Ontario Helmet Law being pushed through



B

Bill Baka

Guest
Frank Krygowski wrote:
> Bill Z. wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>> I'm sure that Bill, in his studied ignorance, has never viewed the
>>> Safe Kids video titled "Jello in a Jar." A few years ago, this was
>>> widely shown at any gathering at which Safe Kids could get a foot in a
>>> door.

>>
>>
>>
>> Krygowksi, being rude as ever, fails to realize that "Safe Kids"
>> videos are hardly required viewing material. You'd have to wonder
>> why he'd waste his time watching them if he is as experienced a
>> cyclist as he pretends to be.

>
>
> The video was being shown to me by a representative of Safe Kids,
> because I was our club's Safety Chairman, and was teaching cycling
> classes. She was trying to convince me that a) helmets really, really
> WERE the most important thing about bike safety, and b) I should show
> this "wonderful" video to my club and to any cycling classes I taught.
> She was also hoping to get my support for a mandatory helmet law.
>
>

The helmet won't do much good if the kid pulls in front of a cement
truck or Semi, will it.???
My stepson and wife saw a man (drunk) try to hop a moving train on an
overpass bridge and pieces of him fell on the people picnicking below.
They had to hose the tracks and gather him up in a bucket, then remove
and replace the sand. What did my stepson say? "ooh, badddo, cool."
That one is not mine by genetics, thank God.
My granddaughter saw one of her friends get run over by a Semi at a fair
speed she was literally cut in pieces, to where they found her arm in
some bushes.
I don't think a helmet would have done much good.
Bill Baka
I hope you aren't eating when you read this one.
 
B

Bill Baka

Guest
Mitch Haley wrote:
> Bill Baka wrote:
>
>>P.S. my 35 degree riding has made me wonder about a full face shield
>>with a plastic view cover just to beep my eyes, ears, nose, etc. warm.

>
>
>
> The problem is accomplishing that without trapping your hot wet breath
> inside and blinding you with condensation on the windshield.
>
> Mitch.


I think they make some where the plastic is not flush with the helmet
and allows the humid air to escape. Not sure many motorcyclists are
breathing all that hard anyway.
Bill
 
B

Bill Z.

Guest
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> writes:

> Bill Z. wrote:
>
> > Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >>I'm sure that Bill, in his studied ignorance, has never viewed the
> >>Safe Kids video titled "Jello in a Jar." A few years ago, this was
> >>widely shown at any gathering at which Safe Kids could get a foot in a
> >>door.

> > Krygowksi, being rude as ever, fails to realize that "Safe Kids"
> > videos are hardly required viewing material. You'd have to wonder
> > why he'd waste his time watching them if he is as experienced a
> > cyclist as he pretends to be.

>
> The video was being shown to me by a representative of Safe Kids,
> because I was our club's Safety Chairman, and was teaching cycling
> classes. She was trying to convince me that a) helmets really, really
> WERE the most important thing about bike safety, and b) I should show
> this "wonderful" video to my club and to any cycling classes I
> taught. She was also hoping to get my support for a mandatory helmet
> law.


Oh, so the truth (partly?) comes out. Krygowski was acting as a
representative of a club, and he was watching them as part of that
function. Very few people represent clubs or other organizations
so Krygowksi's claim that this was some sort of grevious "helmet
promotion" is just plain silly - he has not provided anything to
justify his assertion, which should include proof that a large
number of people see this stuff and are influenced by it.

BTW, doctors get a fair bit or promotional material from drug
companies. One of their functions is to shield patients from this
stuff and filter out the fluff. The only reason for you to complain
is if you were having difficulty performing a similar function. If
you can't, I'd suggest letting someone with a bit more backbone
act as your club's contact point, instead of whining here.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
B

Bill Z.

Guest
Bill Baka <[email protected]> writes:


> Well,
> This Bill thinks that those things they present in school are brain
> dead and should be banned from little Johnnies or Susies classrom.


Until they eliminated it due to budget contraints, our schools had
a bike education program taught by an _Effective Cycling_ instructor
and it included time spent actually riding. That's too bad, but
one should really blame the "don't tax but spend like crazy"
Republicans for the budget mess everyone is stuck with.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
Bill Z. wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >
> > The [helmet promotion] video was being shown to me by a

representative of Safe Kids,
> > because I was our club's Safety Chairman, and was teaching cycling
> > classes. She was trying to convince me that a) helmets really,

really
> > WERE the most important thing about bike safety, and b) I should

show
> > this "wonderful" video to my club and to any cycling classes I
> > taught. She was also hoping to get my support for a mandatory

helmet
> > law.

>
> Oh, so the truth (partly?) comes out. Krygowski was acting as a
> representative of a club, and he was watching them as part of that
> function. Very few people represent clubs or other organizations
> so Krygowksi's claim that this was some sort of grevious "helmet
> promotion" is just plain silly - he has not provided anything to
> justify his assertion, which should include proof that a large
> number of people see this stuff and are influenced by it.


It's fun watching you try to GUESS what's going on in the world, Bill!

The video was shown to me when I was part of a crew of bike club
volunteers staffing a table at a local mall's "health fair." They had
many organizations present, and they had literally thousands of people
stopping by to view the exhibits and talk to the representatives.

The Safe Kids table was not far from our bike club's table. Safe Kids
had reams of helmet promotion literature on their table - in fact, bike
helmet promotion was their main activity at that time. And they had a
TV and VCR going continuously, playing that helmet video over and over.


By your standards, I'm sure it was a minor helmet promotion effort. It
reached only thousands of people in a three day event. And after all,
anything smaller than the population of the San Francisco Bay area
doesn't count in your mind. We've already heard that from you! ;-)
Thanks for yet another amusing post!
 
B

Bill Z.

Guest
[email protected] writes:

> Bill Z. wrote:
> > Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> > >
> > > The [helmet promotion] video was being shown to me by a
> > > representative of Safe Kids, because I was our club's Safety
> > > Chairman, ..

>
> > Oh, so the truth (partly?) comes out. Krygowski was acting as a
> > representative of a club, and he was watching them as part of that
> > function. Very few people represent clubs or other organizations
> > so Krygowksi's claim that this was some sort of grevious "helmet
> > promotion" is just plain silly - he has not provided anything to
> > justify his assertion, which should include proof that a large
> > number of people see this stuff and are influenced by it.

>
> It's fun watching you try to GUESS what's going on in the world, Bill!


It's "fun" watching you put out one version of the facts after another,
usually with missing data or various other holes that you leave to
the reader's imagination (knowing that what the reader imagines will
most likely be quite different from what actually happened.)

> The video was shown to me when I was part of a crew of bike club
> volunteers staffing a table at a local mall's "health fair." They had
> many organizations present, and they had literally thousands of people
> stopping by to view the exhibits and talk to the representatives.


Uh huh. Sure Frank. You were "staffing a table at a local mall's
'health fair'" and somewhow they could show you a video? Where was
the power source? Did they bring a laptop along, did they give you a
handout for later viewing? Did you just make this up?

> The Safe Kids table was not far from our bike club's table. Safe Kids
> had reams of helmet promotion literature on their table - in fact, bike
> helmet promotion was their main activity at that time. And they had a
> TV and VCR going continuously, playing that helmet video over and over.


Oh, so you weren't "staffing a table" when you saw this video but
instead searched them out. Were you on a break or just goofing off?
Sounds to me that you were beating the bushes looking for "evidence"
of your favorite obsession. :)

> By your standards, I'm sure it was a minor helmet promotion effort.


A table in a single mall surrounded by all sorts of other distractions?
Sounds like a pretty minor effort to me. If you think otherwise, I'll
refer you to what the Palo Alto Daily News (slightly overpriced) said
about the "SpongeBob" flap - it quoted a corporate attorney as saying
that people complaining about some nondescript square holding hands with
some equally nondescript object should see their doctors to increase
their meds.

> It reached only thousands of people in a three day event. And
> after all, anything smaller than the population of the San Francisco
> Bay area doesn't count in your mind. We've already heard that from
> you! ;-) Thanks for yet another amusing post!


"Thanks" for showing that you are a fool who pretends that a small
outfit touting something would be noticed and actually taken seriously
amid all the people selling every scam under the earth and more.

This is so trivial that your complaints simply look pathetic.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
F

Frank Krygowski

Guest
Bill Z. wrote:
> [email protected] writes:
>
>>It's fun watching you try to GUESS what's going on in the world, Bill!

>
>
> It's "fun" watching you put out one version of the facts after another,
> usually with missing data or various other holes that you leave to
> the reader's imagination (knowing that what the reader imagines will
> most likely be quite different from what actually happened.)


I try to give enough details for a reasonable reader. I see nobody else
having a problem with that!

I imagine you'll next be asking for the hair color of the Safe Kids rep,
the exact date of the event, the GPS coordinates of the Safe Kids table,
etc, etc? :)

>>The video was shown to me when I was part of a crew of bike club
>>volunteers staffing a table at a local mall's "health fair." They had
>>many organizations present, and they had literally thousands of people
>>stopping by to view the exhibits and talk to the representatives.

>
>
> Uh huh. Sure Frank. You were "staffing a table at a local mall's
> 'health fair'" and somewhow they could show you a video? Where was
> the power source? Did they bring a laptop along, did they give you a
> handout for later viewing? Did you just make this up?


You'll find this hard to believe, but this particular mall actually has
electricity! Pretty darned high tech, isn't it? ;-)

>>The Safe Kids table was not far from our bike club's table. Safe Kids
>>had reams of helmet promotion literature on their table - in fact, bike
>>helmet promotion was their main activity at that time. And they had a
>>TV and VCR going continuously, playing that helmet video over and over.

>
>
> Oh, so you weren't "staffing a table" when you saw this video but
> instead searched them out. Were you on a break or just goofing off?
> Sounds to me that you were beating the bushes looking for "evidence"
> of your favorite obsession. :)


Actually, that Safe Kids person came to our table and asked me to visit
their table to see the video. She was quite confident it would convince
me to endorse mandatory helmets. So after my volunteer time was done, I
went to see it. Of course, I wasn't convinced.

Really, Bill, all this shouldn't be too hard to figure out!

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com.
Substitute cc dot ysu dot
edu]
 
J

Just zis Guy, you know?

Guest
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:30:03 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>You've made claims about "helmet promotion" and to show that it is
>less trivial, you should be able to model this as advertising
>impressions, and see if it reaches the threshold needed for a
>real advertising campaign.


You are a laugh sometimes. You know, I was recently visiting schools
with my son who is choosing a high school. Every school we visited
had posters promoting helmet use. Not one had a single poster
promoting any other aspect of cycle safety. Do you believe that
helmets are not just the single most important component of cycle
safety, but so much so as to allow all others to be safely ignored? I
don't think so.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
J

Just zis Guy, you know?

Guest
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:31:50 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>Mentioning the "H" word as in "the victim was/was-not wearing a helmet"
>is not promoting anything. It is simply reporting the facts, whether
>accurately or not. Most of the time that is all the reporter says.


Except that for some reason the helmet often seems to escape mention
when the victim was wearing one. It's almost as if the reporters
don't want to undermine people's faith in the magic foam hats...

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
J

Just zis Guy, you know?

Guest
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:37:18 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>> And when you admitted to not having read one study you used the excuse
>> of the library being closed for July 4 (presumably you live in some
>> kind of Groundhog Day, since it had been published years before).


>Let's see. I stated I *found* a URL that day (the discussion had
>been dead for years on the newsgroup I'm following) put the URL in
>a response, and you and maybe some others started to whine that I
>didn't first go down to the library on a day it was closed. Did
>you want me to break in or something?


Here it is:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/3d4fc83557666d0d?dmode=source

Nor did you account for your failure to obtain the paper in the years
between publication and your raising it.

Question: now that the library is open after the July 4 holiday, have
you read it? My money says: not yet, not hardly.

>> You
>> have also admitted to only having read the abstracts of other articles
>> you attempted to discuss ...


>Guy, you are a liar.


As we see from the link above, it is you who are lying.

I see that really this is a kind of Yad Gohdourg - where everybody but
you moves on, and you alone have your memory rolled back every night.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
J

Just zis Guy, you know?

Guest
On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:33:42 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>Oh come off it. Steven has no obligation to actively oppose
>legistation in a country he doesn't live in (and he subsequently
>did write a letter, as you should well know.)


So why did he get involved in the argument in the first place? From
where I stand he is sitting there telling those of us who have
successfully opposed helmet laws in the past that our methods cannot
possibly work, telling us that only his method can work, but he is
strangely reluctant to take any part in proving that by applying his
method. I wonder why? Surely it is not because he is anything less
than 100% confident of his own rightness - we have seen enough of
Scharf by now to know that could never happen.

Remember the old saw about "First they came for the Jews." If Scharf
genuinely believes helmet laws are bad, he should oppose them
everywhere, otherwise he risks being crushed under the wheels of the
polystyrene juggernaut.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
B

Bill Z.

Guest
Frank Krygowski <[email protected]> writes:

> Bill Z. wrote:
> > [email protected] writes:
> >
> >>It's fun watching you try to GUESS what's going on in the world, Bill!


> > It's "fun" watching you put out one version of the facts after
> > another, usually with missing data or various other holes that you
> > leave to the reader's imagination (knowing that what the reader
> > imagines will most likely be quite different from what actually
> > happened.)

>
> I try to give enough details for a reasonable reader. I see nobody
> else having a problem with that!


More Krygowksi spin - no one else was paying attention (although Guy,
being equally disingenious, will probably jump at the chance.)

> I imagine you'll next be asking for the hair color of the Safe Kids
> rep, the exact date of the event, the GPS coordinates of the Safe Kids
> table, etc, etc? :)


Typical Krygowksi hyperbole!

> > Sure Frank. You were "staffing a table at a local mall's
> > 'health fair'" and somewhow they could show you a video? Where was
> > the power source? Did they bring a laptop along, did they give you a
> > handout for later viewing? Did you just make this up?

>
> You'll find this hard to believe, but this particular mall actually
> has electricity! Pretty darned high tech, isn't it? ;-)


Usually when Joe Blow's little organization with 20 real members,
10 associative members, and 3 unhappy members shows up at some "faire"
along with the even more obscure Veterans of Foriegn Women, they
just get a table with now power. You know, like the people sitting
at small tables asking you to sign petitions, donate to charities,
etc. Of course, you knew that, didn't you. Did *your* group have
any power run to your table? Why would a cycling club even need it?

> >>The Safe Kids table was not far from our bike club's table. Safe Kids
> >>had reams of helmet promotion literature on their table - in fact, bike
> >>helmet promotion was their main activity at that time. And they had a
> >>TV and VCR going continuously, playing that helmet video over and over.

> > Oh, so you weren't "staffing a table" when you saw this video but
> > instead searched them out. Were you on a break or just goofing off?
> > Sounds to me that you were beating the bushes looking for "evidence"
> > of your favorite obsession. :)

>
> Actually, that Safe Kids person came to our table and asked me to
> visit their table to see the video. She was quite confident it would
> convince me to endorse mandatory helmets. So after my volunteer time
> was done, I went to see it. Of course, I wasn't convinced.


You mean she thought you looked weak minded enough to be convinced by
her no doubt amateurish salesmanship? :)

> Really, Bill, all this shouldn't be too hard to figure out!


I'm supposed to guess which of several options might apply when you,
of course, refuse to say? I do, however, think it is clear that the
"facts" are just a tad different than one would expect from your
initial spin on the subject. And that is typical of you (and of
course is why I asked - so your tactics would be obvious to even
casual readers.)

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
B

Bill Z.

Guest
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> writes:

> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:30:03 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
> wrote in message <[email protected]>:
>
> >You've made claims about "helmet promotion" and to show that it is
> >less trivial, you should be able to model this as advertising
> >impressions, and see if it reaches the threshold needed for a
> >real advertising campaign.

>
> You are a laugh sometimes. You know, I was recently visiting schools
> with my son who is choosing a high school. Every school we visited
> had posters promoting helmet use.


Posters and lions and tigers and bears, oh my. Get a grip, Guy.

> Not one had a single poster promoting any other aspect of cycle
> safety. Do you believe that helmets are not just the single most
> important component of cycle safety, but so much so as to allow all
> others to be safely ignored? I don't think so.


Ever take a first aid course where they tell you, "first stop the
bleeding and keep him breathing"? It takes a few minutes at most to
learn how to fit and fasten a helmet, which would hopefully minimize
the damage if your kid crashes before learning how to ride
competently.

Did it occur to you that they might teach how to cycle safely in
class, where more than the few seconds needed to digest a poster
could be applied to the subject?

Oh, I guess not. You simply react to a poster like the bull in
front of the red cape.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
B

Bill Z.

Guest
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> writes:

> On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 07:31:50 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
> wrote in message <[email protected]>:
>
> >Mentioning the "H" word as in "the victim was/was-not wearing a helmet"
> >is not promoting anything. It is simply reporting the facts, whether
> >accurately or not. Most of the time that is all the reporter says.

>
> Except that for some reason the helmet often seems to escape mention
> when the victim was wearing one. It's almost as if the reporters
> don't want to undermine people's faith in the magic foam hats...


That's not true either. Looks to me like you are making things up
again. I'll flush your remaining messages from today.


--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 

RogerDodger

New Member
Jan 10, 2004
388
0
0
Just zis Guy said:
I see that really this is a kind of Yad Gohdourg - where everybody but you moves on, and you alone have your memory rolled back every night.

Guy
éhcuot

It's all part of the method of distracting discussion from the central issues - Bill needs to sidetrack discussion away into some obscure, irrelevant or imaginary detail. If we are able to stay with the central issues then the end result is the rug gets pulled from under Bill.

What Bill has to do in order to avoid having his position and arguments shown as faulty is divert discussion away from his weak spot.

Roger
 
E

Erik Freitag

Guest
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:12:28 +0000, Bill Z. wrote:

> Usually when Joe Blow's little organization with 20 real members,
> 10 associative members, and 3 unhappy members shows up at some "faire"
> along with the even more obscure Veterans of Foriegn Women, they
> just get a table with now power. You know, like the people sitting
> at small tables asking you to sign petitions, donate to charities,
> etc.


I believe this is the phenomenon known as "projection".
 
B

Bill Z.

Guest
Erik Freitag <[email protected]> writes:

> On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:12:28 +0000, Bill Z. wrote:
>
> > Usually when Joe Blow's little organization with 20 real members,
> > 10 associative members, and 3 unhappy members shows up at some "faire"
> > along with the even more obscure Veterans of Foriegn Women, they
> > just get a table with no power. You know, like the people sitting
> > at small tables asking you to sign petitions, donate to charities,
> > etc.

>
> I believe this is the phenomenon known as "projection".


I'm sure Guy and Frank are "projecting." :) We have an annual event
in town when the main downtown street is closed and a bunch of booths
set up for people selling various arts and crafts. They don't get
any electric power. It would be a pain to run the wiring, with
hundreds of little booths.

My guess is that the group Frank saw had a battery to power their
video. It was probably in some obscure corner (if only because any
prime real estate would be sold to the highest bidder and "Safe
Whatever" wouldn't have the budget to get such a slot.)

He's making a mountain out of a molehill, as usual.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
J

Just zis Guy, you know?

Guest
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:19:17 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>> I was recently visiting schools
>> with my son who is choosing a high school. Every school we visited
>> had posters promoting helmet use.


>Posters and lions and tigers and bears, oh my. Get a grip, Guy.


I have one, thanks - it provides me with the ability to appreciate the
fatuity of the current monomaniacal focus on helmets as the be-all and
end-all of cycle safety.

I can provide any number of examples of helmet promotion, in a variety
of contexts, but am having great difficulty thinking of a single
example of any publicly funded promotion of any other cycle safety
initiative or subject.

>> Not one had a single poster promoting any other aspect of cycle
>> safety. Do you believe that helmets are not just the single most
>> important component of cycle safety, but so much so as to allow all
>> others to be safely ignored? I don't think so.


>Ever take a first aid course where they tell you, "first stop the
>bleeding and keep him breathing"? It takes a few minutes at most to
>learn how to fit and fasten a helmet, which would hopefully minimize
>the damage if your kid crashes before learning how to ride
>competently.


You have that **** about face, as ever. First avoid the crash. Where
is the massive campaign promoting cycle maintenance, conspicuity aids,
correct use of lights, riding technique etc?

>Did it occur to you that they might teach how to cycle safely in
>class, where more than the few seconds needed to digest a poster
>could be applied to the subject?


I suggest you devote some energy to acquiring a clue. Cycling is not
taught in class. The only cycle training they ever get is aged ten
(helmets mandatory), and Michael passed that course independently aged
eight.

>Oh, I guess not. You simply react to a poster like the bull in
>front of the red cape.


Oops, invalid assumption. What a surprise.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
J

Just zis Guy, you know?

Guest
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 02:20:24 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>> Except that for some reason the helmet often seems to escape mention
>> when the victim was wearing one. It's almost as if the reporters
>> don't want to undermine people's faith in the magic foam hats...


>That's not true either. Looks to me like you are making things up
>again.


And your evidence for that assertion is?

> I'll flush your remaining messages from today.


Translation: Laa laa I'm not listening. However, that probably scores
the record for the most pathetic evasion pretext you've ever come up
with, so well done for that at least.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 
J

Just zis Guy, you know?

Guest
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 04:43:38 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>I'm sure Guy and Frank are "projecting."


Up to a point: we are projecting what will happen if a helmet law is
passed. Viz: head injury rates will not reduce, cycling will.

Strangely, although we are not proposing any measure at all other than
"leave it be", we appear to be the only ones producing any evidence.
I wonder why?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

85% of helmet statistics are made up, 69% of them at CHS, Puget Sound
 

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