One rule for cyclists and one for pedestrians?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by J Asking, Jan 23, 2003.

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  1. J Asking

    J Asking Guest

    If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
    footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?
     
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  2. J Asking wrote:
    > =

    > If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
    > footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?

    Of course it's ok. I'm happy that the car drivers want to make sure I know they are approaching. But
    if they honk simultaniously as they pass me, the signal is of no use to me.

    btw, what are the pedestrians innocent of?

    g=F6ran
     
  3. Michael

    Michael Guest

    Of course there are completely different rules for pedestrians. They're not vehicles for a start.

    J Asking wrote:
    > If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
    > footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?

    1) Cyclists are not allowed on footpaths. They do share "dual use" paths. Your local laws may vary.

    2) Bell != horn. Horns are an emergency warning, but bells are to let people know you are there.
    This convention goes way back to the horse and buggy days. Or reindeer sleys.

    It is NOT OK for a car to use the horn, except in emergency in most western countries AFAIK.

    In china, trucks must honk before passing a cyclist on country roads. This can get annoying after a
    while. :) Its not like you cnat hear them anyway!

    I take it you got scared by a bell? Where I live, pedestrians are quite used to it, and just move
    left if they are blocking the path.
     
  4. On 29 Nov 2002 00:35:46 -0800, [email protected] (J Asking) from
    http://groups.google.com/ wrote:

    >If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
    >footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?

    Do whatever you want with your horn. No one cares.

    --
    http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace clip cuts the tribal and clean Shemps
    8:59:25 AM 29 November 2002
     
  5. Rich Clark

    Rich Clark Guest

    "J Asking" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
    > footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?

    These are not analogous relationships.

    Assuming you're really talking about a multi-use path, where both cyclists and pedestrians are in
    fact entitled to be, then the rules of the path are applicable. What defines "OK" are the posted
    rules, plus courtesy and safety considerations. (If it's really a "footpath," then a bike shouldn't
    be on it at all.) Signalling peds that you're approaching is often either required or indicated.

    On the road, almost everywhere in the US, both the car and the bike are governed by traffic laws.
    The cyclist has the same rights and responsibilities as any other vehicle. The car driver who honks
    when approaching a cyclist is making it clear that he doesn;'t really understand this, since it's
    the responsibility of the passing vehicle to do so safely or not at all, and the rules and methods
    for passing are clearly laid out in the traffic code. If a vehicle is passing safely, warning the
    vehicle being passed should not be necessary, and may cause confusion.

    RichC
     
  6. For me it's a matter of how the bell or horn are used. In both cases the insistent "get out of my
    way" (honk or ring) are obnoxious while the gentle "I'm just letting you know I'm here" version is
    ubiquitous.

    "J Asking" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
    > footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?
     
  7. Comutrbob

    Comutrbob Guest

    >If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
    >footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?

    South Carolina law says it pretty well. I'm paraphrasing here, but the law encourages motorists to
    give a light tap on the horn some distance before they overtake a cyclist. It specifically says they
    should not lay on the horn or use the horn too close to the cyclist because of the danger of
    startling the cyclist.

    FWIW,

    Bob C.
     
  8. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (J Asking) writes:
    > If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
    > footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?

    No. But it's okay for car drivers to ring their bells as they approach cyclists.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD

    remove NO_SPAM. from address to reply
     
  9. Edward Dike

    Edward Dike Guest

    Rich Clark <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    |
    | "J Asking" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    | news:[email protected]...
    | > If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
    | > footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?
    |
    | These are not analogous relationships.
    |
    | Assuming you're really talking about a multi-use path, where both cyclists and pedestrians are in
    | fact entitled to be, then the rules of the path are applicable. What defines "OK" are the posted
    | rules, plus courtesy and
    safety
    | considerations. (If it's really a "footpath," then a bike shouldn't be on
    it
    | at all.) Signalling peds that you're approaching is often either required or indicated.
    |
    | On the road, almost everywhere in the US, both the car and the bike are governed by traffic laws.
    | The cyclist has the same rights and responsibilities as any other vehicle. The car driver who
    | honks when approaching a cyclist is making it clear that he doesn;'t really
    understand
    | this, since it's the responsibility of the passing vehicle to do so safely or not at all, and the
    | rules and methods for passing are clearly laid out
    in
    | the traffic code. If a vehicle is passing safely, warning the vehicle
    being
    | passed should not be necessary, and may cause confusion.
    |
    | RichC
    |
    To me, the distant horn tap from the approaching motorist is a welcome sound, which I will typically
    acknowledge with a friendly wave. Almost instantly, many things are communicated: There is a
    car/truck approaching( at a distance I can somewhat judge) The motorist sees me, and with my
    acknowledging wave, knows I am aware of their presence.
    (S)he has an understanding of safe bicycle/motor vehicle encounters.
    (T)he is not going to sneak up on me and (undeservedly) lay on the horn, or intentionally do
    something to surprise me.

    I find it to be an act of great courtesy on the part of the motorist, and one I extend as a motorist
    to other cyclists.

    Of far greater import than: "...governed by traffic laws.... cyclist has the same rights and
    responsibilities as any other vehicle.. ...the traffic code." is the desire on my part, as well as
    most motorists to remain safe, which can be maintained with greater efficacy by simple, common
    sense, human courtesy beyond the observation of legal responsibilities which enforce only the
    lowest common denominator of any behavior. ED3
     
  10. Michael wrote:
    > It is NOT OK for a car to use the horn, except in emergency in most western countries AFAIK.

    In Ohio the law states that you must sound the horn before passing anyone (bicycle, automobile, or
    otherwise). I have never seen this law observed.

    --
    Joshua E. Rodd <[email protected]
     
  11. On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Edward Dike, III wrote:

    > You response indicates you recognize neither the message, nor the messenger, and that you would
    > prefer to be surprised by an overtaking vehicle, as opposed to learning of its presence several
    > seconds beforehand.

    Why does it matter as long as you're passed safely with sufficient room? In any case, a honk from
    behind you is much more surprising and alarming than being passed.

    > My scenario is not one of urban rush-hour traffic where the constant presence of motor vehicles is
    > a given, but rather situations where motor traffic is somewhat rarer occurrence.

    In which case you can almost invariably hear the approaching vehicle anyway.

    > To boil it down to a more simple statement, it implied the value of courtesy by, and for all
    > parties.

    It is not "courtesy", it is improper use of a horn.

    --
    Benjamin Lewis

    A small, but vocal, contingent even argues that tin is superior, but they are held by most to be the
    lunatic fringe of Foil Deflector Beanie science.
     
  12. On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Edward Dike, III wrote:

    > a 1/2 second tap of the horn, 1/4 mile behind, is not a traumatic experience.

    Nor is a passing car.

    > Helmet strap noise is frequently louder to the ear than the wheels of an approaching vehicle.

    You must have a very noisy helmet.

    > Making an unobvious presence known is not improper use of the horn, it is safe vehicle operation.

    Here's a quote from the California Driver Handbook. I believe most places have similar guidelines:

    ,----[ from 2002 California Driver Handbook ]
    |
    | - Use your horn when necessary to avoid accidents. Don't honk at other times.
    |
    `----

    --
    Benjamin Lewis

    A small, but vocal, contingent even argues that tin is superior, but they are held by most to be the
    lunatic fringe of Foil Deflector Beanie science.
     
  13. On 29 Nov 2002, [email protected] wrote:

    >> If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
    >> footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?
    >
    > South Carolina law says it pretty well. I'm paraphrasing here, but the law encourages motorists to
    > give a light tap on the horn some distance before they overtake a cyclist. It specifically says
    > they should not lay on the horn or use the horn too close to the cyclist because of the danger of
    > startling the cyclist.

    You mean this one?

    ,----
    | SECTION 56-5-4960. Use of horn. [SC ST SEC 56-5-4960]
    |
    | The driver of a motor vehicle shall, when reasonably necessary to insure safe operation, give
    | audible warning with his horn but shall not otherwise use such horn when upon a highway.
    `----

    I can't find anything else that's relevant, perhaps you'd like to give us an actual cite?

    --
    Benjamin Lewis

    A small, but vocal, contingent even argues that tin is superior, but they are held by most to be the
    lunatic fringe of Foil Deflector Beanie science.
     
  14. "Göran Thyberg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]... J Asking wrote:
    >
    > If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
    > footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?

    The technique that I like to use is to quietly pull up behind old people and give them a blast with
    my airhorn and watch them jump out of their "Depends" or fill them as such may be the case.

    Just kidding, a ping on a bell or making some kind of noise to let the innocent pedestrians know
    that you are there is appropriate behavior.

    Prof
     
  15. John Foltz

    John Foltz Guest

    Rich Clark <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > To me, the distant horn tap from the approaching motorist is a welcome sound, which I will
    > typically acknowledge with a friendly wave. Almost instantly, many things are communicated: There
    > is a car/truck approaching (at a distance I can somewhat judge) The motorist sees me, and with my
    > acknowledging wave, knows I am aware of their presence. (S)he has an understanding of safe
    > bicycle/motor vehicle encounters. (S)he is not going to sneak up on me and (undeservedly) lay on
    > the horn, or intentionally do something to surprise me.
    >
    >
    >
    I've got to disagree here. Your attitude implies a lack of experience in vehicular riding. On the
    road, the overtaking vehicle is responsible to pass in a safe manner, because the vehicle in front
    has the right of way. Why would you want to warn a vehicle that you are there, if that vehicle has
    the right of way?

    It is the responsibility of the vehicle in front to behave in a predictable manner, usually to
    maintain constant speed and heading. If a vehicle needs to honk at you prior to passing, it means
    that a) the driver does not understand his/her responsibilities WRT traffic code, or b) you are not
    behaving in a predictable manner.
    --

    John Foltz --- O _ Baron --- _O _ V-Rex 24/63 --- _\\/\-%)
    _________(_)`=()___________________(_)= (_)_____
     
  16. Rich Clark

    Rich Clark Guest

    "Joshua E. Rodd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:OSMF9.55682$%[email protected]...
    > Michael wrote:
    > > It is NOT OK for a car to use the horn, except in emergency in most western countries AFAIK.
    >
    > In Ohio the law states that you must sound the horn before passing anyone (bicycle, automobile, or
    > otherwise). I have never seen this law observed.

    I found this... "By law In Ohio, a passing motorist must signal before passing a slower vehicle and
    the motorist is negligent if he fails to do so. Typically, this means sound a horn during daytime or
    flash the high beams during nighttime. However, Ohio courts have also held that a horn blown in an
    untimely fashion which might scare a cyclist and causes the cyclist to move unexpectedly or lose
    control is also negligence."

    ...at this website: http://www.brown.twp.franklin.oh.us/bicycles.htm

    RichC
     
  17. Rich Clark

    Rich Clark Guest

    "Edward Dike, III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > To me, the distant horn tap from the approaching motorist is a welcome sound, which I will
    > typically acknowledge with a friendly wave. Almost instantly, many things are communicated: There
    > is a car/truck approaching( at a distance I can somewhat judge)

    Or not. The horn can mean anything. It usually means "fuck you" around here. Besides, it's not the
    driver's responsibility to make his presense know to vehicles in front of him. It's you
    responsibility to be aware of the traffic around you.

    > The motorist sees me, and with my acknowledging wave, knows I am aware of their presence.
    > (S)he has an understanding of safe bicycle/motor vehicle encounters.

    Clearly not, since honking at cyclists is not usually safe for the cyclist.

    > (S)he is not going to sneak up on me and (undeservedly) lay on the horn,
    or
    > intentionally do something to surprise me.

    You're reading her mind, now?

    > I find it to be an act of great courtesy on the part of the motorist, and one I extend as a
    > motorist to other cyclists.

    Please stay the hell away from me when you're driving your car, then.
    >
    > Of far greater import than: "...governed by traffic laws.... cyclist has the same rights and
    > responsibilities as any other vehicle.. ...the traffic code." is the desire on my part, as well
    > as most motorists to remain safe, which can be maintained with greater efficacy by simple, common
    > sense, human courtesy beyond the observation of legal responsibilities which enforce only the
    > lowest common denominator of any behavior.

    Can I have some of whatever you're smoking, Ed?

    I don't know where you live. Maybe your approach actually works there. But in the large population
    centers where most cyclists live and ride a car horn is almost never sounded as a "courtesy."

    RichC
     
  18. In article <[email protected]>, "Prof. Wilhelm von de Leihavon"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Göran Thyberg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]... J Asking wrote:
    > >
    > > If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
    > > footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?
    >
    > The technique that I like to use is to quietly pull up behind old people and give them a blast
    > with my airhorn and watch them jump out of their "Depends" or fill them as such may be the case.
    >
    > Just kidding, a ping on a bell or making some kind of noise to let the innocent pedestrians know
    > that you are there is appropriate behavior.

    Heck, unless you have been climbing too hard, a courteous "heads up!" is enough.

    If people here have real problems on MUPs, they should put a little jingle bell on their bicycle. I
    saw a mountain biker with this feature, and thought it an excellent idea for any bike/ped shared
    paths. I have salvaged a jingle bell for just such a purpose.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] (trim trailing t), www.sfu.ca/~rcousine FREE WINONA!
     
  19. Edward Dike

    Edward Dike Guest

    John Foltz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    | Rich Clark <[email protected]> wrote in message
    | news:[email protected]...
    | > To me, the distant horn tap from the approaching motorist is a welcome sound, which I will
    | > typically acknowledge with a friendly wave. Almost instantly, many things are communicated:
    | > There is a car/truck approaching (at a distance I can somewhat judge) The motorist sees me, and
    | > with my acknowledging wave, knows I am aware of their presence. (S)he has an understanding of
    | > safe bicycle/motor vehicle encounters. (S)he is not going to sneak up on me and (undeservedly)
    | > lay on the horn, or intentionally do something to surprise me.
    | >
    | >
    | >
    | I've got to disagree here. Your attitude implies a lack of experience in vehicular riding. On the
    | road, the overtaking vehicle is responsible to pass in a safe manner, because the vehicle in front
    | has the right of way. Why would you want to warn a vehicle that you are there, if that vehicle has
    | the right of way?
    |
    | It is the responsibility of the vehicle in front to behave in a predictable manner, usually to
    | maintain constant speed and heading. If a vehicle needs to honk at you prior to passing, it means
    | that a) the driver does not understand his/her responsibilities WRT traffic code, or b) you are
    | not behaving in a predictable manner.
    | --
    |
    | John Foltz --- O _ Baron --- _O _ V-Rex 24/63 --- _\\/\-%)
    | _________(_)`=()___________________(_)= (_)_____
    |

    You response indicates you recognize neither the message, nor the messenger, and that you would
    prefer to be surprised by an overtaking vehicle, as opposed to learning of its presence several
    seconds beforehand. My scenario is not one of urban rush-hour traffic where the constant presence
    of motor vehicles is a given, but rather situations where motor traffic is somewhat rarer
    occurrence. To boil it down to a more simple statement, it implied the value of courtesy by, and
    for all parties. I am uncertain what ''vehicular riding'' is, so I cannot quantify my experiences
    of such. ED3
     
  20. Edward Dike

    Edward Dike Guest

    Rich Clark <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    |
    | "Edward Dike, III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    | news:[email protected]...
    |
    | > To me, the distant horn tap from the approaching motorist is a welcome sound, which I will
    | > typically acknowledge with a friendly wave. Almost instantly, many things are communicated:
    | > There is a car/truck approaching( at a distance I can somewhat judge)
    |
    | Or not. The horn can mean anything. It usually means "fuck you" around
    here.
    | Besides, it's not the driver's responsibility to make his presense know to vehicles in front of
    | him. It's you responsibility to be aware of the
    traffic
    | around you.
    |
    | > The motorist sees me, and with my acknowledging wave, knows I am aware
    of
    | > their presence.
    | > (S)he has an understanding of safe bicycle/motor vehicle encounters.
    |
    | Clearly not, since honking at cyclists is not usually safe for the
    cyclist.
    |
    | > (S)he is not going to sneak up on me and (undeservedly) lay on the horn,
    | or
    | > intentionally do something to surprise me.
    |
    | You're reading her mind, now?
    |
    | > I find it to be an act of great courtesy on the part of the motorist,
    and
    | > one I extend as a motorist to other cyclists.
    |
    | Please stay the hell away from me when you're driving your car, then.
    | >
    | > Of far greater import than: "...governed by traffic laws.... cyclist
    has
    | > the same rights and responsibilities as any other vehicle.. ...the traffic code." is
    the
    | > desire on my part, as well as most motorists to remain safe, which can
    be
    | > maintained with greater efficacy by simple, common sense, human courtesy beyond the observation
    | > of legal responsibilities which enforce only the lowest common denominator of any behavior.
    |
    | Can I have some of whatever you're smoking, Ed?
    |
    | I don't know where you live. Maybe your approach actually works there. But in the large population
    | centers where most cyclists live and ride a car
    horn
    | is almost never sounded as a "courtesy."
    |
    | RichC
    |

    "..The horn can mean anything. It usually means "fuck you" around here...." Perhaps.... Perhaps your
    locale; perhaps your perceptions, perhaps your riding. My experiences are distinctly different. ED3
     
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