opinion piece on Tyler Hamilton

  • Thread starter John Forrest Tomlinson
  • Start date



"Pudd'nhead Wilson" wrote:

> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
> Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin,
> 1759

I bet that Franklin never said this. It doesn't sound like Franklin's
style and it doesn't have the style of an 18th century writer. (It
also doesn't sound like what most of the Founders said about
democracy, even the aristocrats and Federalists - they weren't
against voting, they just wanted to limit who could vote.)

Searching the internets there are a lot of instances of this quotation
but no real attributions, or citations to what work of Franklin's this
is in, and this page:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=389308

which points out that it's not in the 1919 Bartlett's:

http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.html

Read a few of the actual Franklin quotations and you can
hear why I think it doesn't sound like him.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Pudd'nhead Wilson" wrote:
>
> > "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
> > Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin,
> > 1759
>
> I bet that Franklin never said this. It doesn't sound like Franklin's
> style and it doesn't have the style of an 18th century writer. (It
> also doesn't sound like what most of the Founders said about
> democracy, even the aristocrats and Federalists - they weren't
> against voting, they just wanted to limit who could vote.)
>
> Searching the internets there are a lot of instances of this quotation
> but no real attributions, or citations to what work of Franklin's this
> is in, and this page:
>
> http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=389308

From that page comes:

http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/definitations_20001130.html

A Democracy: Three wolves and a sheep voting on dinner.

A Republic: The flock gets to vote for which wolves vote on dinner.

A Constitutional Republic: Voting on dinner is expressly forbidden,
and the sheep are armed.

Federal Government: The means by which the sheep will be fooled into
voting for a Democracy.

Freedom: Two very hungry wolves looking for dinner and finding a very
well-informed and well-armed sheep.

___________________

Which reminds us of:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/2d1af09746189199

--
tanx,
Howard

Grandma Smith said a curious thing
Boys must whistle, girls must sing

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> "Pudd'nhead Wilson" wrote:
>
>> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
>> Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin,
>> 1759
>
> I bet that Franklin never said this. It doesn't sound like Franklin's
> style and it doesn't have the style of an 18th century writer. (It
> also doesn't sound like what most of the Founders said about
> democracy, even the aristocrats and Federalists - they weren't
> against voting, they just wanted to limit who could vote.)
>
> Searching the internets there are a lot of instances of this quotation
> but no real attributions, or citations to what work of Franklin's this
> is in, and this page:
>
> http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=389308
>
> which points out that it's not in the 1919 Bartlett's:
>
> http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.html
>
> Read a few of the actual Franklin quotations and you can
> hear why I think it doesn't sound like him.
>

Aside from the fact that in 1759 nobody was really thinking all that much
about democracy or liberty. England was getting its ass pounded in the
Seven Years War, George II was still alive, and the colonies in America
were not even remotely interested in separating from England. They
didn't even talk about revolution immediately after the war in 1765 when
the Stamp Act was passed (which, interestingly, Franklin kinda
supported).

I just finished reading "Crucible of War" and didn't think I would ever
get to use all that information I got from slogging through those 700+
pages.

--
Bill Asher
 
William Asher wrote:
> "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:[email protected]:
>
> > "Pudd'nhead Wilson" wrote:
> >
> >> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
> >> Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." Benjamin Franklin,
> >> 1759
> >
> > I bet that Franklin never said this. It doesn't sound like Franklin's
> > style and it doesn't have the style of an 18th century writer. (It
> > also doesn't sound like what most of the Founders said about
> > democracy, even the aristocrats and Federalists - they weren't
> > against voting, they just wanted to limit who could vote.)
> >
> > Searching the internets there are a lot of instances of this quotation
> > but no real attributions, or citations to what work of Franklin's this
> > is in, and this page:
> >
> > http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=389308
> >
> > which points out that it's not in the 1919 Bartlett's:
> >
> > http://www.bartleby.com/100/245.html
> >
> > Read a few of the actual Franklin quotations and you can
> > hear why I think it doesn't sound like him.
> >
>
> Aside from the fact that in 1759 nobody was really thinking all that much
> about democracy or liberty. England was getting its ass pounded in the
> Seven Years War, George II was still alive, and the colonies in America
> were not even remotely interested in separating from England. They
> didn't even talk about revolution immediately after the war in 1765 when
> the Stamp Act was passed (which, interestingly, Franklin kinda
> supported).
>
> I just finished reading "Crucible of War" and didn't think I would ever
> get to use all that information I got from slogging through those 700+
> pages.
>
> --
> Bill Asher

Hell, you should know that anything and everything eventually comes
into use in discussions around here. That's one of the things that
makes it interesting. At least this time no one is foaming at the mouth
about the issue.
The other thing, to keep it sort of on topic, is going to be what
happens with the testing system and how it works when an activist
American civil court takes a hard look at it and starts weighing the
international monopoly, athlete's rights, and lack of a collectively
bargained agreement.
Bill C
 
On 30 Mar 2006 07:08:10 GMT, William Asher <[email protected]> wrote:

>Aside from the fact that in 1759 nobody was really thinking all that much
>about democracy or liberty. England was getting its ass pounded in the
>Seven Years War, George II was still alive, and the colonies in America
>were not even remotely interested in separating from England. They
>didn't even talk about revolution immediately after the war in 1765 when
>the Stamp Act was passed (which, interestingly, Franklin kinda
>supported).

Even if lunch were a word used in those times, I doubt that people
'chose' lunch like they would have done later. Even the large towns in
the U.S. were about the size of a suburban town now, and there wasn't
Chinese on the corner and Thai down the block. People would more
likely have chosen what tavern to have gone for lunch, then drank and
eaten and drank what that tavern was serving..

The earliest it would feel right to me would be in the newspaper era
after the Civil War in the U.S.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
>I bet that Franklin never said this. ...

Goofy--

It doesn't really matter much who said it. It would still be true even
if you said it.

"We enter parliament in order to supply ourselves, in the arsenal of
democracy, with its own weapons... If democracy is so stupid as to give
us free tickets and salaries for this bear's work, that is its
affair... We do not come as friends, nor even as neutrals. We come as
enemies. As the wolf bursts into the flock, so we come."

--Joseph Goebbels (1897-1945), German Nazi leader, minister of
propaganda. Der Angriff (Berlin, 30 April 1928).

You just need to get the right wolf elected. Ignore human nature.
Force the world to fit your ideals, rather than understand and bend to
it. You are a god whose only problem is sub-standard government
skoolin. Heck, a few more studies and standardized tests and all will
be well. Never another Bush, by design, of course!


"Death and honor are thought to be the same, but today I have learned
that sometimes they are not." --Colonel Munro

Typical Munro.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104691/quotes


"[A]t the very begining, in deciding which questions are worth asking,
individual value judgments are bound to come in."--Hayek, /Capitalism
and the Historians/, p.5

I looked it up because I now know how much more important the author is
than the idea.
 
Grasshopper--

Don't slog. There are too many good pages to slog thru bad. Life is
short, or so I have been informed. Reading should be a joy, especially
outside formal institutions of learning.

you are welcome,
Pudd the Pud
Institutionally trained

Critic: "You're book on operational calculus was horribly difficult to
read."
Oliver Heaviside: "Well I reckon it was easier to read than to write."

"The greatest danger of institutionalized learning is that students
will learn exactly what they are taught." -- i do not remember; it is
for big dog to look up -- he is good at that
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Pudd'nhead Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Grasshopper--
>
> Don't slog. There are too many good pages to slog thru bad. Life is
> short, or so I have been informed. Reading should be a joy, especially
> outside formal institutions of learning.
>
> you are welcome,
> Pudd the Pud
> Institutionally trained
>
> Critic: "You're book on operational calculus was horribly difficult to
> read."
> Oliver Heaviside: "Well I reckon it was easier to read than to write."
>
> "The greatest danger of institutionalized learning is that students
> will learn exactly what they are taught." -- i do not remember; it is
> for big dog to look up -- he is good at that

Everywhere I go, I'm asked if the universities stifle
writers. My opinion is that they do not stifle enough of
them.
-- Flannery O'Connor

--
Michael Press
 
Pudd'nhead Wilson wrote:
> >I bet that Franklin never said this. ...
>
> Goofy--
>
> It doesn't really matter much who said it. It would still be true even
> if you said it.

Pud-Pud,

Who said that wolfie-lambie saying doesn't matter much
for determining its credibility or worth, or lack thereof.
(I am amused that the quote is all over the Internets -
_someone_ must think Franklin adds credibility to
their pet causes.)

It matters for protecting Ben Franklin's credibility by
not attributing stupid **** to him, among other things.

It also matters for evaluating your credibility. A brief
admission it was wrong would have helped with that.
I can hardly hold it against you that you got your degree
from the Doris Kearns Goodwin School of History and,
Public Policy, though.

-Ben
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.

> "We enter parliament in order to supply ourselves, in the arsenal of
> democracy, with its own weapons... If democracy is so stupid as to give
> us free tickets and salaries for this bear's work, that is its
> affair... We do not come as friends, nor even as neutrals. We come as
> enemies. As the wolf bursts into the flock, so we come."
>
> --Joseph Goebbels (1897-1945), German Nazi leader, minister of
> propaganda. Der Angriff (Berlin, 30 April 1928).
>
> You just need to get the right wolf elected. Ignore human nature.
> Force the world to fit your ideals, rather than understand and bend to
> it. You are a god whose only problem is sub-standard government
> skoolin. Heck, a few more studies and standardized tests and all will
> be well. Never another Bush, by design, of course!
>
>
> "Death and honor are thought to be the same, but today I have learned
> that sometimes they are not." --Colonel Munro
>
> Typical Munro.
>
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104691/quotes
>
>
> "[A]t the very begining, in deciding which questions are worth asking,
> individual value judgments are bound to come in."--Hayek, /Capitalism
> and the Historians/, p.5
>
> I looked it up because I now know how much more important the author is
> than the idea.
 
Pudd'nhead Wilson wrote:
> "Death and honor are thought to be the same, but today I have learned
> that sometimes they are not." --Colonel Munro
>
> Typical Munro.

Hey call me sir unless you want to spend the next few years in the rbr
health resort in Cuba. I am considering appointing Kunich as the resort
commandant.

Colonel Munro
rbr minister of war
rbr minister of personality and ego issues
 
Donald Munro <[email protected]> writes:

> Pudd'nhead Wilson wrote:
> > "Death and honor are thought to be the same, but today I have learned
> > that sometimes they are not." --Colonel Munro
> >
> > Typical Munro.
>
> Hey call me sir unless you want to spend the next few years in the rbr
> health resort in Cuba. I am considering appointing Kunich as the resort
> commandant.
>
> Colonel Munro
> rbr minister of war
> rbr minister of personality and ego issues
>
So do we address you as Standartenfuhrer now? [SS Colonel]

Or merely Oberst? [Wermacht Colonel]

--
Le Vent a Dos, Davey Crockett - Actively Opposing Thought Crime
Dresden: Never Again
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/public.pages/sig/dresden.ram
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Pudd'nhead Wilson wrote:
> > >I bet that Franklin never said this. ...
> >
> > Goofy--
> >
> > It doesn't really matter much who said it. It would still be true even
> > if you said it.
>
> Pud-Pud,
>
> Who said that wolfie-lambie saying doesn't matter much
> for determining its credibility or worth, or lack thereof.
> (I am amused that the quote is all over the Internets -
> _someone_ must think Franklin adds credibility to
> their pet causes.)
>
> It matters for protecting Ben Franklin's credibility by
> not attributing stupid **** to him, among other things.
>
> It also matters for evaluating your credibility. A brief
> admission it was wrong would have helped with that.
> I can hardly hold it against you that you got your degree
> from the Doris Kearns Goodwin School of History and,
> Public Policy, though.

The Friedmans *have* to be involved in this, somehow, some way.

--
tanx,
Howard

Grandma Smith said a curious thing
Boys must whistle, girls must sing

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
Hey Ben
Didn't you know that Franklin invented 99% of all good quotes and the
other 1% don't matter?
I think that was either the wisdom of Dave Barry or Pat McManus but
can't remember which, and in the spirit of the discussion won't bother
to verify which. ;-)

[email protected] wrote:
> Pudd'nhead Wilson wrote:
> > >I bet that Franklin never said this. ...
> >
> > Goofy--
> >
> > It doesn't really matter much who said it. It would still be true even
> > if you said it.
>
> Pud-Pud,
>
> Who said that wolfie-lambie saying doesn't matter much
> for determining its credibility or worth, or lack thereof.
> (I am amused that the quote is all over the Internets -
> _someone_ must think Franklin adds credibility to
> their pet causes.)
>
> It matters for protecting Ben Franklin's credibility by
> not attributing stupid **** to him, among other things.
>
> It also matters for evaluating your credibility. A brief
> admission it was wrong would have helped with that.
> I can hardly hold it against you that you got your degree
> from the Doris Kearns Goodwin School of History and,
> Public Policy, though.
>
> -Ben
 
heyzeus eightch crisco!
1. you are being a nitpicky loser
2. it still doesn't matter who said it
3. i don't really care who said it
4. it raises a question you can't handle, which is...
5. democracy does need to be defended
6. it can't be coherently and consistantly defended
7. you are ill-prepared to defend it
8. so you divert to nitpicky diversion
9. you look to be brainwashed: assuming in the legitimacy of democracy
10. franklin's reputation doesn't need protecting, especially if he
*did* say it
11. i'd bet if he did say it, it wasn't in 1759, but not for the
reasons you or bill asher gave. (franklin was in london in 1759
arguing for *democratic* assembly influence against the authority of
the proprietor (penn). 1789 would be a more likely neighborhood, if
true.)
12. if i am wrong about something important -- democracy in this case
-- then that is where i think it worthwhile to admit i was wrong. not
some nitpicky sniveling about the origins of a googled quote. you're
like a girlfriend.
13. i think i am right to stir things up with you clone-drone-heads. if
you knew the foundations, you would answer to the issue instead of
diversionary nitpicking. but yet you disparage other's education and
credibility. Now that is in-credible.
14. i do not expect you to answer why you believe democracy is the
political end game. in any case, with all your other contraints lifted,
i know you could not do it. i'll bet you scarcely know why you believe
what you believe, much less have reasoned it thru. try actually
working the problem -- it is a good way to really learn.
15. since you simply accept (without challenging) the tradition of
democracy, you are by definition a conservative in this way.


Adios again mo-fo's
good luck
 
Pudd'nhead Wilson nailed his 15 theses to the RBR clubhouse door:

> heyzeus eightch crisco!
> 1. you are being a nitpicky loser
> 2. it still doesn't matter who said it
> 3. i don't really care who said it
> 4. it raises a question you can't handle, which is...
> 5. democracy does need to be defended
> 6. it can't be coherently and consistantly defended
> 7. you are ill-prepared to defend it
> 8. so you divert to nitpicky diversion
> 9. you look to be brainwashed: assuming in the legitimacy of democracy
> 10. franklin's reputation doesn't need protecting, especially if he
> *did* say it
> 11. i'd bet if he did say it, it wasn't in 1759, but not for the
> reasons you or bill asher gave. (franklin was in london in 1759
> arguing for *democratic* assembly influence against the authority of
> the proprietor (penn). 1789 would be a more likely neighborhood, if
> true.)
> 12. if i am wrong about something important -- democracy in this case
> -- then that is where i think it worthwhile to admit i was wrong. not
> some nitpicky sniveling about the origins of a googled quote. you're
> like a girlfriend.

Hey that's the best thing anyone's said about
me all week.

> 13. i think i am right to stir things up with you clone-drone-heads. if
> you knew the foundations, you would answer to the issue instead of
> diversionary nitpicking. but yet you disparage other's education and
> credibility. Now that is in-credible.
> 14. i do not expect you to answer why you believe democracy is the
> political end game. in any case, with all your other contraints lifted,
> i know you could not do it. i'll bet you scarcely know why you believe
> what you believe, much less have reasoned it thru. try actually
> working the problem -- it is a good way to really learn.
> 15. since you simply accept (without challenging) the tradition of
> democracy, you are by definition a conservative in this way.
>
> Adios again mo-fo's
> good luck

Wolfpack U-1789,

If it suits you, and your favorite political thinkers, to
define the idea of "democracy" so that it's something
so perfect and idealized that it could never work in
the real world, that's okay. It betrays an unwillingness
to engage with the world as it is, rather than the world
as you would wish it to be, but that's fine. That refusal
to compromise is the mark of a visionary. Of course,
it's also the mark of a crackpot. Sometimes, you can't
tell which is which - sometimes they're the same person.

But crying because other people won't step up to
defend your true and only strawman isn't revolutionary.
It's refusing to take responsibility for yourself until
other people give you what you want, even if all you
want is an argument.

Ben
Not above crying to get people to give me what I want
 
[email protected] wrote:

> Pudd'nhead Wilson nailed his 15 theses to the RBR clubhouse door:
>
>
>>1. you are being a nitpicky loser
>>2. it still doesn't matter who said it
>>3. i don't really care who said it

> That refusal
> to compromise is the mark of a visionary. Of course,
> it's also the mark of a crackpot. Sometimes, you can't
> tell which is which - sometimes they're the same person.

i can picture pudd'nhead as a visionary and/or crackpot, but i never
ever expected him to forsake capitalization.

bad joke heather
 
bjw> "If it suits you, and your favorite political thinkers, to define
the idea of "democracy" so that it's something so perfect and idealized
that it could never work in the real world, that's okay."

You misapprehend and inject so much of your own idea(s) of what you
think I think, there is little possibility of not talking past one
another.

I gave no "idealistic" definition of democracy. Madison et al rejected
pure democracy long ago, if that is what *you* define as "perfect and
idealized." I have no idea what a "perfect and idealized" democracy
is, since I never brought up any such uniform descriptions or
definitions. To make it more clear, I'll go ahead and reject all of
them -- the "perfect" and imperfect, "idealized" and non-idealized.

The reasons I don't like (or at least I think I don't) democracies are
based on real-world issues; and worse it is beside the point since I am
not the one making the assumption that a given form of government is
justified (you are the one asserting, so the burden should fall on
you). Ask a random voter walking down the street who their
representatives are. Ask them to name and describe 5 bills the reps
voted on, and how they voted and why. Ask them what statutes passed in
the past 5 years they support and don't support. Describe the
proportion of voters actually participating, and how many of them
"liked" the person they voted for. Ask them what part of the monstrous
80k-page tax code they voted for. Ask them what part of the helmet law
they voted for.

These are just tiny questions. There are far deeper reasons that you
can discover if you simply allow the challenge to begin. And yes, I
have theoretical reasons too for my distrust of democracy. From that,
I am not even convinced the correct question can simply be an asking of
"can it work," whatever that may mean.

bjw> "That refusal to compromise is the mark of a visionary. Of
course, it's also the mark of a crackpot. Sometimes, you can't tell
which is which - sometimes they're the same person."

<Laughs> I am more afraid of dying of boredom, and even that I can
bear. The fact is I see nothing keen in many of the political comments
I hear (coming from all manner of directions). I think far less that I
am "so right" and so cannot budge, than you are wildly distant of a
coherent political philosophy.

bjw> "But crying because other people won't step up to defend your true
and only strawman isn't revolutionary."

Your problem isn't my problem -- I have no illusions that you and most
will continue upon your present lines-of-thought, if it can be called
"thought." The most I can do is shake the tree and see if some fruit
drops and maybe even learn something. I already know most trees are
barren, so my expectations are always low. It is natural to shake
trees, and so I do. You and Press have demonstrated here that you
don't have the slightest idea what a strawman is. It is as if you can
say the word and it appears as well as clicking your heels gets you to
Kansas.

bjw> "It's refusing to take responsibility for yourself until
other people give you what you want,..."

I think I've been pretty clear that I want people to stop giving me
what they believe I want. In fact please grant me the first zen
non-want: no monopoly coercive government. Yes!, give me less than you
give me now. <Laughs> Less is more.

bjw> "...even if all you want is an argument."

What I wanted is not an argument, and this I cannot call an argument,
for the terms have only begun to be described; and I really don't have
the time these days. Seriously, the most I could have asked for from
anyone is to simply challenge -- within their own minds, and not an
external argument -- a few of their basic beliefs. If the beliefs are
based on sound and real foundations, there is nothing to fear.

"The wise man builds his house upon a rock." -- bible nursury song
based on Matthew 7:24
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Pudd'nhead Wilson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Your problem isn't my problem -- I have no illusions that you and most
> will continue upon your present lines-of-thought, if it can be called
> "thought." The most I can do is shake the tree and see if some fruit
> drops and maybe even learn something. I already know most trees are
> barren, so my expectations are always low. It is natural to shake
> trees, and so I do. You and Press have demonstrated here that you
> don't have the slightest idea what a strawman is. It is as if you can
> say the word and it appears as well as clicking your heels gets you to
> Kansas.

From
<http://www.donotvote.net/pb/wp_7ab581c3/wp_7ab581c3.html>
in the hierarchy that you promote:

> Myths about Democracy
> 1. "In a democracy, the government IS the people"
> 2. Democracies do not fight each other.
> 3. Democracy and dictatorships are opposite.
> 4. Democracy is individualistic.
> 5. The Internet proves that democracy works.
> 6. Democracy is the best way to determine what to do.

These are strawman arguments.

--
Michael Press
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

> > 5. The Internet proves that democracy works.

The Internets prove that there are a lot of loonies with keyboards and too
much time on their hands.

--
tanx,
Howard

Grandma Smith said a curious thing
Boys must whistle, girls must sing

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
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