Online Power Verification

[ric_stern/RST]

Yep. I've had the physical differences figured out for at least a couple of years now. As to the behavioral differences, I've given up trying to figure it out.

a couple of years... it must be more than that!

 

[RapDaddyo]

a couple of years... it must be more than that!

Well, let's see now. I guess since my first of five children was born in 1976 maybe it's been more than a couple. Maybe it's because I still find the discovery of the differences so interesting that it just seems like it's only been a couple of years.

 

[Doctor Morbius]

We have queens in the States too. It's just that they have chrome mustache combs and buttless chaps!

 

[frenchyge]

...I can maintain about 250W - 260W for 20min. I weigh 80kG. According to a table I saw somewhere here (can't find the thread now, but its similar to this one
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com...rprofile_v3.gif,
but with Racing categories on the left hand side), that should put me near the upper end of Cat 5 riders and lower end of Cat 4. Well last weekend I rode a Cat 5 race - ugly! I was at the end of that group all right, but it wasn't the upper end I'm sad to say. So. . . either 1.) Really fast Cat 5 group, 2.) Power/kg table no good, 3.) Nothing more than a bit of an off day for Mr. J (Hey, could be!), or 4.) Kreuzotter calculator no good.

I've been lurking on your other thread about your racing experience, but I thought I'd make a quick comment here. I was reading an article either by Carmichael or quoting him where he says that the highest power that he sees generated in races is typically associated with the "winning move" and that power generated by both the breakaway and chasing groups typically drop back down after this selection move is made. That said, one's race success can depend pretty heavily on how much power they can put into *that specific moment* and whether they make the selection or not. Now, there may be a longer buildup to the 'move' so 20 minute power is still pretty important, but where your 20-minute power stands in relation to other Cat 4/5's may not be the primary indicator of race success at those levels.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Dr. M, I've had a chance to plug some numbers from a recent climb into both the kreuzotter and AC calculators and I found the AC calculator to be more accurate by ~33w. Specifically, this was a 5% avg. grade 3.3 mile climb in which I averaged a little more than 13mph. The AC calculator comes up w/ 307w and the kreuzotter calculator comes up w/ 340w. Now, as much as I wish I made that climb at 340w, I'm sure I did it a lot closer to 307w. My PM shows average power of 303w and NP of 306w. So, I'm not so sure about the kreuzotter formulae.

 

[stormer94]

that should put me near the upper end of Cat 5 riders and lower end of Cat 4. Well last weekend I rode a Cat 5 race - ugly! I was at the end of that group all right, but it wasn't the upper end I'm sad to say. So. . . either 1.) Really fast Cat 5 group, 2.) Power/kg table no good, 3.) Nothing more than a bit of an off day for Mr. J (Hey, could be!), or 4.) Kreuzotter calculator no good.

You and I are in a very similar boat. Here are my thoughts.. I "THINK" (and will be corrected if I'm wrong) that there is some kind of race number you do in 5, and then you are a 4, kind of thing and that is relative to the sanctioning body.

The other thing is likely this. None of us is making any living cycling, we are just pluggers. We all show up and race cat 5 because we have no experience, and it's likely there are some guys that "REALLY" shouldn't be in it. BUT, they don't race much either.

Our state TT championships was this weekend. I took 8th in cat 5... had I raced in cat 4, I'd have finished 3rd in cat 4. I'd have been on the podium in a higher class!!
But I've only done one (1) categorized, sanctioning body race.

I just kind of look at it like this. I'm really just racing myself, doesn't matter the category. But I know EXACTLY what you are saying, no doubt.

 

[frenchyge]

Our state TT championships was this weekend. I took 8th in cat 5... had I raced in cat 4, I'd have finished 3rd in cat 4. I'd have been on the podium in a higher class!!
But I've only done one (1) categorized, sanctioning body race.

By USCF rules, all beginners are Cat 5 until they've participated in 10 *mass start* races (ie, road race or criterium races). The reason the Cat 5 is probably faster in your TT is because all the people who specialize in TTs or are primarily triathletes will be Cat 5s. The Cat 4s are people who've done more group racing, and they're less likely to be as strong in the TT as the specialists who come out of the woodwork for the big TT races.

 

[stormer94]

By USCF rules, all beginners are Cat 5 until they've participated in 10 *mass start* races (ie, road race or criterium races). The reason the Cat 5 is probably faster in your TT is because all the people who specialize in TTs or are primarily triathletes will be Cat 5s. The Cat 4s are people who've done more group racing, and they're less likely to be as strong in the TT as the specialists who come out of the woodwork for the big TT races.

HOLY ****!!! I was right.

 

[frenchyge]

HOLY ****!!! I was right.

Cat 4 should probably not be thought of as a *faster* category, but rather a more experienced one. The faster 4's will move up to Cat 3 over time, while those that remain 4's either don't race very many races each year or aren't usually in a position to contend the win. Here are the Cat rules:

USCF Road Upgrades

Guidelines and Notes by Category:
5-4: Experience in 10 mass start races that meet the criteria in the table below (qualifying races).
4-3: 20 points in any 12-month period; or experience in 25 qualifying races with a minimum of 10 top ten finishes. 30 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade
3 - 2: 25 points in any 12-month period
60 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade
2 - 1: 30 points in any 12-month period
60 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade

http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=580

 

[stormer94]

Cat 4 should probably not be thought of as a *faster* category, but rather a more experienced one. The faster 4's will move up to Cat 3 over time, while those that remain 4's either don't race very many races each year or aren't usually in a position to contend the win. Here are the Cat rules:

USCF Road Upgrades

Guidelines and Notes by Category:
5-4: Experience in 10 mass start races that meet the criteria in the table below (qualifying races).
4-3: 20 points in any 12-month period; or experience in 25 qualifying races with a minimum of 10 top ten finishes. 30 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade
3 - 2: 25 points in any 12-month period
60 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade
2 - 1: 30 points in any 12-month period
60 points in 12 months is an automatic upgrade

http://www.usacycling.org/news/user/story.php?id=580

Appreciate the info.

 

[whoawhoa]

I use the kreuzotter calculator, too. I like it because it's really easy. Like you Dr. M, I have no way to know whether it is accurate or not. I can point to one disconnect, though, but not necessarily with the calculator. Based on the calculator and my riding, I can maintain about 250W - 260W for 20min. I weigh 80kG. According to a table I saw somewhere here (can't find the thread now, but its similar to this one
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com...rprofile_v3.gif,
but with Racing categories on the left hand side), that should put me near the upper end of Cat 5 riders and lower end of Cat 4. Well last weekend I rode a Cat 5 race - ugly! I was at the end of that group all right, but it wasn't the upper end I'm sad to say. So. . . either 1.) Really fast Cat 5 group, 2.) Power/kg table no good, 3.) Nothing more than a bit of an off day for Mr. J (Hey, could be!), or 4.) Kreuzotter calculator no good.

I will say this, the calculator has yielded fairly consistent power numbers over a fairly wide range of conditions for a given range of percieved effort and HR data. I feel like it's pretty good.

J

Have you checked your power on the chart at the other points? As frenchgye said, 20mp may not be why you were dropped. My 20mp is about 5 w/kg using ac or the kreuzotter calculator. If I remember the chart right, that would put me as a cat 2, and I couldn't hang in any cat 2 race except for maybe a hill climb. (I weigh 60kg, which skews the numbers a bit)

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Have you checked your power on the chart at the other points? As frenchgye said, 20mp may not be why you were dropped. My 20mp is about 5 w/kg using ac or the kreuzotter calculator. If I remember the chart right, that would put me as a cat 2, and I couldn't hang in any cat 2 race except for maybe a hill climb. (I weigh 60kg, which skews the numbers a bit)

My guess is you're overestimating your power with those calculators -- i generate approximately the same power (~ 300 W) and can ride 1st cat races, yet my mass is ~ 69 kg.

ric

 

[jjjtttggg]

Have you checked your power on the chart at the other points? As frenchgye said, 20mp may not be why you were dropped. My 20mp is about 5 w/kg using ac or the kreuzotter calculator. If I remember the chart right, that would put me as a cat 2, and I couldn't hang in any cat 2 race except for maybe a hill climb. (I weigh 60kg, which skews the numbers a bit)

No, I haven't really looked at the 1 min or 5 min columns, because I don't really have any data points that represent "all out" efforts for those short durations. Maybe I should do a test.

 

[jjjtttggg]

I've been lurking on your other thread about your racing experience, but I thought I'd make a quick comment here. I was reading an article either by Carmichael or quoting him where he says that the highest power that he sees generated in races is typically associated with the "winning move" and that power generated by both the breakaway and chasing groups typically drop back down after this selection move is made. That said, one's race success can depend pretty heavily on how much power they can put into *that specific moment* and whether they make the selection or not. Now, there may be a longer buildup to the 'move' so 20 minute power is still pretty important, but where your 20-minute power stands in relation to other Cat 4/5's may not be the primary indicator of race success at those levels.

Great point. Thanks. I think, despite the likelihood that it'll take time to get better, that I need to keep racing. There's an awful lot to it, it seems. It is interesting to think that perhaps once up and over that first time that those guys might have settled into a pace that I could have kept with had I been able to stay with them for another 10 minutes or so to get through that first climb first climb. I really hadn't thought about that before.

Thanks again,
J

 

[frenchyge]

No, I haven't really looked at the 1 min or 5 min columns, because I don't really have any data points that represent "all out" efforts for those short durations. Maybe I should do a test.

My impression is that 20-minute power is like the 'minimum height requirement' to enter the race, but your sustainable power over 3-5 minute interval sets (with short recoveries in between) is a better indicator if you really want to compete. The caveat to this is that 20-min power is a good indicator of how easily you can recover, but you really need to train those higher zones if you want to be a successful racer at the lower levels where packs and sprints are the norm.

 

[frenchyge]

Great point. Thanks. I think, despite the likelihood that it'll take time to get better, that I need to keep racing. There's an awful lot to it, it seems. It is interesting to think that perhaps once up and over that first time that those guys might have settled into a pace that I could have kept with had I been able to stay with them for another 10 minutes or so to get through that first climb first climb. I really hadn't thought about that before.

Definitely keep at it. Think about the TdF stages, once the break is established and settles into a reasonably small size, there's typically a lot of cooperation between the riders until close to the end of the race.

 

[jjjtttggg]

You and I are in a very similar boat. Here are my thoughts.. I "THINK" (and will be corrected if I'm wrong) that there is some kind of race number you do in 5, and then you are a 4, kind of thing and that is relative to the sanctioning body.

The other thing is likely this. None of us is making any living cycling, we are just pluggers. We all show up and race cat 5 because we have no experience, and it's likely there are some guys that "REALLY" shouldn't be in it. BUT, they don't race much either.

Our state TT championships was this weekend. I took 8th in cat 5... had I raced in cat 4, I'd have finished 3rd in cat 4. I'd have been on the podium in a higher class!!
But I've only done one (1) categorized, sanctioning body race.

I just kind of look at it like this. I'm really just racing myself, doesn't matter the category. But I know EXACTLY what you are saying, no doubt.

Now that would be disappointing, taking a lower spot than you would have in a higher class. Frenchy's explanation makes sense, but boy it must be bummer. Like you say, though, you know what you did, so Congrats!

Like I've said a couple of times here or in the other thread, I just want to improve enough to ride with the group beyond the first 15-20 minutes of a race. I train solo, so I get plenty of time riding through the countryside on the same roads we race on (at least as much time as my lifestyle allows). I suppose when I get good enough to stay with the pack I'll start thinking about contending, but first things first - I just want to stop getting dropped!!

I will get there. The advice on this forum is great, and my training has been getting better this season as a result. All my training loop times are slowly but surely dropping, so I know I'm getting better. I just have to keep at it.

Regards,
J

 

[RapDaddyo]

My impression is that 20-minute power is like the 'minimum height requirement' to enter the race, but your sustainable power over 3-5 minute interval sets (with short recoveries in between) is a better indicator if you really want to compete. The caveat to this is that 20-min power is a good indicator of how easily you can recover, but you really need to train those higher zones if you want to be a successful racer at the lower levels where packs and sprints are the norm.

I agree with this, and not only for the physiological adaptations. It's also important psychologically to know that you can go for 3 - 5 minutes at the higher intensity when that moment arises in the race. I think I can go harder and overcome what my mind is trying to tell me (i.e., "Stop") if I have survived a similar intensity for a similar duration on repeated training rides. If I basically know I can do it, I just tell my mind to "Quit *****ing!"

 

[RapDaddyo]

Think about the TdF stages, once the break is established and settles into a reasonably small size, there's typically a lot of cooperation between the riders until close to the end of the race.

Only if those wheel-sucking sprinters have been left in the dust like garbage trucks!

 

[frenchyge]

Like I've said a couple of times here or in the other thread, I just want to improve enough to ride with the group beyond the first 15-20 minutes of a race. I train solo, so I get plenty of time riding through the countryside on the same roads we race on (at least as much time as my lifestyle allows). I suppose when I get good enough to stay with the pack I'll start thinking about contending, but first things first - I just want to stop getting dropped!!

That needs to change if at all possible. Find a fast group and get into some of their rides for your high-intensity workouts. You need to get accustomed to that group dynamic -- where you don't always get to rest when you want to -- to learn to grit your teeth and hold the wheel for just a minute longer to ensure you make the selection. It's very difficult to push yourself to the degree of pain necessary when you ride solo. Solo rides are great for longer endurance and recovery rides.