One rule for cyclists and one for pedestrians?

[Tim Cain]

"Edward Dike, III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> John Foltz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> | Rich Clark <[email protected]> wrote in message
> | news:[email protected]...
> | > To me, the distant horn tap from the approaching motorist is a welcome sound, which I will
> | > typically acknowledge with a friendly wave. Almost instantly, many things are communicated:
> | > There is a car/truck approaching (at a distance I can somewhat judge) The motorist sees me,
> | > and with my acknowledging wave, knows I am aware of their presence. (S)he has an
> | > understanding of safe bicycle/motor vehicle encounters. (S)he is not going to sneak up on me
> | > and (undeservedly) lay on the horn, or intentionally do something to surprise me.
> | >
> | >
> | >
> | I've got to disagree here. Your attitude implies a lack of experience in vehicular riding. On
> | the road, the overtaking vehicle is responsible to pass in a safe manner, because the vehicle in
> | front has the right of way. Why would you want to warn a vehicle that you are there, if that
> | vehicle has the right of way?
> |
> | It is the responsibility of the vehicle in front to behave in a predictable manner, usually to
> | maintain constant speed and heading. If a vehicle needs to honk at you prior to passing, it
> | means that a) the driver does not understand his/her responsibilities WRT traffic code, or b)
> | you are not behaving in a predictable manner.
> | --
> |
> | John Foltz --- O _ Baron --- _O _ V-Rex 24/63 --- _\\/\-%)
> | _________(_)`=()___________________(_)= (_)_____
> |
>
> You response indicates you recognize neither the message, nor the messenger, and that you would
> prefer to be surprised by an overtaking vehicle,

You're not going to be surprised by an overtaking vehicle unless you are deaf, in which case the
horn tap is fairly pointless.

>as opposed to learning of its presence several seconds beforehand. My scenario is not one of urban
>rush-hour traffic where the constant presence of motor vehicles is a given, but rather situations
>where motor traffic is somewhat rarer occurrence. To boil it down to a more simple statement, it
>implied the value of courtesy by, and for all parties. I am uncertain what ''vehicular riding'' is,
>so I cannot quantify my experiences of such.

Based on this posting, it shows.

Tim.

> ED3

 

[Rich Clark]

"Edward Dike, III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I am uncertain what ''vehicular riding'' is, so I cannot quantify my experiences of such.

Vehicular cycling is assuming the rights and responsibilities of a vehicle using the road, as is
explicitly required by law almost everywhere.

Far more importantly, vehicular cycling is what makes the cyclist's actions predictable to other
road users, because everyone's following the same rules, and the rules exist primarily to promote
safety by making everyone's actions predictable. Most accidents result from unpredictable behavior
on the part of someone; most of the rest are undoubtedly caused by some form of negligence.

RichC

 

[Peter Cole]

"Edward Dike, III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> You response indicates you recognize neither the message, nor the messenger, and that you would
> prefer to be surprised by an overtaking vehicle, as opposed to learning of its presence several
> seconds beforehand. My scenario is not one of urban rush-hour traffic where the constant presence
> of motor vehicles is a given, but rather situations where motor traffic is somewhat rarer
> occurrence. To boil it down to a more simple statement, it implied the value of courtesy by, and
> for all parties.

I do a fair amount of rural riding, and fortunately nobody (almost) honks when passing. I don't
require such a warning, nor do I appreciate one. Horns should be reserved for situations where a
warning is needed, not for routine passing. Even in very low traffic areas I tend to keep to the
right in a reasonable way out of habit, if I've forgotten to do this, a toot to ask me to move over
isn't a big deal, but if I'm already in the right place and riding predictably, a horn blow is just
an annoying distraction. Apparently convention varies around the world on this, I'm happy that the
accepted custom in the US is to use the horn sparingly.

On bike paths, I found some people got annoyed when I call out, as if I was giving them a command,
or warning of a hazard, so I stopped doing it unless there *is* a hazard (somebody weaving
erratically, etc.). Some people get startled by the mere act of passing, but I think that shouldn't
surprise anyone, and high strung types would likely be just as startled by a call or bell.

 

[Rich Clark]

"Edward Dike, III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> "..The horn can mean anything. It usually means "**** you" around
here...."
> Perhaps.... Perhaps your locale; perhaps your perceptions, perhaps your riding. My experiences are
> distinctly different.

So where are you riding?

RichC

 

[Edward Dike]

Tim Cain <tcain@you_know_what_to_cut_clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
|
| "Edward Dike, III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
| news:[email protected]...
| >
| > John Foltz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
| > | Rich Clark <[email protected]> wrote in message
| > | news:[email protected]...
| > | > To me, the distant horn tap from the approaching motorist is a welcome sound, which I will
| > | > typically acknowledge with a friendly wave. Almost instantly, many things are communicated:
| > | > There is a car/truck approaching (at a distance I can somewhat judge) The motorist sees me,
| > | > and with my acknowledging wave, knows I am aware of their presence. (S)he has an
| > | > understanding of safe bicycle/motor vehicle encounters. (S)he is not going to sneak up on
| > | > me and (undeservedly) lay on the horn, or intentionally do something to surprise me.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > | I've got to disagree here. Your attitude implies a lack of experience in vehicular riding. On
| > | the road, the overtaking vehicle is responsible to pass in a safe manner, because the vehicle
| > | in front has the right of way. Why would you want to warn a vehicle that you are there, if
| > | that vehicle has the right of way?
| > |
| > | It is the responsibility of the vehicle in front to behave in a predictable manner, usually to
| > | maintain constant speed and heading. If a vehicle needs to honk at you prior to passing, it
| > | means that a) the driver does not understand his/her responsibilities WRT traffic code, or b)
| > | you are not behaving in a predictable manner.
| > | --
| > |
| > | John Foltz --- O _ Baron --- _O _ V-Rex 24/63 --- _\\/\-%)
| > | _________(_)`=()___________________(_)= (_)_____
| > |
| >
| > You response indicates you recognize neither the message, nor the messenger, and that you would
| > prefer to be surprised by an overtaking vehicle,
|
| You're not going to be surprised by an overtaking vehicle unless you are deaf, in which case the
| horn tap is fairly pointless.
|
|
| >as opposed to learning of its presence several seconds beforehand. My scenario is not one of
| >urban rush-hour traffic where the constant presence of motor vehicles is a given, but rather
| >situations where
motor
| > traffic is somewhat rarer occurrence. To boil it down to a more simple statement, it implied the
| > value of courtesy by, and for all parties. I am uncertain what ''vehicular riding'' is, so I
| > cannot quantify my experiences of such.
|
| Based on this posting, it shows.
|
| Tim.
|
|
Please enlighten me by pointing out the term''vehicular riding'' in common usage. Helmet straps, at
speed, or in various crosswinds create a far louder local environment than the wheels of
approaching vehicles.

ED3

 

[Edward Dike]

Benjamin Lewis <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
| On Fri, 29 Nov 2002, Edward Dike, III wrote:
|
| > You response indicates you recognize neither the message, nor the messenger, and that you would
| > prefer to be surprised by an overtaking vehicle, as opposed to learning of its presence several
| > seconds beforehand.
|
| Why does it matter as long as you're passed safely with sufficient room? In any case, a honk from
| behind you is much more surprising and alarming than being passed.
|
| > My scenario is not one of urban rush-hour traffic where the constant presence of motor vehicles
| > is a given, but rather situations where motor traffic is somewhat rarer occurrence.
|
| In which case you can almost invariably hear the approaching vehicle anyway.
|
| > To boil it down to a more simple statement, it implied the value of courtesy by, and for all
| > parties.
|
| It is not "courtesy", it is improper use of a horn.

|
"...In any case, a honk from behind you is much more surprising and alarming than being passed..."

I wrote: "....the distant horn tap from the approaching motorist ....".

a 1/2 second tap of the horn, 1/4 mile behind, is not a traumatic experience. Helmet strap noise is
frequently louder to the ear than the wheels of an approaching vehicle. Making an unobvious presence
known is not improper use of the horn, it is safe vehicle operation.

 

[Edward Dike]

Rich Clark <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
|
| "Edward Dike, III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
| news:[email protected]...
|
| > I am uncertain what ''vehicular riding'' is, so I cannot quantify my experiences of such.
|
| Vehicular cycling is assuming the rights and responsibilities of a vehicle using the road, as is
| explicitly required by law almost everywhere.
|
| Far more importantly, vehicular cycling is what makes the cyclist's
actions
| predictable to other road users, because everyone's following the same rules, and the rules exist
| primarily to promote safety by making
everyone's
| actions predictable. Most accidents result from unpredictable behavior on the part of someone;
| most of the rest are undoubtedly caused by some form
of
| negligence.
|
| RichC
|
Thank you, I recognize, and agree with your definition of vehicular cycling, as it is a somewhat
self-describing term, and fully concur with the principal. But the term used was ''vehicular
riding'' . My first suspicion was being a passenger in a car. Cycling, is a term like driving,
sailing, and piloting which refer to a distinctly different level of participation in the operation
of the respective vehicle than might the term 'riding'. ED3

 

[Eric S. Sande]

>...if I'm already in the right place and riding predictably, a horn blow is just an annoying
>distraction.

Learn to ignore them, in that case. They are all ready blowing at each other, mostly with their
windows rolled up. I wonder if they know or care how loud a car horn can be next to or behind a
bicycle rider, I all ready know they are there, I'm not deaf or blind.

As far as I'm concerned they can all go straight to Hell.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________

 

[Baka Dasai]

On Fri, 29 Nov 2002 18:32:05 -0000, Tim Cain said (and I quote):
> You're not going to be surprised by an overtaking vehicle unless you are deaf, in which case the
> horn tap is fairly pointless.

My regular commute to work is mostly along a very narrow road that runs alongside a shinkansen
(bullet train) track. The road is so narrow that cars cannot usually pass each other, and a car
overtaking a bicycle requires extreme care.

When a shinkansen is going past it is impossible to hear any cars approaching, and I had a couple
of nasty surprises when cars roared past me without me realising until they were a few centimetres
next to me.

My strategy to prevent this is to ride in the centre of the road, making it impossible for cars to
pass. That way I can be sure that nobody will try and sneak past me. The drivers now have to beep
their horn, which I can hear over the shinkansen. I then move to the side of the road, they
overtake, and it all works smoothly.
--
Baka Dasai Hi, I love Satan and I'll be doing your makeup.

 

[Rich Clark]

"Edward Dike, III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I wrote: "....the distant horn tap from the approaching motorist ....".
>
> a 1/2 second tap of the horn, 1/4 mile behind, is not a traumatic experience.

> Helmet strap noise is frequently louder to the ear than the wheels of an approaching vehicle.

It's your responsibility to make sure you can hear and/or see behind you. It's not up to drivers
to alert vehicles in front of them as to their presence. It's your responsibility to know
they're there.

> Making an unobvious presence known is not improper use of the horn, it is safe vehicle operation.

In the real world where most of us live, the conditions you describe rarely if ever exist. A lonely,
quiet road where the only traffic is you and the overtaking vehicle? I doubt if even 1% of my
lifetime miles were under such conditions.

RichC

 

[Tim Cain]

"Edward Dike, III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
>
[snip loads]
>
> | > You response indicates you recognize neither the message, nor the messenger, and that you
> | > would prefer to be surprised by an overtaking vehicle,
> |
> | You're not going to be surprised by an overtaking vehicle unless you are deaf, in which case the
> | horn tap is fairly pointless.
> |
> |
> | >as opposed to learning of its presence several seconds beforehand. My scenario is not one of
> | >urban rush-hour traffic where the constant presence of motor vehicles is a given, but rather
> | >situations where
> motor
> | > traffic is somewhat rarer occurrence. To boil it down to a more simple statement, it implied
> | > the value of courtesy by, and for all parties. I am uncertain what ''vehicular riding'' is, so
> | > I cannot quantify my experiences of such.
> |
> | Based on this posting, it shows.
> |
> | Tim.
> |
> |
> Please enlighten me by pointing out the term''vehicular riding'' in common usage.

For "Vehicular Riding", read "Vehicular Cycling", and a Google search will furnish far more info
than you or I need in a lifetime.

It boils down to controlling your bike as a vehicle rather than a toy, accepting the
responsibilities this entails, and expecting the privileges this brings.

> Helmet straps, at speed, or in various crosswinds create a far louder
local
> environment than the wheels of approaching vehicles.

I wouldn't know anything about helmet strap induced noise ;-)

Ed,

Apologies for coming on a bit strong. I've just had a rather shocking and expensive cycling
experience which has left me damaged, and broke over Christmas.

I shouldn't have taken it out on you

FWIW, I wasn't riding in vehicular fashion at the time...

Tim.

>
> ED3

 

[Dennis P. Harri]

On 30 Nov 2002 01:02:53 GMT in rec.bicycles.misc, Baka Dasai <[email protected]> wrote:

> My regular commute to work is mostly along a very narrow road that runs alongside a shinkansen
> (bullet train) track. The road is so narrow that cars cannot usually pass each other, and a car
> overtaking a bicycle requires extreme care.
>
> When a shinkansen is going past it is impossible to hear any cars approaching, and I had a couple
> of nasty surprises when cars roared past me without me realising until they were a few centimetres
> next to me.
>
you need a rear view mirror! you won't be surprised if you have a helmet or glasses-mounted mirror.

and no, cars should NOT honk to "warn" cyclists --- it's rude, and most of the times it startles
them and can actually CAUSE accidents.

 

[Edward Dike]

Tim Cain <tcain@you_know_what_to_cut_clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
|
| "Edward Dike, III" <[email protected]> wrote in message
| news[email protected]...
| >
| [snip loads]
| >
| > | > You response indicates you recognize neither the message, nor the messenger, and that you
| > | > would prefer to be surprised by an
overtaking
| > | > vehicle,
| > |
| > | You're not going to be surprised by an overtaking vehicle unless you are deaf, in which case
| > | the horn tap is fairly pointless.
| > |
| > |
| > | > as opposed to learning of its presence several seconds beforehand.
| > | > My scenario is not one of urban rush-hour traffic where the
constant
| > | > presence of motor vehicles is a given, but rather situations where
| > motor
| > | > traffic is somewhat rarer occurrence. To boil it down to a more simple statement, it implied
| > | > the value of courtesy by, and for all parties. I am uncertain what ''vehicular riding'' is,
| > | > so I cannot quantify my experiences of such.
| > |
| > | Based on this posting, it shows.
| > |
| > | Tim.
| > |
| > |
| > Please enlighten me by pointing out the term''vehicular riding'' in
common
| > usage.
|
| For "Vehicular Riding", read "Vehicular Cycling", and a Google search will furnish far more info
| than you or I need in a lifetime.
|
| It boils down to controlling your bike as a vehicle rather than a toy, accepting the
| responsibilities this entails, and expecting the privileges this brings.
|
| > Helmet straps, at speed, or in various crosswinds create a far louder
| local
| > environment than the wheels of approaching vehicles.
|
| I wouldn't know anything about helmet strap induced noise ;-)
|
|
| Ed,
|
| Apologies for coming on a bit strong. I've just had a rather shocking and expensive cycling
| experience which has left me damaged, and broke over Christmas.
|
| I shouldn't have taken it out on you
|
| FWIW, I wasn't riding in vehicular fashion at the time...
|
| Tim.
|
| >
| > ED3
| >
| >
Tim, I was left clueless by the term.'Riding', in most contexts that immediately occur to me, is a
passive term, as oppossed to driving, etc. If all cyclists( and motorists) would subscibe to, and
practice the concept of Vehicular Riding", or "Vehicular Cycling", or any other term that
represented responsible behavior while underway, the entire road using population would be safer and
better served. As this thread progressed, It became apparent the behavior in rural/ crosscountry
situations, as I was describing, were misinterprted to be applied to more conjested environs.
Belligerent horn honking in traffic is close to obsenity, in my opinion. Regards, ED3( who didn't
start no helmet thread)

 

[Guy Chapman]

On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 02:24:09 -0900, [email protected] (Dennis P. Harris) wrote:

>no, cars should NOT honk to "warn" cyclists --- it's rude, and most of the times it startles them
>and can actually CAUSE accidents.

I have known situations where a group ride was trundling along, a car came up behind and nobody
noticed. A gentle toot draws attention to the car's presence and, provided the driver does not then
do the typical cager thing and attempt to squeeze past anyway, the club usually makes an effort to
allow passing as soon as the road is wide enough.

Normally, though, the use of the horn is entirely for the driver's own benefit: "how dare you
prevent me from exceeding the speed limit" is the message in most cases.

Guy
===
Now available in both wedgie and bent flavours!

** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting) Above email is a spam-sink. Remove maker of Spam from
[email protected] to reply by mail

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>, Guy Chapman
<[email protected]> writes:

> I've heard this comment before, but I really don't recognise this effect.

I sure did, after getting my long hair cut down to a nice, trim college-cut. Lately I seem to have
gotten used to the wind noise, but for awhile the effect was very noticable; it was like being in
the midst of my own, private little gale everywhere I went. At least I don't get my hair tangled in
the straps anymore. I don't know how the guys with beards can put up with it.

Even with the hair, I could still readily discern the rumble of all-season tires coming up
behind me.

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD

remove NO_SPAM. from address to reply

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>, "Prof. Wilhelm von de Leihavon"
<[email protected]> writes:
>
> I don't have a problem with and I do appreciate it when a driven gives several light beeps to let
> me know that they are about to pass.

In this city, it's just more background noise, lost amidst a cacaphony of car alarms, loud
motorcycle pipes, and bouncy dump trucks that sound like train wrecks whenever they hit rough
pavement. Drivers here will toot at the drop of a hat -- to tell their girlfriends to hurry up out
of the house and into the car; to vent their rage; to say "hi" when passing friends on the street;
to just frob the horn button. There was a time when /nobody/ here would sound their horn except in
the case of the most dire emergency or wedding procession. Then, a bunch of Type A's who think
Vancouver is too laid-back came here from Toronto. Car horns no longer have meaning here.

On twisty-turny rural roads, I think it's okay for drivers to give a couple of toots just before
entering a blind curve. I apply the same idea with my bell, on some local park trails that allow
bikes -- especially where there's an adjacent playground.

> I just don't like it when someone lays on the horn to show their anger for my taking up their
> space on the road.

That's one of the reasons I got the rubber-bulb bugle horn for my bike. I can honk back.

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD

remove NO_SPAM. from address to reply

 

[Tomp]

J Asking wrote:

> If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
> footpath,

Yes. But, a bell on a road bike looks dorky; so I whistle, in a soft friendly manner. The
whistle works well with dogs too.

> then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?

Personally I don't mind as long as it's a friendly toot.

--

Tp

-------- __o ----- -\<. ------ __o --- ( ) / ( ) ---- -\<. ----------------- ( ) / ( )
---------------------------------------------
Remember: "no law suit, ever fixed a moron."

 

[Prof. Wilhelm V]

"Tom Keats" <tkeats@NO_SPAM.vcn.bc.ca> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <f3d15258.02112900[email protected]>, [email protected] (J
> Asking) writes:
> > If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
> > footpath, then is it OK for car drivers to honk their horns as they approach cyclists?
>
> No. But it's okay for car drivers to ring their bells as they approach cyclists.

I don't have a problem with and I do appreciate it when a driven gives several light beeps to let me
know that they are about to pass.

I just don't like it when someone lays on the horn to show their anger for my taking up their space
on the road.

Prof

>
> cheers, Tom
>
> --
> -- Powered by FreeBSD
>
> remove NO_SPAM. from address to reply

 

[Barry Gaudet]

TomP <[email protected]> wrote:

: J Asking wrote:

:> If it's OK for cyclists to ring bell on their bicycle as they approach innocent walkers on the
:> footpath,

: Yes. But, a bell on a road bike looks dorky; so I whistle, in a soft friendly manner. The
: whistle works well with dogs too.

I have a bell now but before I had it I'd shift gears a few times; down a couple, up a couple, it
usually worked.

--
'People think I'm insane because I am frowning all the time All day long I think of things
but nothing seems to satisfy' 'Make a joke and I will sigh And you will laugh and I will
cry' -Black Sabbath

 

[Zippy The Pinhe]

"TomP" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> Yes. But, a bell on a road bike looks dorky; so I whistle, in a soft friendly manner. The
> whistle works well with dogs too.

I can't whistle. I've found a really raucous fart to be equally effective as the dorky bell.