Open Letter to Steve Bracks & Peter Batchelor

Discussion in 'Australia and New Zealand' started by Ray Peace, Sep 27, 2005.

  1. Ray Peace

    Ray Peace Guest

    Good Morning People,
    Some years back, your Government came out with a long term plan
    entitled `Melbourne 2030', which envisaged, amongst other things, 20 per
    cent of the city's population using public transport.

    In the light of what is happening at present, this would appear to be a
    joke of the most dubious kind. I draw your attention to the following
    facts:

    Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 1885:
    Steam suburban train: 30 k/mh
    Cable tram: 18 k/mh
    Horse-drawn omnibus: 10 k/mh

    Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 2005:
    Electric suburban train: 37 k/mh
    Electric tram: 18 k/mh
    Diesel motor bus 9 k/mh

    As you can clearly see, the improvements in the past 120 years have been
    at best marginal, and in the case of buses, have actually gone slightly
    backwards. It's little wonder that in 2003, of public transport in 100
    cities in the developed world, Melbourne won the booby prize for having
    the SLOWEST.

    When your fastest available form of transport can be easily outrun by a
    racing bicycle, do you wonder that commuters resolutely stay with their
    cars no matter what the petrol price?

    When your fixed rail system has had negligible alterations to its
    network in the past 50 years, do you wonder that the system is
    struggling to cope with the demands of the 21st century?

    Horse drawn buses, cable trams and steam suburban trains have long since
    vanished, but your system has shown negligible improvements over their
    performance. In short, where have you been?

    Isn't it about time you stopped building earthworks primarily of
    interest to future archaeologists and started concentrating on the real
    needs of the metropolis?

    In short, kick some butt at 600 Collins St, tell the faceless
    bureaucrats at VicRoads that the 1954 CRB Roads Master Plan is
    finally off the agenda, and wake up to the real world.
    Sincerely yours,

    Ray Peace
    Ferntree Gully Vic 3156
     
    Tags:


  2. cc Messrs Iemma and Watson.
    Change Melbourne 2030 to Sydney 2010.
    Anyone have relevant speeds for Sydney Transport?

    Regards

    David Bennetts


    "Ray Peace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Good Morning People,
    > Some years back, your Government came out with a long term plan entitled
    > `Melbourne 2030', which envisaged, amongst other things, 20 per cent of
    > the city's population using public transport.
    >
    > In the light of what is happening at present, this would appear to be a
    > joke of the most dubious kind. I draw your attention to the following
    > facts:
    >
    > Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 1885:
    > Steam suburban train: 30 k/mh
    > Cable tram: 18 k/mh
    > Horse-drawn omnibus: 10 k/mh
    >
    > Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 2005:
    > Electric suburban train: 37 k/mh
    > Electric tram: 18 k/mh
    > Diesel motor bus 9 k/mh
    >
    > As you can clearly see, the improvements in the past 120 years have been
    > at best marginal, and in the case of buses, have actually gone slightly
    > backwards. It's little wonder that in 2003, of public transport in 100
    > cities in the developed world, Melbourne won the booby prize for having
    > the SLOWEST.
    >
    > When your fastest available form of transport can be easily outrun by a
    > racing bicycle, do you wonder that commuters resolutely stay with their
    > cars no matter what the petrol price?
    >
    > When your fixed rail system has had negligible alterations to its network
    > in the past 50 years, do you wonder that the system is struggling to cope
    > with the demands of the 21st century?
    >
    > Horse drawn buses, cable trams and steam suburban trains have long since
    > vanished, but your system has shown negligible improvements over their
    > performance. In short, where have you been?
    >
    > Isn't it about time you stopped building earthworks primarily of interest
    > to future archaeologists and started concentrating on the real needs of
    > the metropolis?
    >
    > In short, kick some butt at 600 Collins St, tell the faceless bureaucrats
    > at VicRoads that the 1954 CRB Roads Master Plan is
    > finally off the agenda, and wake up to the real world.
    > Sincerely yours,
    >
    > Ray Peace
    > Ferntree Gully Vic 3156
    >
     
  3. cfsmtb

    cfsmtb New Member

    Joined:
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    Brilliant work Ray! Unfortunately it feels like VicRoads mentality is still thinking akin to the 60's LA highway sprawl... :mad:

    Background: Melbourne 2030
    http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/melbourne2030online/content/introduction/02_summary.html
     
  4. Prometheus

    Prometheus Guest

    Ray Peace wrote:
    SNIP

    >
    > Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 1885:
    > Steam suburban train: 30 k/mh
    > Cable tram: 18 k/mh
    > Horse-drawn omnibus: 10 k/mh
    >
    > Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 2005:
    > Electric suburban train: 37 k/mh
    > Electric tram: 18 k/mh
    > Diesel motor bus 9 k/mh
    >

    SNIP

    Ray,

    The Victorian Government could introduce Japanese style bullet trains
    capable of 400km/h and you'll find that the average speed won't change
    markedly (if at all). Regardless of the technology implemented, a
    vehicle still needs time to accelerate and decelerate to the next stop.
    Therein lays the problem. A train tram or bus accelerates to less
    than top speed before it needs to stop again.
    Then include the stopping time in the calaculation and there's your
    average speed.

    The conundrum here is that the Govt. needs to remove stops to decrease
    travel times. This could also have an adverse effect by increasing
    loading times at the reduced number of stops - this may be a negligable
    trade-off.

    The other option with regard to heavy rail is to duplicate track to
    allow for passing loops, or a through express service. This would
    require more land either side of existing rail infrustructure.
    Considering the layout of the Victorian system, in quite a few places
    the land isn't available or can't be made available due to the
    geography of the area.

    With regard to trams the only options are to reduce the number of stops
    and reduce the impact vehicular traffic has on trams by segregation.
    Perhaps lowering the tram lines by 350mm below the road surface and
    placing physical barriers so that cars/trucks cannot infringe on trams.


    The bus services are by all accounts ridiculous. When driving to work
    on Ballarat Rd, I notice that the average distance between stops is
    less than 250m. A Bus therefore cannot even reach cruising speed and
    doesn't get out of 3rd gear before it needs to stop again to pick up a
    sole commuter who couldn't be bothered walking to the next stop where
    10 peoiple were standing. This is 'great' for the environment as well
    because the bus - continually driving like this put's out more polution
    per km travelled than it would doing 100 km/h down a freeway.
    Again reducing the number of stops by half would be a step in the right
    direction.

    I'm no apologist for any government, but I don't think the Bracks
    Government has done a bad job as far as tweaking a system who's design
    faults stem from the fact that it's 100 years old. And unfortuantley
    that's all they can do is tweak the system. You've done wonderfully at
    highlighting the problems we all know exist, but you haven't given much
    in the way of possible solutions. Perhaps if we all came up with some
    suggestions rather than 'complaints' the faceless bereaucrats would be
    given far more constuctive projects to work on that in the end could
    help us as commuters.
     
  5. Rhubarb

    Rhubarb Guest

    "Ray Peace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Good Morning People,
    > Some years back, your Government came out with a long term plan
    > entitled `Melbourne 2030', which envisaged, amongst other things, 20 per
    > cent of the city's population using public transport.
    >
    > In the light of what is happening at present, this would appear to be a
    > joke of the most dubious kind. I draw your attention to the following
    > facts:
    >
    > Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 1885:
    > Steam suburban train: 30 k/mh
    > Cable tram: 18 k/mh
    > Horse-drawn omnibus: 10 k/mh
    >
    > Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 2005:
    > Electric suburban train: 37 k/mh
    > Electric tram: 18 k/mh
    > Diesel motor bus 9 k/mh


    <Snip>

    Does anyone know the average speed of cars over the Melbourne road network?
     
  6. Prometheus

    Prometheus Guest

    Rhubarb wrote:
    >
    > <Snip>
    >
    > Does anyone know the average speed of cars over the Melbourne road network?


    Well, I guess it would depend on time of day.

    I drive 28km into town and do that trip in 30 -43 mins. So based on
    that I average anywhere between 56 & 39 km/h and 20km of that is on the
    freeway. So it does vary!
     
  7. "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Rhubarb wrote:
    >>
    >> <Snip>
    >>
    >> Does anyone know the average speed of cars over the Melbourne road
    >> network?

    >
    > Well, I guess it would depend on time of day.


    Yes, it does very much, and on the actual location/roads involved as well

    > I drive 28km into town and do that trip in 30 -43 mins. So based on
    > that I average anywhere between 56 & 39 km/h and 20km of that is on the
    > freeway. So it does vary!


    Good for you. I drive 10kms across the suburbs and it takes me anything from
    20 - 30 mins. An average of 20 to 30 kmh really makes the bike a quite
    viable proposition. Now with the higher petrol prices that's just what I'll
    be doing. Crossing Whitehorse Rd and the rail line with freeway-bound
    traffic sucks.

    Cheers
    Peter
     
  8. flyingdutch

    flyingdutch New Member

    Joined:
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    Back in the 70's Melbourne DID have 20% PT use!!!!

    They just never increased PT in line with the population :rolleyes:

    PT use has almost doubled in that time. unfortunately our numbers have grown more so...
     
  9. Tony Bailey

    Tony Bailey Guest

    "Ray Peace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Good Morning People,
    >
    > Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 1885:
    > Steam suburban train: 30 k/mh
    > Cable tram: 18 k/mh
    > Horse-drawn omnibus: 10 k/mh
    >
    > Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 2005:
    > Electric suburban train: 37 k/mh
    > Electric tram: 18 k/mh
    > Diesel motor bus 9 k/mh



    'People of Victoria,

    As Minister of Transport, I can immediately see the answer as displayed in
    Mr Peace's so kindly supplied statistics - your government is going to
    introduce a trial to demonstrate that we can significantly speed up bus
    services, and that trial will commence as soon as we arrange the lease
    documents for the Fosters draught horses.'

    --
    Tony Bailey
     
  10. Fish Womper

    Fish Womper Guest

    On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:21:05 +1000, Ray Peace
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Good Morning People,
    > Some years back, your Government came out with a long term plan
    >entitled `Melbourne 2030', which envisaged, amongst other things, 20 per
    >cent of the city's population using public transport.
    >
    >In the light of what is happening at present, this would appear to be a
    >joke of the most dubious kind. I draw your attention to the following
    >facts:
    >
    >Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 1885:
    >Steam suburban train: 30 k/mh
    >Cable tram: 18 k/mh
    >Horse-drawn omnibus: 10 k/mh
    >
    >Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 2005:
    >Electric suburban train: 37 k/mh
    >Electric tram: 18 k/mh
    >Diesel motor bus 9 k/mh



    Population 1885? Under 1 million I would suggest. In those days
    everyone worked fairly close to home because transport wasn't really
    that flash.

    Population 2005? 3.something million. Many of them work a LONG way
    from home due to our great friend, the motor car.

    Therein lies your answer.

    They have been comparing apples with oranges in Sydney recently as
    well.


    fish
    >
    >As you can clearly see, the improvements in the past 120 years have been
    >at best marginal, and in the case of buses, have actually gone slightly
    >backwards. It's little wonder that in 2003, of public transport in 100
    >cities in the developed world, Melbourne won the booby prize for having
    >the SLOWEST.
    >
    >When your fastest available form of transport can be easily outrun by a
    >racing bicycle, do you wonder that commuters resolutely stay with their
    >cars no matter what the petrol price?
    >
    >When your fixed rail system has had negligible alterations to its
    >network in the past 50 years, do you wonder that the system is
    >struggling to cope with the demands of the 21st century?
    >
    >Horse drawn buses, cable trams and steam suburban trains have long since
    >vanished, but your system has shown negligible improvements over their
    >performance. In short, where have you been?
    >
    >Isn't it about time you stopped building earthworks primarily of
    >interest to future archaeologists and started concentrating on the real
    >needs of the metropolis?
    >
    >In short, kick some butt at 600 Collins St, tell the faceless
    >bureaucrats at VicRoads that the 1954 CRB Roads Master Plan is
    >finally off the agenda, and wake up to the real world.
    >Sincerely yours,
    >
    >Ray Peace
    >Ferntree Gully Vic 3156
    >
     
  11. Bleve

    Bleve Guest

    Peter Signorini wrote:

    > Good for you. I drive 10kms across the suburbs and it takes me anything from
    > 20 - 30 mins. An average of 20 to 30 kmh really makes the bike a quite
    > viable proposition. Now with the higher petrol prices that's just what I'll
    > be doing. Crossing Whitehorse Rd and the rail line with freeway-bound
    > traffic sucks.



    My commute is from Vermont to Southbank, 50-55mins on the
    pushbike, 45 mins on the motorbike. I'd hate to think
    how long it would take in a car!
     
  12. Marx SS

    Marx SS New Member

    Joined:
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    0
    That letter would go great guns in Royalauto. Right size, hits where it hurts, makes the elderly (who read Royalauto cover to cover) teary-eyed of the old Horse-drawn days [ things were better in the ole days....] .
     
  13. Daniel Bowen

    Daniel Bowen Guest

    "Prometheus" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > With regard to trams the only options are to reduce the number of stops
    > and reduce the impact vehicular traffic has on trams by segregation.
    > Perhaps lowering the tram lines by 350mm below the road surface and
    > placing physical barriers so that cars/trucks cannot infringe on trams.


    Segregation would help, but one only has to look at the enormous amounts of
    time trams spend sitting at red lights doing nothing to know that traffic
    light priority would bring huge benefits.


    Daniel
     
  14. Yes, a piece appeared in one of the Sydney papers recently, saying that
    Sydney's elec. train service was the slowest in Australia. The comparison
    cities were Brizzy and Perth (both with n.g. systems). No mention of Melb.,
    I suspect that to have done so would have undermined the case as presented.
    Regards,
    Bill.



    "Fish Womper" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 09:21:05 +1000, Ray Peace
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >Good Morning People,
    > > Some years back, your Government came out with a long term plan
    > >entitled `Melbourne 2030', which envisaged, amongst other things, 20 per
    > >cent of the city's population using public transport.
    > >
    > >In the light of what is happening at present, this would appear to be a
    > >joke of the most dubious kind. I draw your attention to the following
    > >facts:
    > >
    > >Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 1885:
    > >Steam suburban train: 30 k/mh
    > >Cable tram: 18 k/mh
    > >Horse-drawn omnibus: 10 k/mh
    > >
    > >Average Speed of Melbourne public transport, 2005:
    > >Electric suburban train: 37 k/mh
    > >Electric tram: 18 k/mh
    > >Diesel motor bus 9 k/mh

    >
    >
    > Population 1885? Under 1 million I would suggest. In those days
    > everyone worked fairly close to home because transport wasn't really
    > that flash.
    >
    > Population 2005? 3.something million. Many of them work a LONG way
    > from home due to our great friend, the motor car.
    >
    > Therein lies your answer.
    >
    > They have been comparing apples with oranges in Sydney recently as
    > well.
    >
    >
    > fish
    > >
    > >As you can clearly see, the improvements in the past 120 years have been
    > >at best marginal, and in the case of buses, have actually gone slightly
    > >backwards. It's little wonder that in 2003, of public transport in 100
    > >cities in the developed world, Melbourne won the booby prize for having
    > >the SLOWEST.
    > >
    > >When your fastest available form of transport can be easily outrun by a
    > >racing bicycle, do you wonder that commuters resolutely stay with their
    > >cars no matter what the petrol price?
    > >
    > >When your fixed rail system has had negligible alterations to its
    > >network in the past 50 years, do you wonder that the system is
    > >struggling to cope with the demands of the 21st century?
    > >
    > >Horse drawn buses, cable trams and steam suburban trains have long since
    > >vanished, but your system has shown negligible improvements over their
    > >performance. In short, where have you been?
    > >
    > >Isn't it about time you stopped building earthworks primarily of
    > >interest to future archaeologists and started concentrating on the real
    > >needs of the metropolis?
    > >
    > >In short, kick some butt at 600 Collins St, tell the faceless
    > >bureaucrats at VicRoads that the 1954 CRB Roads Master Plan is
    > >finally off the agenda, and wake up to the real world.
    > >Sincerely yours,
    > >
    > >Ray Peace
    > >Ferntree Gully Vic 3156
    > >

    >
     
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