One More from the Noob: Tire Width Advice?



Originally Posted by alienator

So, we're past the "Alfeng imagines people don't work on their own bikes." Now we're on to "Alfeng doesn't know what all goes into modulation. Rim brake tracks flex under pressure and thus impose a modulating function on braking. Rubber, cork, and other such rim brake pads compress under braking, thus imposing another modulating function on braking. Disc brakes suffer not from such things, although I imagine you will argue that discs and disc pads do compress. While they do, you'll find that any mount they compress is uber small. Feel free to consult material science books to find such numbers.
Damn straight. I get a lesson in this whenever I switch from my old Ksyrium SLs to the Bontrager Races that came on my Madone. The higher rigidity of the sidewalls on the Mavics gives better modulation and stopping power. In brake performance rigidity is good, and it's difficult to do better than a well set up disk brake system. Not that I advocate disk brakes for all riders in all applications.
 
oldbobcat said:
Damn straight. I get a lesson in this whenever I switch from my old Ksyrium SLs to the Bontrager Races that came on my Madone. The higher rigidity of the sidewalls on the Mavics gives better modulation and stopping power. In brake performance rigidity is good, and it's difficult to do better than a well set up disk brake system. Not that I advocate disk brakes for all riders in all applications.
Yep. Disk brakes aren't a necessity. You can ride mountain bikes, cx bikes, touring bikes, and road bikes without them, but it's really hard to argue that brake modulation with disc brakes isn't better than with rim brakes.
 
Originally Posted by FlyingPancreas

Are there any of you who commute in the city either on more or less standard road bikes (23 - 25mm tires) or at/downward of 28mm? Just curious to know if I am asking for trouble by going that narrow.

The Specialized Sirrus Elite Disc and Fuji Absolute 1.1D are two models I'd really like to consider, among others, but don't know if I'd be making an error.
On road bikes the trend is toward wider rims and tires, usually 25mm.

For safety, tire size should be based on the rim width. Tires that are too narrow for the rim tend to corner on the sidewalls, diminishing handling. Tires that are too wide tend to roll off the rim. That also diminishes handling.

The rims on these sporty hybrids are designed for tires in the 32-45mm range. That said, I wouldn't hesitate to try, say, a 28mm tire on these rims, but I wouldn't get hung up about it. Select the style of bike that best suits your riding and then experiment with the rubber, within reason. A pair of Continental GP 4-Seasons in 28mm might be just the ticket for you, but I wouldn't go any narrower with these rims.
 
Originally Posted by alienator


Yep. Disk brakes aren't a necessity. You can ride mountain bikes, cx bikes, touring bikes, and road bikes without them, but it's really hard to argue that brake modulation with disc brakes isn't better than with rim brakes.
WHOA!

Well, isn't THAT interesting?
After saying that 'I' must not ride down "steep" (whatever THAT is supposed to be) paved mountain roads because I don't have disc brakes on my bike ... And now, alienator has to admit that they are not necessary.
As far as brake modulation with disc brakes being better, where are the numbers?

Where is the data?

There apparently isn't any and yet we are supposed to believe that the pronouncement makes it so ...

Ooh! Isn't it so, so CUTE how one of the Forum's "Liberal" champions who won't deny the hoax of "Global Warming" because the falsified data is somehow scientific in his world is able to nonetheless expect his pronouncements about modulation to be accepted just because he says it's so! Let's see ... Global Warming. Check.

Butterfly Effect. Check.
BUT WAIT!!!! How can the Butterfly Effect which infers that everything that Man does has a negative impact on the Environment be valid if alienator says that a 1% difference is "insignificant" UNLESS he deems it to be so? Houston.

We have a problem.
The Troll is trying to promulgate an inconsistent thought with that of his Collective ... But, he is not being inconsistent with his-and-their shifting, situational reality. Again, let me say that an engineer can spec the lever according to the materials involved to achieve the same net (perceived AND/OR actual) modulation and/or stopping power ... THAT's math ... But, if you actually knew how to use the formulas which you cut-and-paste as a pretense to understanding, then you would know that.
 
Ally, go ahead an try to find a post wherein I stated that disk brakes are a necessity. I'll wait, but FYI, you won't find a post that says that, implies that, or even hints at that. Yes, it's possible for an engineer to design a rim brake to maximize modulation.......for a set of specific pad properties as a function of a specific rim material and brake track treatment. Of course such a system will have sub-optimal performance with pads that don't have that same set of properties. You can of course do the same with disc brakes, and it's very likely the disc brake system will have better modulation. Certainly the disc brake system performance will be more consistent over a larger range of conditions. If you don't understand why this is, then you don't understand all the benefits of disc brakes over rim brakes. Your inability to stay on topic doesn't help you. Certainly your need to use red herrings, like your climate change retorts, doesn't achieve anything but to make your arguments look weak.
 
Originally Posted by alienator

Ally, go ahead an try to find a post wherein I stated that disk brakes are a necessity. I'll wait, but FYI, you won't find a post that says that, implies that, or even hints at that.

Yes, it's possible for an engineer to design a rim brake to maximize modulation.......for a set of specific pad properties as a function of a specific rim material and brake track treatment. Of course such a system will have sub-optimal performance with pads that don't have that same set of properties. You can of course do the same with disc brakes, and it's very likely the disc brake system will have better modulation. Certainly the disc brake system performance will be more consistent over a larger range of conditions. If you don't understand why this is, then you don't understand all the benefits of disc brakes over rim brakes.

Your inability to stay on topic doesn't help you. Certainly your need to use red herrings, like your climate change retorts, doesn't achieve anything but to make your arguments look weak.
Just another example of your inconsistency ...

What is sub-optimal?

What is optimal?

What is "likely" supposed to mean?

Where's the data?

How can you be certain without data?

Why is your flip remark that I may not understand "the benefits of disc brakes over rim brakes" supposed to be any more meaningful than my expositions & closing statements?

OH!

Those were the pronouncements of THE pseudo-intellectual Troll who knows all!

So it is said, so it is written!

All hail the Pharaoh ...

What are you now going to pretend that your "reason" & "critical thinking" were inferring with the following, bloviating canard?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alienator .

So, we're past the "Alfeng imagines people don't work on their own bikes." Now we're on to "Alfeng doesn't know what all goes into modulation. Rim brake tracks flex under pressure and thus impose a modulating function on braking. Rubber, cork, and other such rim brake pads compress under braking, thus imposing another modulating function on braking. Disc brakes suffer not from such things, although I imagine you will argue that discs and disc pads do compress. While they do, you'll find that any mount they compress is uber small. Feel free to consult material science books to find such numbers.

I assume from the way you talk, you've never had to brake really hard or haven't done steep mountain descents, so maybe your thoughts on brake modulation aren't very valuable. Anyone who's done hard braking or tried to go fast understands that with better modulation you can brake later and harder, meaning less time spent braking and more time spent going fast.

Of course, you completely overlook the location of disc brake rotors and rim brake tracks relative to the road, and especially the wet, the grit, and other stuff on the road. Now, let's play a little thought experiment. Which braking surface, the disc or the rim brake track, is most likely to be covered in the afore mentioned stuff?

As for motorcycle racing crashes, I'll entertain your questions when you actually know what you're talking about, old man. I'm sure you think that you've learned everything there is to know about hard braking on your Rube Goldberg machines, but there yet remains huge differences between braking on those and braking at much higher speeds on 400lb or more motorcycles. You should also poll everyone who's ever raced a motorcycle to find how many haven't crashed, senile old man.

Oh, your application of the scientific method is in error, scientifically illiterate old man. To help you, however, I've stated several times here that I do my own wrenching, befuddled old man.

What we have here is just another denial of prior statements on YOUR part when you are confronted with reality.

AND, now you are pretending that you are qualifying your statement about disc brake by saying "better modulation" when there is NO PROOF of any kind ...
Where is the proof?

Where are the numbers?

You have stated zero basis other than your opinion.

To restate in another way:

"How can modulation with disc brakes be better if you were unable to effectively use it which resulted in your crashing your motorcycle?"

What?

Couldn't you repeat a known process?

If not, why not?

If modulation with your disc brakes is so much better then shouldn't you have been able to control your motorcycle?

You know, squeeze the brake lever a certain, repeatable amount to slow the bike down INSTEAD OF probably-and-presumably inadvertently locking the brakes up & skidding & crashing ...

I mean, you didn't deliberately use the added stopping power of your motorcycles disc brakes to lock up the brakes, or did you?!?

Did other people crash in the same location on the same day?

If you were not able to control your motorcycle, then how would disc brakes not be overkill on a Road bicycle which weighs 1/20th as much?
Maybe YOU need to learn how to do some calculations so that you will then know how far you can squeeze the brake lever prior to locking up the brakes on your bike when the intent was to modulate them ...

Let's see some numbers.

It will be for YOUR benefit more than our's since it is you who do not know how to effectively use modulation with a system which you claim has better modulation.

Show "us" the numbers & not just more chaff!!!

BTW. I need to reiterate that I do not dispute that disc brakes may have a benefit for SOME Mountain bike riders in some riding conditions, but disc brakes are little more than an unnecessary "pet rock" for 99.99% of Road bike riding UNLESS a person's rides has him-or-her toddling down a bike path where one will undoubtedly find a disproportionate number of bikes equipped with disc brakes because at those slow speeds the appearance is more important than the actual form-and-function.
 
Optimal: would be the operation of the system specified by your rim brake engineer Sub-optimal: would be the operation of the system when it didn't quite achieve it's optimal performance So, let's be clear here: it's your belief that rim brakes provide better modulation than disc brakes or that they provide equal modulation, no matter the conditions, right? I don't have the following:
  • time and temperature dependent friction coefficients or functions for rim brake pads
  • strain function(s) (time and temperature dependent) for brake cable
  • temperature dependent compressibility function for brake fluids
  • deformation functions (pressure and temperature dependent in the direction of brake force application) for disc rotors and bicycle rims
It's highly unlikely that any such information on brake pads will be available as that information is very likely closely guarded by manufacturer's of brake pads, if for no other reason than pad manufacturers are very likely loathe to give out their pad formulations. In fact, I can guarantee they won't. The above information also does not take into account brake track material or treatment. Without all that data, it's not possible to build a credible model. I'm willing to setup a test bench if you're willing to raise the funds to do so. We could do it via Kickstarter. As for what equipment will be needed, in the very least we'll need the following:
  • an electric motor
  • an hydraulic disc brake system
  • a cable disc brake system
  • and a cable rim brake system
  • a rear disc wheel and rotor
  • a rear rim brake wheel (hubs need to be as identical as possible as do spoke count, lacing pattern, spokes, and etc)
  • a cassette or cog made to work on a freehub
  • an axle for both hubs with a rotary encoder (for measuring angular velocity)
  • a data acquisition card to capture signal from rotary encoder and from motor drive
  • software to accept signal input and to provide control output to motor (I prefer LabVIEW)
We'll also need to measure the the moment of inertia of each wheel. We can then normalize braking force curves by a moment of inertia factor. We should also rent an IR fluke with a signal output so that we can capture brake track temp data as a function of time. We'll of course need to add a money as no doubt some needs won't become apparent until testing starts (at least the testing of the experimental setup). it probably won't be practical to try every brake pad/rotor material/design/rim brake caliper/rim design out there, so we'll have to decide what will be acceptable. I have sent an email off to an independent testing lab to see if they have or would consider such testing. Our Kickstarter funding could be used instead to pay to have the tests done. Edit: we'll also need a probe to apply braking force to the lever, and that probe will need to have a signal out so that we can measure said force.
 
Originally Posted by alienator

Optimal: would be the operation of the system specified by your rim brake engineer
Sub-optimal: would be the operation of the system when it didn't quite achieve it's optimal performance

So, let's be clear here: it's your belief that rim brakes provide better modulation than disc brakes or that they provide equal modulation, no matter the conditions, right? I don't have the following:
  • time and temperature dependent friction coefficients or functions for rim brake pads
  • strain function(s) (time and temperature dependent) for brake cable
  • temperature dependent compressibility function for brake fluids
  • deformation functions (pressure and temperature dependent in the direction of brake force application) for disc rotors and bicycle rims

It's highly unlikely that any such information on brake pads will be available as that information is very likely closely guarded by manufacturer's of brake pads, if for no other reason than pad manufacturers are very likely loathe to give out their pad formulations. In fact, I can guarantee they won't. The above information also does not take into account brake track material or treatment. Without all that data, it's not possible to build a credible model. I'm willing to setup a test bench if you're willing to raise the funds to do so. We could do it via Kickstarter. As for what equipment will be needed, in the very least we'll need the following:
  • an electric motor
  • an hydraulic disc brake system
  • a cable disc brake system
  • and a cable rim brake system
  • a rear disc wheel and rotor
  • a rear rim brake wheel (hubs need to be as identical as possible as do spoke count, lacing pattern, spokes, and etc)
  • a cassette or cog made to work on a freehub
  • an axle for both hubs with a rotary encoder (for measuring angular velocity)
  • a data acquisition card to capture signal from rotary encoder and from motor drive
  • software to accept signal input and to provide control output to motor (I prefer LabVIEW)

We'll also need to measure the the moment of inertia of each wheel. We can then normalize braking force curves by a moment of inertia factor. We should also rent an IR fluke with a signal output so that we can capture brake track temp data as a function of time. We'll of course need to add a money as no doubt some needs won't become apparent until testing starts (at least the testing of the experimental setup). it probably won't be practical to try every brake pad/rotor material/design/rim brake caliper/rim design out there, so we'll have to decide what will be acceptable.

I have sent an email off to an independent testing lab to see if they have or would consider such testing. Our Kickstarter funding could be used instead to pay to have the tests done.

Edit: we'll also need a probe to apply braking force to the lever, and that probe will need to have a signal out so that we can measure said force.
I don't see any numbers ...

Based on your apparent use of the term "rant" in the past ... I see that YOU have posted a rant ...

So, what's with the rant?
Based on your prior, frequent requests for substantiating data, I can only ask ...
"Where are the numbers?"
Herein, we see you have no proof ... only bloviating ... Are you going to deny that in the past you have inferred-and/or-stated that "optimal" could not be defined, and yet you are herein attempting to suggest that it can be. ALAS. As has been the observed in the past, your world is situational ... MOI?

I thought that in a previous thread that you said that the Momentum of Inertia wasn't significant.

But, as in the past, in alienator's world, it is you who arbitrarily decides when something is "significant" and when it is not.

BTW. I did not say that rim brakes were better ... You said that disc brakes were better ...

And then, you failed to back it up with any substantial reason ...

And, you have demonstrated a lack of understanding of modulation ... OR, "Modulation" ...

In YOUR world where-and-when you have questioned other people's remarks, you have not qualified the alternative ...

MY point is that you have previously made a statement which YOU have failed to substantiate with data.

So, what's with the inclusion of additional parameter "no matter the conditions"?

Did you do someone who has "critical thinking" & understands braking systems clue you in on what was missing in your previous remarks?


Well, a Road bicycle does not encounter "no matter the conditions" situations ...

Regardless, as I have stated, an engineer can spec the lever to accommodate the characteristics of the materials used in a braking system to affect the modulation which the rider has + the "stopping power" ...

THAT'S MATH!!!!!!

But. I suppose in the situational world in which alienator defines on an ad hoc basis, math doesn't matter, now.

AGAIN. I suppose that it is YOU who do not believe in the "scientific method" of ensuring a repeatable response to a given input because if you had you would have learned the parameters of the disc brakes on your motorcycle ...

Couldn't you repeat a known process?

If not, why not?

If modulation with your disc brakes is so much better then shouldn't you have been able to control your motorcycle BECAUSE wouldn't the response have been the same as in prior applications?

You know, squeeze the brake lever a certain, repeatable amount to slow the bike down INSTEAD OF probably-and-presumably inadvertently locking the brakes up & skidding & crashing ...

I mean, you didn't deliberately use the added stopping power of your motorcycles disc brakes to lock up the brakes, or did you?!?

Did other people crash in the same location on the same day?

Apparently, based on your experience-of-one, it could be suggested that disc brakes are NOT better ...

OR, perhaps it should now be added that your situational world doesn't always translate to the Real World despite whatever lack of "reason, (and) critical thinking" you have.

------

It has been observed by others that proclaimed "Liberals" and "Progressives" lack consistency ... and, YOU are proof that the label "hypocrite" is a valid appellation.
 
Quote:Originally Posted by oldbobcat .Damn straight. I get a lesson in this whenever I switch from my old Ksyrium SLs to the Bontrager Races that came on my Madone. The higher rigidity of the sidewalls on the Mavics gives better modulation and stopping power. In brake performance rigidity is good, and it's difficult to do better than a well set up disk brake system. Not that I advocate disk brakes for all riders in all applications.


I'm going to state something which should be obvious, but may not be ... If you did not adjust your brake pad offset from the braking surface when you swapped wheels, then the relative "modulation and stopping power" will feel different because in a mechanical braking system your fingers are an additional lever in the system.
  • To that end, as I believe that I have stated in the past, MY preference is for the brake pads on my Road brake's to be somewhere between 3-to-4mm away from the rim's brake surface ... THAT means that the levers are about halfway to the handlebars BEFORE the pads make contact with the rim ...
When I first saw how this one, local shop set up all the bikes of the people with whom I was riding at the time who had bought their bikes from the particular shop, I was actually a bit shocked when I saw that their pads were only about 2mm away from the rim, maybe slightly under (i.e., certainly no more than a 14g spoke).
  • When I queried one of the riders, he said that he LIKED it that way because it allowed him to "pulse" the brake(s). Interesting, but not for me. I prefer to receive the real-or-imagined feedback (whatever THAT is) & perceived control of-and-from being able to squeeze the brake levers and then having the bike slow OR stop, accordingly.
THAT may be a long way of saying that if you aren't adjusting your calipers when you change wheels that you may actually be experiencing better (that is, more comfortable) HAND leverage with the MAVIC Ksyrium SSC SL wheels because ...
  • the bead-to-bead dimension of the Ksyrium SSC SL (both clincher AND tubular) is 13mm ... the bead-to-bead dimension of the Bontrager Race (AFAIK) is 17mm (17.5mm?) Which means that the braking surface of the Bontrager Race wheels is ~4mm wider, or potentially a~2mm difference on each side ...
Since your Madone came with the Bontragers, I presume that the brakes are set up for those wheels ... And, the offset may now be more when you install the particular MAVIC wheelset. So, without knowing where your pad offset begins, if you are not making adjustments with your brake calipers when you change wheels, then you may want to replicate the offset that the pads have when your Ksyrium SSC SL wheelset is in your bike when your Bontrager wheels are subsequently installed, and vice-versa (to truly "test" the difference) for a few rides ... BUT, if your pads ARE adjusted, accordingly, then never mind (but, clarify THAT to be the case) because UNLESS your Bontrager's braking surface has worn thin and are about to fail, then I reckon that the odds that you cannot actually deform/(compress) them more with rubber brake pads than you can the MAVIC's braking surface AND there may be other factors than the one which you have suggested.
 
OK, alf, you're the smartest guy in the room, but you're also a presumptuous twit, and this is getting so beside the point that I have nothing else to say.
 
Originally Posted by oldbobcat
OK, alf, you're the smartest guy in the room, but you're also a presumptuous twit, and this is getting so beside the point that I have nothing else to say.
Really?

Geez. I don't know what the story is in Boulder ...

Because, if 'I' had intended to be "a presumptuous twit," then I would have started by saying that "I presume you didn't bother to adjust your brake pad offset," and then gone on from there with an explanation of how I believe that a person's hand can-or-should also be considered as a component in a mechanical braking system found on most bikes, etc.

Regardless, if you have taken offense because of clumsy wording on my part, then please accept my apologies.

Now, YOUR earlier post which I was using as springboard begs the question ...

To which portion of alienator's post did the "Damn straight" refer?

Were you agreeing to the snarky portion of the parroting Troll's post OR his unsubstantiated claims regarding the different materials available for a bicycle's braking system?

Both?

I don't know.

You tell me.

No matter.

Without knowing what you edited, I think it could have been more beneficial for OTHER READERS OF THIS THREAD if you had EITHER simply stated that you are now keen to test your Bontragers with more brake pad offset so that you can better assess the difference which rim stiffness may-or-may-not have & thereby refute-or-confirm MY observation that how the pads are offset will affect the real-or-perceived "modulation" OR you could have clarified that you always adjust the offset of your pads according to the wheelset & that you were basing your observation thereupon ...

Regardless, while there may be a legitimate reason for MTBers to have disc brakes, alienator (who ALMOST ALWAYS asks other people to provide numerical proof) had-and-has failed to give any numerical "proof" to clarify why disc brakes may also be better for Road bikes (and especially, for 90% of the bikes which have them other than for cosmetic reasons ... a MORE VALID reason, IMO, than a non-existent for those riders need for the qualities which disc brakes may-or-may-not bring to rider's experience).

Long time readers of this Forum might have been as surprised as I would have been that alienator didn't disqualify your observation as being an-example-of-only-one & not scientific since you did not provide any numerical data, but 'I' already know that he is a hypocritical Troll.

BTW. I think that it's worth noting that alienator has still failed to state why disc brakes can be a better choice for many MTBer (I know why, but apparently he doesn't ... let's see if alienator can glean that information from some more Internet searches between now & some future date) ...

If alienator truly believed what he has written regarding the advantage of the materials used in disc brakes, then he would be using (¿custom?) steel rims + (either) sintered brake pads (or, custom "ceramic" pads or pads made with whatever material he deems to be superior to "rubber" or "cork") BECAUSE if it is a matter of this-or-that, then those factors could certainly be replicated in the rim + pad material ...

BUT, since alienator has previously failed to state why disc brakes can be a better choice, he is clearly parroting what he has read someone else write ...

  • Maybe alienator can work in Hooke's Law OR some other unrelated formula into this thread!!!
 
I agree completely with oldbobcat Apparently someone is "parroting" when they say something you either don't understand (i.e. anything related to science or engineering) or when they say something that you don't agree with. Yep, as I admitted I don't have numbers, but I do have something you don't: common sense and science and engineering education and intuition. Both common sense and that intuition agree that it's very likely (with very being a lot more than you could possibly understand) that disc brakes do have better modulation. In fact I'd be real money that if your brake specialist set up those magical rim brakes you imagined with that special magical lever (the one infused with pixie dust) that somehow accounted the variation in compression of a brake pad with temptation and force; the deflection of the rim as a function of temperature and force; and the drag and strain in the cable brake line that another brake specialist could set up either a cable actuated disc brake or an hydraulic disc brake that would have better modulation than your unicorn made rim brake system. Now, since you've yet to offer anything of substance on the issue and since things have degenerated to the point where your text formatting has moved beyond the normal ridiculous and into the irretrievably stupid, I'm done with thread.
 
alienator said:
I agree completely with oldbobcat Apparently someone is "parroting" when they say something you either don't understand (i.e. anything related to science or engineering) or when they say something that you don't agree with. Yep, as I admitted I don't have numbers, but I do have something you don't: common sense and science and engineering education and intuition. Both common sense and that intuition agree that it's very likely (with very being a lot more than you could possibly understand) that disc brakes do have better modulation. In fact I'd be real money that if your brake specialist set up those magical rim brakes you imagined with that special magical lever (the one infused with pixie dust) that somehow accounted the variation in compression of a brake pad with temptation and force; the deflection of the rim as a function of temperature and force; and the drag and strain in the cable brake line that another brake specialist could set up either a cable actuated disc brake or an hydraulic disc brake that would have better modulation than your unicorn made rim brake system. Now, since you've yet to offer anything of substance on the issue and since things have degenerated to the point where your text formatting has moved beyond the normal ridiculous and into the irretrievably stupid, I'm done with thread.
Interesting ... Very interesting! So, you "completely agree" that I am "the smartest guy in the room" ... !!! Well, thanks for that acknowledgement despite your subsequent arm flailing rant ...
  • REGARDLESS, I will only acknowlege to being smarter than you.
FYI. You are parroting because you clearly don't understand what you are echoing ... If you used some of that supposed "common sense and science and engineering education and intuition" which you say I am lacking then you would be able to discern that a number of posts which you insist are accurate are simply wrong. But, if you were capable of "critical thinking" then you would be able to figure it out. Again ...
  • If you understand modulation as well as you claim to, then tell us HOW it is you crashed and the other riders apparently didn't?
Using one's brakes is a repeatable process, isn't it?
  • You do know how to repeat a process, don't you?
Or, didn't you practice? You do realize that you have to practice things which involve muscle memory, don't you? Hmmm ... Apparently, NOT!! Unfortunately, you continue to conflate greater stopping power with greater modulation ... Maybe yes, maybe no. But, maybe you didn't "listen" to your lecturer when s/he explained that the two do NOT go hand-in-hand. Even so, if you had the ability to "reason" then you might know that. --------- If YOU truly believed what you have written regarding the advantage of the materials used in disc brakes, then you would be using (¿custom?) steel rims + (either) sintered brake pads (or, custom "ceramic" pads or pads made with whatever material you deem to be superior to "rubber" or "cork") BECAUSE if it is a matter of this-or-that, then those factors could certainly be replicated in the rim + pad material ... BUT, since YOU have previously failed to state why disc brakes can be a better choice, you are clearly parroting what he has read someone else write ...
  • I don't know how "common sense" and "intution" which are as far from "science" are a valid reason to believe that "disc brakes ... have better modulation."
Of course, I suppose that in YOUR situational world it is valid enough proof-of-some-sort. And so, because you apparently don't have a true response you claim that you are now bowing out of this thread for other reasons. Good. Maybe, you can exit this Forum, too ... Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
 
Hydraulic braking systems on a motorcycle are a piece of cake to look after (replace fluid, bleed, change pads/rotors etc) - I can only imagine that a hydraulic system on a push bike would be even easier. Changing the fluid is definitely easier than rethreading a used inner cable that's unravelled a little, that's for sure. I'd like to give a high end system a go. I'm somewhat sceptical that'll it'll be night and day different than a dura ace traditional setup on aluminum rims but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. Wet braking will be no contest. One area that would be much better for the disk brakes - carbon clincher use. Since the rim no longer has to deal with braking forces on the sidewall it'll allow for slightly different design possibilities and probably bring deep rim prices down.
 
Reading these posts is like following a debate between Richard Dawkins and the Archbishop of Canterbury! I'm just not sure which one is which.
 
I have a Jamis Coda Sport that I use for commuting. About 25 miles on rough country roads. I've used both 28 and 32 tires and haven't noticed that much difference. I seem to have fewer flats with the 28s pumped to 75 psi than I do with the 32s running at a lower pressure. The steel frame absorbs a lot of road shock. I've tried doing the same ride on an aluminum frame bike with 28 tires and that does make you want more cushion. With the Jamis I have a pretty good position for a long commute--not too upright but still where I can see well.