is some empirical evidence that it works. without that, how do we know that your evidence (i.e., presenting a group of 'healed' cyclists isn't biased).


what's required to satisfy those that have asked, is some empircal proof.

There are more I could pick out but I am bored of this and you surely have gotten the point by now....er....I take that back, getting the point is obviously not what you do best. How bout a couple verifiable answers Noel? Frankly, I dont' think you have any.

 

[n crowley]

Originally posted by VeloZoooooooom
Hmmmm......lessee.....




There are more I could pick out but I am bored of this and you surely have gotten the point by now....er....I take that back, getting the point is obviously not what you do best. How bout a couple verifiable answers Noel? Frankly, I dont' think you have any.

A letter in " cycling magazine " and a post still available on
the Sportscience website confirms that I had made the Anquetil
breakthrough long before this video was released. I discovered
Anquetil's method when I attempted and succeeded in
biomechanically combining the upper body power of a normal
hand cranked trike rider with the leg power of a normal bike
rider. The advanatges continued to flow from there.
You can tell a lot about an individual from his posts and letters,
I have read all of yours on various forums and cyclingnews and
I may know more about you than you think.
What if all my claims are true, where does that leave all your
researchers over the past half century. Ric seeks documented
evidence. A group of students from SW TEXAS who were
undertaking a study on lower back pain were surprised at how
little published information was available about research on
that subject, yet volumes and volumes were available on the
round pedaling style. Can you tell me any useful information
one from get from all that data that could assist a rider today.
I have done more for cycling lower back pain victims in only
a few years of unpaid research than what all the researchers
have done together in the past hundred years.

 

[cabbage74]

Originally posted by crowley
The root cause of the pain is the continuous strain associated
with round pedaling, both in generating the pedal power and
having to support most of the upper body weight. Higher gears
should not cause back pain but with circular pedaling they do
because they are magnifying the strain that this power
generating technique places in the lower back area. It
can almost be compared to safe and dangerous weight lifting.
Anquetil's style hinges all power generating strain in the hips
and the working arms support all the upper body weight.
The result is a relaxed massaging effect on the lower back
and the higher the gear (within reason) the more of a
beneficial effect it has on the lower back.

Just a few questions, I'll be surprised if they are all answered.

How do you know the cause of the back pain being treated? Have you had any imaging taken (x-ray CT MRI etc?)

It it possible that the back pain you have experienced is due to stress fractures due to other activity, and has now healed therefore would be pain free in any activity?

Did you seek treatment from any chiropractors physiotherapists or similar qualified health practitioners?

You talk about generating the strain in the hips....Isn't the whole body connected? I believe (please do prove me wrong) that before you move either your arms or legs your Transverse Abdominis (and quite possibly Multifidus but I'm not sure on that one) contract to stabilise your back. And...in many people who have back their TA contracts AFTER the leg/arm has moved.

Is it possible your TA or multifidus are/were dysfunctional?

 

[n crowley]

Originally posted by cabbage74
Just a few questions, I'll be surprised if they are all answered.

How do you know the cause of the back pain being treated? Have you had any imaging taken (x-ray CT MRI etc?)

It it possible that the back pain you have experienced is due to stress fractures due to other activity, and has now healed therefore would be pain free in any activity?

Did you seek treatment from any chiropractors physiotherapists or similar qualified health practitioners?

You talk about generating the strain in the hips....Isn't the whole body connected? I believe (please do prove me wrong) that before you move either your arms or legs your Transverse Abdominis (and quite possibly Multifidus but I'm not sure on that one) contract to stabilise your back. And...in many people who have back their TA contracts AFTER the leg/arm has moved





Only saw these questions tonight, I have always had a bad back
and even bending down for a short period will cause pain.
I seriously injured my back when stupidly lifting incorrectly but now
any error in lifting even the lightest weight can cause problems.
In brief, I have to keep it free from strain at all times. I use lumbar
support when sitting and driving. But the strain of the round
pedaling style really caused torture and the time of commencement of the pain kept decreasing as every ride I did
and the pain that I endured was causing further injury between
the two discs. X-RAYS proved that. If I was to go out tomorrow
and use the round pedaling style the torture would still be there.
The beneficial effect that Anquetil's pedaling has on my back is
very noticeable. On the video of Anquetil's cycling career, the
proof was there in the remarkable statement of Anquetil's team
masseur on the condition of Anquetil's lower back, compared to
the backs of all other riders. The difference was such that it led
the masseur and many other people to believe that Anquetil's
mysterious extra power came from his lower back, it felt so strong. But I am confident that the reverse was true, Anquetil's
back was improved and strengthened by his technique while
the backs of all other riders were under continuous strain
during years of hard training and racing.

 

[J-MAT]

Originally posted by VeloZoooooooom
First, Ric is very knowledgable and is the first person to say that he does not know everything. You are way off base in this characterization of him. Each time he has posted on this he has referenced the evidence, not hos own personal knowledge. He even posted a link a study done on this subject, how does this translate into him considering himself the "sole arbiter of cycling knowledge"? I think it does not do that at all.

Second, using the anecdote of Armstrong doing ILT does not necessarily mean it is effective. Armstrong very well could/would have won five TdFs without ILT. He is clearly among the most gifted cyclists of our era and his focus on the Tour coupled with good genetics and good all-around trainging have given him the ability to dominate this one race like few others. This does not, however, translate into any sort of proof that ILT is or is not effective, the sample group is too small. Armstrong does a lot of training besides ILT which, even by its strongest proponents, is actually done a very very small percentage of a rider's total training time.

Tangental rant from a rickety soapbox- And btw, Ric is a far better coach than Carmicheal could ever hope to be. Carmicheal got where he is by shameless self-promotion and by being lucky enough to bag a star client who already had the genetic potential to achieve some great results. Lance could have gone with any number of coaches and still won 5 TdFs in a row. In this case it was the rider that made the coach, not the other way around. The real coach is the guy that can take someone with far less natural talent and hone those abilities into better results. (stepping off soapbox now....or at least until Noel ticks me off again)

coapman:

Your comments about Armstrong and Carmichael are curious to say the least.

It's interesting how someone who repairs computers in New York state is privy to coaching at the TDF level. How do you know so much??? Where do you get your information???

Results are the only thing that matter. Seems to me Carmichael has produced something. Funny thing is, Armstrong trusted his last shot at a successful career to Carmichael, and the results speak for themselves.

Haters who bag on others hate because they don't have any game themselves.

It seems all your posts are nothing but criticism. When are you going to stop talking ****, step up to the plate, put it on the line and give some training advice coach???

Additionally, don't you feel tacky being a human banner ad for your coach??? Most forum members can see your personal bias is quite obvious. Ric's fully grown. Let your boy speak for himself.

 

[VeloZoooooooom]

Originally posted by J-MAT
coapman:

Your comments about Armstrong and Carmichael are curious to say the least.

It's interesting how someone who repairs computers in New York state is privy to coaching at the TDF level. How do you know so much??? Where do you get your information???

Results are the only thing that matter. Seems to me Carmichael has produced something. Funny thing is, Armstrong trusted his last shot at a successful career to Carmichael, and the results speak for themselves.

Haters who bag on others hate because they don't have any game themselves.

It seems all your posts are nothing but criticism. When are you going to stop talking ****, step up to the plate, put it on the line and give some training advice coach???

Additionally, don't you feel tacky being a human banner ad for your coach??? Most forum members can see your personal bias is quite obvious. Ric's fully grown. Let your boy speak for himself.

'Tis true that results are the only thing that matter in this game and Armstrong got those results. I never said Carmicheal was a "bad" or "inept" coach, I simply feel that he is not the Ubercoach that so many make him out to be. I've read some of his theories and ideas and disagreed with some of them, as does my coach, and I feel that he (Carmicheal) is far from the most knowledgable or skilled coach out there. He lucked out with Armstrong, period.

How is criticism ****? Specific criticism is often the knife with which the **** is cut away. Noel has been espousing his ideas about the secret mysterious mystical pedaling of Anquetil for years and despite repeated requests over those years by many people for any sort of backing to his assertions whatsoever he continues to fail to produce them. My criticisms of Noel are born of his failure to back up his own arguments. Sorry if you don't like it, but that is what intellectual discourse is all about- point, counterpoint, rebuttal, and yes, criticism when it is deserved.

Human banner ad? LOL! So it is tacky to have respect for someone whom you consider a personal friend and to back that person in a discussion? Um, ok, whatever......

And since when does someone's profession and locale, especially in this day of instant, global, electronic communication, determine what sort of information they are privy to?