Ontario Helmet Law being pushed through

Discussion in 'rec.bicycles.soc' started by Chris B., Nov 4, 2004.

  1. Chris B.

    Chris B. Guest

    The law would apply to people who skateboard, ride scooters or in-line
    skate. Apparently they have decided to leave adult cyclists alone for
    now.

    http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20041104-009/page.asp

    My favourite part:

    "That includes N.D.P. MPP Michael Prue, who lost his brother to a bike
    accident in 1998. “There isn't a day goes by that I don't see someone
    on the streets of Toronto, an adult, with no helmet on their head, and
    I want to get out of my car or off the sidewalk and I want to grab
    them and I want to shake them,” he reflects. “I want to tell them that
    this was an absolutely wrong thing, a bad thing to happen."

    --
    "Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its
    victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under
    robber-barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber-
    baron's cruelty may at some point be satiated; but those who
    torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they
    do so with the approval of their own conscience."

    - C.S. Lewis
     
    Tags:


  2. On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:28:26 -0500, Chris B.
    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    <[email protected]>:

    >"That includes N.D.P. MPP Michael Prue, who lost his brother to a bike
    >accident in 1998. “There isn't a day goes by that I don't see someone
    >on the streets of Toronto, an adult, with no helmet on their head, and
    >I want to get out of my car or off the sidewalk and I want to grab
    >them and I want to shake them,” he reflects. “I want to tell them that
    >this was an absolutely wrong thing, a bad thing to happen."


    Amazing, isn't it, how people read what they want to read into the
    statement "Helmets cannot always protect against injury. Even a very
    low speed impact can result in serious injury or death. Any helmet
    subjected to a sever impact should be discarded and destroyed, even
    though damage may not be outwardly visible. Since this helmet is made
    of polystyrene foam, there is a chance it may be penetrated by sharp
    objects" (instructions from a Bell helmet)

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  3. Chris B.

    Chris B. Guest

    On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:28:26 -0500, Chris B.
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >The law would apply to people who skateboard, ride scooters or in-line
    >skate. Apparently they have decided to leave adult cyclists alone for
    >now.


    Oops, I was mistaken. This law will apply to cyclists of all ages as
    well.

    >http://www.pulse24.com/News/Top_Story/20041104-009/page.asp
    >
    >My favourite part:
    >
    >"That includes N.D.P. MPP Michael Prue, who lost his brother to a bike
    >accident in 1998. “There isn't a day goes by that I don't see someone
    >on the streets of Toronto, an adult, with no helmet on their head, and
    >I want to get out of my car or off the sidewalk and I want to grab
    >them and I want to shake them,” he reflects. “I want to tell them that
    >this was an absolutely wrong thing, a bad thing to happen."
     
  4. Chris B.

    Chris B. Guest

    <Crosspost re-inserted>

    On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:20:55 -0500, "Micheal Artindale"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Are you for or against it? I am FOR it.
    >
    >Micheal


    I wonder why. Are you aware that mandatory helmet laws implemented in
    Alberta, Nova Scotia, New Zealand and parts of Australia have not only
    not shown benefits but have actually had negative effects (decreased
    numbers of cyclists in all cases and sometimes an increase in the rate
    of head injury after the law is enacted)?

    http://www.cycle-helmets.com/canada_helmets.html

    http://www.imt.ie/displayarticle.asp?AID=5724&NS=1&SID=1

    http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/nytimes.html

    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1023.html

    http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1020.html

    http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/hfaq.html

    http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/fatals.html

    Helmets are already mandatory for children in Ontario (not that the
    law is enforced). If reducing the rates of injury and death to
    cyclists is such a priority, time, money and energy would be far, far
    better spent on teaching cyclists to ride lawfully and skillfully on
    the road. Children nowadays don't have any idea of how to ride safely
    because their parents, who themselves haven't cycled in years if at
    all, also have no clue. When one looks at how cycling is portrayed by
    the safety zealots, the media and even many cyclists who should know
    better, it's no wonder that so many refuse to ride a bike stating
    'it's too dangerous'.

    Don't you think that it's at all possible that adults are capable of
    informing themselves sufficiently to evaluate the risks of the
    activities they are engaging in and deciding for themselves what
    safety equipment is necessary, if any?

    Does cycling without a helmet really need to be be criminal?
     
  5. Bob Burns

    Bob Burns Guest

    Chris B. wrote:
    > <Crosspost re-inserted>
    >
    > On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:20:55 -0500, "Micheal Artindale"
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >> Are you for or against it? I am FOR it.
    >>
    >> Micheal

    >
    > I wonder why. Are you aware that mandatory helmet laws implemented in
    > Alberta, Nova Scotia, New Zealand and parts of Australia have not only
    > not shown benefits but have actually had negative effects (decreased
    > numbers of cyclists in all cases and sometimes an increase in the rate
    > of head injury after the law is enacted)?
    >
    > http://www.cycle-helmets.com/canada_helmets.html
    >
    > http://www.imt.ie/displayarticle.asp?AID=5724&NS=1&SID=1
    >
    > http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/nytimes.html
    >
    > http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1023.html
    >
    > http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1020.html
    >
    > http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/hfaq.html
    >
    > http://www.magma.ca/~ocbc/fatals.html
    >
    > Helmets are already mandatory for children in Ontario (not that the
    > law is enforced). If reducing the rates of injury and death to
    > cyclists is such a priority, time, money and energy would be far, far
    > better spent on teaching cyclists to ride lawfully and skillfully on
    > the road. Children nowadays don't have any idea of how to ride safely
    > because their parents, who themselves haven't cycled in years if at
    > all, also have no clue. When one looks at how cycling is portrayed by
    > the safety zealots, the media and even many cyclists who should know
    > better, it's no wonder that so many refuse to ride a bike stating
    > 'it's too dangerous'.
    >
    > Don't you think that it's at all possible that adults are capable of
    > informing themselves sufficiently to evaluate the risks of the
    > activities they are engaging in and deciding for themselves what
    > safety equipment is necessary, if any?
    >
    > Does cycling without a helmet really need to be be criminal?


    I always wear a helmet. I destroyed one a month ago in a crash- and walked
    away. it will not prevent all injuries, but it improves your odds of
    walking away. That said, not sure I want a law mandating helmets. Here in
    PA they just repealed the motorcycle helmet law.

    --
    Bob Burns
    Mill Hall PA
    [email protected]
     
  6. Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> writes:

    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    > spam-thanks-rogers.com says...
    >>
    >> I wonder why. Are you aware that mandatory helmet laws implemented in
    >> Alberta, Nova Scotia, New Zealand and parts of Australia have not only
    >> not shown benefits but have actually had negative effects (decreased
    >> numbers of cyclists in all cases and sometimes an increase in the rate
    >> of head injury after the law is enacted)?
    >>

    >
    > Ho hum, that would be a neat trick considering the helmet laws are not
    > even enforced outside of Halifax in Nova Scotia. Which makes me think
    > the rest of these "statitics" are in quesiton.


    Are you saying that people should obey the law only if it is actually and
    actively enforced?

    Dragan

    --
    Dragan Cvetkovic,

    To be or not to be is true. G. Boole No it isn't. L. E. J. Brouwer

    !!! Sender/From address is bogus. Use reply-to one !!!
     
  7. Mitch Haley

    Mitch Haley Guest

    Chris Phillipo wrote:
    > Uh, what?? I'm saying that he constantly posts statistics that claim
    > helmet use is detrimental to the health of the people because it deters
    > them from riding, I counter that in Nova Scotia helmet use is not
    > enforced so where exactly is this deterrent for riders?


    Australia.
    I don't recall anybody claiming that ridership has gone down in NS.
     
  8. maxo

    maxo Guest

    On Thu, 04 Nov 2004 17:28:26 -0500, Chris B. wrote:

    > Apparently they have decided to leave adult cyclists alone for
    > now.


    Helmet laws do nothing to stop people from riding like idiots.

    Ticketing irresponsible riders might...
     
  9. On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:00:24 GMT, maxo <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Helmet laws do nothing to stop people from riding like idiots.


    They do! They do!

    Oh, riding /like idiots/. As you were then.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  10. Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> writes:

    > I'm saying that he constantly posts statistics that claim
    > helmet use is detrimental to the health of the people because it deters
    > them from riding, I counter that in Nova Scotia helmet use is not
    > enforced so where exactly is this deterrent for riders?


    Chris, these two statements don't oppose and contradict each other.


    --
    Dragan Cvetkovic,

    To be or not to be is true. G. Boole No it isn't. L. E. J. Brouwer

    !!! Sender/From address is bogus. Use reply-to one !!!
     
  11. maxo

    maxo Guest

    On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:10:06 +0000, Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

    >>Helmet laws do nothing to stop people from riding like idiots.

    >
    > They do! They do!


    I just think this is an absurd way to go about public safety. I'm no more
    against helmets than seatbelts and airbags...but address the cause--why
    are bikes & riders hitting the pavement--not the symptom--purple owies.

    I've lived in places in the world where people are much more bike
    savvy than in the US and Canada and follow the rules of the road
    better--they don't seem to wear a lot of helmets, though they're catching
    on for kids, but they don't seem to fall down as much either. ;)
     
  12. On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 16:26:31 GMT, Chris Phillipo
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >When I see soemone without a helmet I an urked by it but when I see
    >soemone riding towards me on the wrong side of the road I can only think
    >that Darwinism sure takes a long time to kick in.


    When I see someone else riding without a helmet I think :Good, one
    less to be counted as a stealth vote for compulsion. The only reason
    we don't have a id law now is that wearing rates are so low it would
    be unenforceable.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  13. Chris Phillipo wrote:

    >
    > When I see soemone without a helmet I an urked [sic] by it...


    Why on earth?

    When I see someone riding without a helmet, I think "Cool - there's
    someone riding!"

    Your post indicates the anti-bicyclist mindset of the helmet promoters.
    You must actually feel that riding a bicycle does more harm than good!

    --
    Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
    Substitute cc dot ysu dot
    edu]
     
  14. AustinMN

    AustinMN Guest

    Chris Phillipo wrote
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >>
    >> > I'm saying that he constantly posts statistics that claim
    >> > helmet use is detrimental to the health of the people because it deters
    >> > them from riding, I counter that in Nova Scotia helmet use is not
    >> > enforced so where exactly is this deterrent for riders?

    >>
    >> Chris, these two statements don't oppose and contradict each other.
    >>
    >>

    >
    > Come again?


    Take a deep breath. Just because a law is not enforced, doesn't mean there
    aren't people who obey it.

    The existence of the law (whether or not it is enforced) _is_ a deterrent.

    Austin
     
  15. AustinMN wrote:

    > Chris Phillipo wrote
    >
    >> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >>
    >>>
    >>> > I'm saying that he constantly posts statistics that claim
    >>> > helmet use is detrimental to the health of the people because it
    >>> deters
    >>> > them from riding, I counter that in Nova Scotia helmet use is not
    >>> > enforced so where exactly is this deterrent for riders?
    >>>
    >>> Chris, these two statements don't oppose and contradict each other.
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> Come again?

    >
    >
    > Take a deep breath. Just because a law is not enforced, doesn't mean
    > there aren't people who obey it.
    >
    > The existence of the law (whether or not it is enforced) _is_ a deterrent.
    >


    More to the point, just because a law is not enforced - or, more likely,
    not _usually_ enforced - doesn't mean that there are people who are put
    off by the _possibility_ of enforcement.

    Those who think a MHL has no effect on cycling are being very unrealistic.

    --
    Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
    Substitute cc dot ysu dot
    edu]
     
  16. Frank Krygowski wrote:

    > AustinMN wrote:
    >
    >> Chris Phillipo wrote
    >>
    >>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> I'm saying that he constantly posts statistics that claim
    >>>>> helmet use is detrimental to the health of the people because it
    >>>> deters
    >>>>> them from riding, I counter that in Nova Scotia helmet use is not
    >>>>> enforced so where exactly is this deterrent for riders?
    >>>>
    >>>> Chris, these two statements don't oppose and contradict each other.
    >>>
    >>> Come again?

    >> Take a deep breath. Just because a law is not enforced, doesn't mean
    >> there aren't people who obey it. The existence of the law (whether or
    >> not it is enforced) _is_ a deterrent.

    >
    > More to the point, just because a law is not enforced - or, more likely,
    > not _usually_ enforced - doesn't mean that there are people who are put
    > off by the _possibility_ of enforcement.


    To go even further, the mere existence of a law purported to be for
    "safety" purposes, even if it is *guaranteed* to be unenforced, can
    potentially be a deterrent, since it spreads the idea, sometimes
    unconsciously, that the activity is dangerous.

    --
    Benjamin Lewis

    Evelyn the dog, having undergone further modification, pondered the
    significance of short-person behavior in pedal-depressed panchromatic
    resonance and other highly ambient domains... "Arf", she said.
     
  17. Maggie

    Maggie Guest

    > Does cycling without a helmet really need to be be criminal?

    Who are you hurting beside yourself if you choose not to wear a
    helmet? What is the crime? I think children should wear helmets, but
    adults should make their own choice. I rode on the back of a
    motorcycle without a helmet. The laws were not enforced back then, but
    I am glad my son wears one when he goes out on his motorcycle. It was
    a choice. Stupid or not, it was our choice not to wear helmets. My son
    must have one on or he will be pulled over. I am glad its not a choice
    for him.
     
  18. AustinMN

    AustinMN Guest

    Chris Phillipo wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    > says...
    >> Subject: Re: Ontario Helmet Law being pushed through
    >> From: "AustinMN" <[email protected]>
    >> Newsgroups: rec.bicycles.misc, rec.bicycles.soc, ont.bicycle
    >>
    >> Chris Phillipo wrote
    >> > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >> >>
    >> >> > I'm saying that he constantly posts statistics that claim
    >> >> > helmet use is detrimental to the health of the people because it
    >> >> > deters
    >> >> > them from riding, I counter that in Nova Scotia helmet use is not
    >> >> > enforced so where exactly is this deterrent for riders?
    >> >>
    >> >> Chris, these two statements don't oppose and contradict each other.
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >
    >> > Come again?

    >>
    >> Take a deep breath. Just because a law is not enforced, doesn't mean
    >> there
    >> aren't people who obey it.
    >>
    >> The existence of the law (whether or not it is enforced) _is_ a
    >> deterrent.
    >>
    >> Austin
    >>

    >
    > Are you listening? I said ridership is UP not DOWN. His study is
    > flawed in it's collection methods.


    Then your location is a fluke. Virtually everywhere else MHL's are put in
    place, ridership declines.

    But my suspicion is that your collection methods are more flawed than the
    one who found ridership is down. You do base your statement on a scientific
    survey, not your own impression, right?

    Austin
    --
    I'm pedaling as fast as I durn well please!
    There are no X characters in my address
     
  19. Chris Phillipo wrote:

    >
    >
    > Are you listening? I said ridership is UP not DOWN. His study is
    > flawed in it's collection methods.


    IIRC, ridership is finally "up" in some other jurisdictions that
    instituted helmet laws. But wait! It's "up" compared to what it was 10
    years ago, when the laws were introduced. Does that mean the effect of
    MHLs is to increase riding?

    Hardly! The immediate effect of MHLs has been to reduce riding
    significantly. Enforced MHLs have been shown to reduce riding by about
    30%, and even more among certain age groups. Given enough time, other
    changes _may_ lead to a recovery. For example, population growth may
    eventually allow one to say "there are now more riders than before" -
    but that doesn't mean there are more riders than there _would_ have been!

    I'm curious how someone can believe a MHL increases ridership. In fact,
    I'm curious how someone can believe it's neutral. Certainly, there will
    be _some_ people who will say "If I'm forced to wear a helmet, I'm not
    riding." Certainly there will be those who say "Damn, if it's so
    dangerous they require a helmet, I don't want to do it at all!"

    Where do you find people who say "Oh, I'm not allowed to ride without a
    helmet, eh? Great! That makes me want to take up cycling!"



    --
    Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
    Substitute cc dot ysu dot
    edu]
     
  20. Maggie wrote:

    >>Does cycling without a helmet really need to be be criminal?

    >
    >
    > Who are you hurting beside yourself if you choose not to wear a
    > helmet? What is the crime? I think children should wear helmets, but
    > adults should make their own choice.


    I think parents should be allowed to make the choice for their children.

    My kids are grown, but they _certainly_ did a lot of riding without bike
    helmets. In fact, I assume _all_ of us did.

    A parent is allowed to let his kid climb a tree without a helmet. He's
    allowed to let his kid play pickup baseball without a helmet. He's
    allowed to let his kid ride his pony without a helmet. In each of
    these, and many other situations, the choice is reasonably left up to
    the parent.

    What in the world is so dangerous about cycling that justifies
    overpowering parental judgement?


    --
    Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
    Substitute cc dot ysu dot
    edu]
     
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