Only 40 years of gas left!

[Thaibiker]

key phrase was "first exposed"

Not to delve too deeply into history, but I reckon that the FIRST modern conflict over energy resources was the Franco-Prussian War. You and your history teachers may disagree.

And, at least one "historian" has noted that the reason that the Japanese invaded Pearl Harbor was because the United States was being intentionally provocative (no doubt, because FDR wanted IN on the action) by blockading the straits in-and-around Indonesia ... a source of oil for the Empire of Japan.

That's not to say that the Japanese were right to respond as they did; and, it hardly excuses the Japanese invasion of Manchuria ...

But, the so-called oil crisis (and, coal, before it as the energy source) has been with us for decades longer than you have supposed ... only the masks which the players wear change with the changing scripts ... and, the conflicts are dances where the soldiers are treated as cannon fodder ... and, we are no less the pawns for enabling the transfer of wealth to the elite -- Repblican, Democrat (Al Gore's family was, and may still be, significant shareholders in Occidental Petroleum ... primarily Libyan oil ... Hmmm, the Gores weren't just tabacky farmers), Tory, Conservative, whatever ...

 

[Thaibiker]

People have to be motivated. Cheap gasoline was no motivator. Now, at $3 a gallon, the will is there, but alas, there is no leadership.

Read Jared Diamond's "Collapse"

Yeah, it's all those evil republicans' fault. I note you chose to leave out filthy clinton who likewise did nothing or even made things worse.

Personally speaking, I think we're headed to hell in a handbasket for a variety of reasons, but the oil business is by far the most sure. I laugh at the fools who say that they'll get along w/o cars because they live close to their work. Fine, so you'll die of starvation if the riots don't get you.

If you are very young, ask a 40+ year old about the fuss in the late 70's when the oil was slightly interrputed for passenger cars only. That's a holiday compared to what we'll face with a REAL interruption. What we're facing is a mass extinction of all humans within the lifetime of many today.

 

[Treky]

Rising prices do not have a significant impact on supply and demand in the long run.

Dream on. Next you are going to re-write all of the supply-demand ecnomics. Rising prices will mean industrries and ordinary folks alike will seek more energy efficient means.

Supply and demand, BTW, as described by theorists is NOT a true factor in the current pricing of crude oil on the world markets; but, rather mostly a result of speculators.

Right, of course they are making money out of it. Should we ban people making money out of all the commodities and other merchandize?

I believe the current CASH price for Sour/Heavy Crude is in the low-to-mid-$40 range ... Sweet Crude is cheaper to refine, and so there is about a $2-to-$3 premium ...

It does not matter what you believe, in a free martket, supply and demand decides the price.

Twenty years ago, it was observed that the break-even price for refining the tar sands was about $18US. Again, allowing for inflation (which is solely manufactured by Dollar devaluation by the Federal Reserve AND NOT supply & demand driven market forces), that would put the cost of tar sand derived oil (aka "synthetic oil" ... yes, that Mobil ONE probably isn't any better, but they have good marketers) would be in the low-to-mid-$40 range.

Prices manipulated? Say it isn't so!

The crude oil is traded in a free market. If the refineries could buy it cheaper they would.

Peak Oil IS a myth ...

I guess the fact that China's oil consumption will surpass that ot US is also a myth. How about India is fast catching up with China in oil consumption. That is a myth too, is it?

Global Warming may be occurring, but it is not man made and is barely exacerbated, if at all, by Man -- that is the INCONVENIENT TRUTH.

Well I am not so sure the man does not have such a big role in global warming. So I'd like to buy an insurance policy and stop polluting so much, just in case we are causing it so much damage.

How do those who run around espousing Global Warming explain the fact that about 1000 years ago the Vikings had thriving & self-sustaining settlements in regions outside of Europe that are now inhospitable? That, in England, they were growing grapes which were not suited to the English climate of a decade ago ...

The earth goes through cycles. The scientists explain the difference. Perhaps you can read more into it instead of saying it aint happening and shut it out.

Global Warming is cyclical ... it has been alternating with glaciation for at least 100,000 years ...

Not like the one we are experiencing. We are putting millions of tons of pollution into the atmosphere, which would not have been the case if people did not use so much fossil fuels.

While most Environmentalists may be well-intentioned, they are uninformed ...

Right, I am sure they would love to be informed by you. Why don't you contact them and explain how wrong they are. You are not convincing me by saying any of this and I am not a scientist nor am I an environmentalists. I just want an insurance policy against the global warming, in case the man is cauisng a huge upset in the ecological system (I am pretty darn sure we are).

And, the objective of SOME Environmentalist (e.g., those who are promoting AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH) is little different from the objective of SOME so-called Christian Fundamentalists -- control. Control of the congregation -- control of you & me -- because THEY either think that they no better OR they like the notion of control for control's sake.

I have not seen the movie by Gore. But you cannot believe they are doing to so they can control you. That is not going to work. They must know that trying to control people like that is a waste of time. And I am sure they have heard communism in USSR has failed and China has opened its doors to capitalism.

The so-called demand from China & India doesn't warrant the price differential from the past.

I am beginning to think I am wasting my time writing this reply. Clearly you know all the secret answers nobody else does.

The Chinese and/or East Indians will undoubtedly be using on-demand hydrogen fueld cars before the United States & Europe adopt them.

If that is the case I wonder who will supply the technology for it?

If anyone needs thoughts to cogitate on, then consider the high likelihood that gasoline prices in the United States will probably be BELOW $2.00 before the November elections ... one way or another ... by hook or by (the) crook(s)! Maybe $2.00 gasoline by November won't occur, but if it does ...

The oil companies make their money from crude oil, not from retail or from refining oil. So how will this happen since by your admission the oil companies and speculatiors are inflating the crude prices.

I hope the gas prices in the US reach $15 per/gallon before it settles to $8-$10, something like most people in the world pay for it. There is no better motivation than the kind that hits people's pockets and companies bottom line. Already there are many companies building more efficient home appliences, heating/cooling and other industrial machines, including jmuch more efficient jet engines, cars and SUVs. We need to keep doing this, and only way this will continue is if the gas prices in US are more inline with gas prices in Europe.

 

[Treky]

We are putting millions of tons of pollution into the atmosphere, which would not have been the case if people did not use so much fossil fuels.

Correction, billions of tons, not millions (4 billion tons of CO2 by USA alone every year).

 

[alfeng]

Right, I am sure they would love to be informed by you. Why don't you contact them and explain how wrong they are. You are not convincing me by saying any of this and I am not a scientist nor am I an environmentalists. I just want an insurance policy against the global warming, in case the man is cauisng a huge upset in the ecological system (I am pretty darn sure we are).

WOW! Your attempt at a reply is why it is pointless to try to educate the uneducable ... if you aren't bright enough to fathom THAT statement, Treky, I'm talking about you and your ilk.

In tandem with understanding that Global Warming IS cyclical, it should be pointed out that NASA (believe them or not) has noted that other celestial bodies WITHIN OUR SOLAR SYSTEM are experiencing concurrent "warming" ... or, are you going to say that the moons of Jupiter are being influenced by the CO2 levels on Earth?

If the Environmentalists could get their head out of the oven-of-despair for a couple of minutes, they would acknowledge that the reason the North Pole's ice sheet is melting is because of sub-sea volcanic activity.

Similarly, the Yellowstone Caldera is swelling ...

And, undoubedtly, the glaciers in Glacier National Park are melting for the same reason.

YES, can you fathom that? The core of the earth is warming due to increased observed SOLAR activity ...

Unbelievably, Environmentalist and their useful-idiot minions are so vain as to think that Man can have a significant impact on what happens on Earth ...

Don't worry about Global Warming ... the next significant volcanic eruption will give you something new to lament -- oh, I guess I should explain THAT to you ... the climate will cool by a degree-or-two ...

And then, you can lament that we are probably less than 700 years away from the next major glaciation!

 

[Treky]

WOW! Your attempt at a reply is why it is pointless to try to educate the uneducable ... if you aren't bright enough to fathom THAT statement, Treky, I'm talking about you and your ilk.

My attempt at a reply? Which part? So you wrote it all off? My ilk? Nice answer.

In tandem with understanding that Global Warming IS cyclical, it should be pointed out that NASA (believe them or not) has noted that other celestial bodies WITHIN OUR SOLAR SYSTEM are experiencing concurrent "warming" ... or, are you going to say that the moons of Jupiter are being influenced by the CO2 levels on Earth?

Scintists have said all along the earth goes through different cycles. And even a magnetic field revarsal cycle. But that they also say these do not explain the sharp rise in temperatures and changes in climate. I guess you choose to ignore this part. Earth goes through it cycles, but the inroduction of polluting elements and heat by burning billions of gallons of oil and natural gas was not in the equation until the industrial revolution came along.

If the Environmentalists could get their head out of the oven-of-despair for a couple of minutes, they would acknowledge that the reason the North Pole's ice sheet is melting is because of sub-sea volcanic activity.

Right, so billions of tons of pollution we are sending into the atmosphere is having 0 affect? We can put it down to volcanic activity, nothing we can do about it right?

YES, can you fathom that? The core of the earth is warming due to increased observed SOLAR activity ...

No, I guess I cannot fanthom that. Solar activity is causing the earth's to warm up more than the huge amounts of fossile fuels we burn? I cannot do much about the solar activity (and I am not sure how much of an impact it has on global warming), but I can do something to reduce the pollution caused by burning fossil fuels.

Unbelievably, Environmentalist and their useful-idiot minions are so vain as to think that Man can have a significant impact on what happens on Earth ...

Well I was thinking it was the idiots who over estimate the abilities of the human kind and yet under estimate the amunt of damage they can cause. In the ecological system nothing is wated. Everything you introduce into that system has an impact. It is a closed loop. You cannot add billions of tons of an element and expect no change in return. Only an idiot can expect that and guess what, only an idiot can deny the impact humans have already had on earth. We have been here a fraction of a second (comparared to the millions of years the earth has been around) and we have already managed to drive many animals to extinction and destroy whole regions of intricate ecological systems.

Don't worry about Global Warming ... the next significant volcanic eruption will give you something new to lament -- oh, I guess I should explain THAT to you ... the climate will cool by a degree-or-two ...

If we have a significant volcanic eruption such as a caldera, the scientists say that the atmosphere would be filled with so much dust and debris for such a long time the plants would not get enough sun and all the vegatation would die off. May be we will have such an eruption and all this talk about global warming is pointless. But if not and we are good for another 50k years, at this rate I doubt we will last long.

 

[alfeng]

My attempt at a reply? Which part? So you wrote it all off? My ilk? Nice answer.

I have in-laws how are equally uneducable ... they think, for example, that everything that George Bush says is better than Gospel ... they aren't stupid, but they are too lazy to actually do anything but fall in lock-step with a sounds-good-if-you-don't-think-about-it advocacy.

Educate yourself. If you think that the solar effect is limited to the heating of the atmosphere, then you need to:

a) graduate from HS

b) take some science classes before you graduate

If, by chance, you have graduated from HS, then stop demonstrating the critical thinking of a 3rd Grader.

 

[Treky]

I have in-laws how are equally uneducable ... they think, for example, that everything that George Bush says is better than Gospel ... they aren't stupid, but they are too lazy to actually do anything but fall in lock-step with a sounds-good-if-you-don't-think-about it advocacy.

Educate yourself. If you think that the solar effect is limited to the heating of the atmosphere, then you need to:

a) graduate from HS

b) take some science classes before you graduate

If, by chance, you have graduated from HS, then stop demonstrating the critical thinking of a 3rd Grader.

Another great response. You are the one who demonstrated an inability to analyze the facts in front of you. My thinkings are in line with 1000s of scientists, Phd. grads etc. and millions of not so educated folks with good common sense.

PS: you may also want to quit comparing everybody who disagrees with you on this to your in-laws. I am not judging them for what they think or do, but believing everything the president says is not the same as believing scientific facts.

 

[alfeng]

Another great response. You are the one who demonstrated an inability to analyze the facts in front of you. My thinkings are in line with 1000s of scientists, Phd. grads etc. and millions of not so educated folks with good common sense.

PS: you may also want to quit comparing everybody who disagrees with you on this to your in-laws. I am not judging them for what they think or do, but believing everything the president says is not the same as believing scientific facts.

WOW. You demonstrate ZERO literacy!

The example with my in-laws was to illustrate an analogous group on the other end of the spectrum; but, you would need some critical thinking to comprehend that ...

While a Ph.D. that is not in Geology limits the credibility in the area of standing on EITHER side of the Global Warming issue, there is at least one person with a Ph.D. in Geology that embraces the Creationist's belief that the world is only about 6000 years old ... is HE right because he has his Doctorate in Geology?

THOUSANDS of learned people used to think the World was "Flat" ... did that mean they were right?

I have analyzed ALL the facts ... apparently more than you as I am aware of "facts" beyond the ones which were spoon fed to you by advocates who have an agenda.

BTW. It is estimated that Al Gore has earned approximately $100 Million (yes, ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS -- US DOLLARS) from Apple, et al, as a spokesman for the current Environmentalist movement. Gore says he wants everyone to see his film, but if that were actually true, he would use some of his recent earnings (vs. his Occidental Petroleum money) to simply have a DVD of his film mailed to every household in the country -- many would watch it, some wouldn't.

While there may be altruism in YOUR advocacy, there is NO altruism in Al Gore's advocacy OR that of HIS ilk. THAT is THE "Inconvenient Truth."

 

[Treky]

WOW. You demonstrate ZERO literacy!

The example with my in-laws was to illustrate an analogous group on the other end of the spectrum; but, you would need some critical thinking to comprehend that ...

While a Ph.D. that is not in Geology limits the credibility in the area of standing on EITHER side of the Global Warming issue, there is at least one person with a Ph.D. in Geology that embraces the Creationist's belief that the world is only about 6000 years old ... is HE right because he has his Doctorate in Geology?

THOUSANDS of learned people used to think the World was "Flat" ... did that mean they were right?

I have analyzed ALL the facts ... apparently more than you as I am aware of "facts" beyond the ones which were spoon fed to you by advocates who have an agenda.

BTW. It is estimated that Al Gore has earned approximately $100 Million (yes, ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS -- US DOLLARS) from Apple, et al, as a spokesman for the current Environmentalist movement. Gore says he wants everyone to see his film, but if that were actually true, he would use some of his recent earnings (vs. his Occidental Petroleum money) to simply have a DVD of his film mailed to every household in the country -- many would watch it, some wouldn't.

While there may be altruism in YOUR advocacy, there is NO altruism in Al Gore's advocacy OR that of HIS ilk. THAT is THE "Inconvenient Truth."

You said your in-laws were equally uneducable. If that is not a comparision, I do not know what is. Forgive my ignorance your highness, we are not worthy of your intelligence. I should have read your mind, you really did not mean what you wrote

Very strange. I put you in the same basket as those who claimed world was flat. Those people were so simple minded they could not or did not want to comprehend the earth was round. You are, whilst claiming you have analyzed all the facts, ignore all the facts that dispute your view, just like those who ignored the signs that earth could not be flat.

Why are you talking about Al Gore's movie? You keep bringing it up. I have not seen his movie so I cannot comment on it. If you have a beef with him or his movie you should write to him.

 

[alfeng]

You said your in-laws were equally uneducable. If that is not a comparision, I do not know what is. Forgive my ignorance your highness, we are not worthy of your intelligence. I should have read your mind, you really did not mean what you wrote

Very strange. I put you in the same basket as those who claimed world was flat. Those people were so simple minded they could not or did not want to comprehend the earth was round. You are, whilst claiming you have analyzed all the facts, ignore all the facts that dispute your view, just like those who ignored the signs that earth could not be flat.

Why are you talking about Al Gore's movie? You keep bringing it up. I have not seen his movie so I cannot comment on it. If you have a beef with him or his movie you should write to him.

"... your highness ..." Honestly, I prefer you refer to me as MOST EXALTED EXCELLENCY (... genuflecting is optional). THAT'S A JOKE, BTW.

For a very brief period, I was what you may refer to as a "card carrying member" of the National Wildlife Federation. I know where so-called Environmentalist WERE coming from in the past & I have a pretty good idea where they are currently coming from, now.

YOUR WORDS are echoes of things which they voice.

YOU may, as I have already acknowledged, be sincere; but, they aren't.

YOU may feel as though you are informed; but, you are not.

"All the facts." Sorry, that was hyperbole -- I should have said BOTH SIDES of the PEAK OIL (aka "Global Warming" -- the two topics are intertwined as promulgated by Environmentalists OR those who accept the Environmentalists' point of view whereby one bolsters the other) argument ... and, neither SIDE is monolithic in its thinking.

That having been said, you really need to buy a dictionary.

An analogy IS a comparison.

Being capable of vocalizing the words on a page is not literacy; and, comprehension is MORE than simply knowing what individual words mean ...

The analogy was to acknowledge another uneducable "group" (i.e., pseudo-Christians) on YOUR behalf to illustrate that there are people on both ends of the spectrum who are more-often-than-not too lazy to bother with MORE THAN that which has been spoon fed to them OR whose thought process is so parochial that they cannot conceive of a reality beyond what they have already been shown OR __[fill in the blank]__.

Al Gore. You know who he is, don't you? You know that he is the principle advocate for that which you are espousing, don't you? You do know that his movie is about "Global Warming" ...

If Gore's thinking is flawed and/or insincere, shouldn't one question his (and, by extension, your) advocacy?

BTW. Since this is a Cycling Forum, let me just note that parochial views include attitudes toward cycling equipment -- there are some ROADIES who would never consider using Shimano simply because it isn't Campagnolo ... while there are others who would never consider Campagnolo because all they know is Shimano components. And, I have certainly encountered some MTBers who hate Shimano (for whatever reason) that they refuse to have Shimano components on their bikes. THIS IS AN INDIRECT WAY OF SAYING THAT THIS OFF-TOPIC DISCUSSION DOESN'T BELONG IN THIS FORUM.

 

[Treky]

alfeng, I decided to quit trying to make sense of what you say and simply note that we agree to disagree. I tried not to make any assumptions about how you got your views. You failed to give me the benfit of the doubt in how I got my views. I have learned to think for myself and never take everything I hear/read as plain truth. The evidence is in front of us, but only if you want to see it.

I speak for myself, as an ordinary, common sense guy. You can go ahead and take it up with Mr. Gore. Sounds like you have an axe to grind. I am done with this thread.

Safe riding.

 

[mopar]

I had to leave this thread, this was along time ago, and you guys were still going at it. You know what I was doing on 666, the date of the post above mine? I was WORKING so I could pay for GAS to put in my ATV which GAS has gone DOWN in price recently here. Actually, I did that all summer, so yeah...take that.