Opinions on folding bikes please

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Victor Meldrew, Jan 26, 2003.

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  1. I'd like to buy myself and my good lady a folding bike each so that we can take them on holiday
    easily. The main priority would be how well they fold, ie. how much room they would take up in the
    back of the car. After that I'm looking for value for money so I guess I'm not looking for the best
    bike per se. Ideally we'd like something that could go off- road (but nothing too demanding). Any
    recommendations? I'd be grateful for some idea of price and availability. Thanks.
    --
    Paul Flackett

    Remove _bra to reply by e-mail.
     
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  2. You can't be serious!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I have 2 Moulton APBs. have to be split, takes not too long but say 3 minutes to put together each.
    They work fine. The best folding folder is undoubtedly the Brompton. But wheels are a bit smaller.
    For touring best Moulton or Bike Friday, but Bike Fridays are mostly not suspended and are
    Expensivo. The German Birdys which have suspension and are light are said to be excellent.
     
  3. Ric

    Ric Guest

    "Victor Meldrew" <[email protected]_bra.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I'd like to buy myself and my good lady a folding bike each so that we can take them on holiday
    > easily. The main priority would be how well they fold, ie. how much room they would take up in the
    > back of the car. After that I'm looking for value for money so I guess I'm not looking for the
    > best bike per se. Ideally we'd like something that could go off- road (but nothing too demanding).
    > Any recommendations? I'd be grateful for some idea of price and availability. Thanks.

    Realistically, you will not get a folder that is any way capable offroad, because of the small
    wheels, so best forget that idea.

    You won't be disappointed with the Brompton. It is the smallest option when folded, is by far the
    easiest to fold and unfold, and is very nice to ride.

    The other options are all bulkier and clumsier to fold and unfold. Most people who have folders
    rapidly realise that these two attributes are the most important features of a folder, which is why
    nobody is ever disappointed with a Brompton.

    You can read more about the options here: http://www.foldsoc.co.uk/
     
  4. Tony Raven

    Tony Raven Guest

    Victor Meldrew <[email protected]_bra.demon.co.uk> wrote:
    > I'd like to buy myself and my good lady a folding bike each so that we can take them on holiday
    > easily. The main priority would be how well they fold, ie. how much room they would take up in the
    > back of the car. After that I'm looking for value for money so I guess I'm not looking for the
    > best bike per se. Ideally we'd like something that could go off- road (but nothing too demanding).
    > Any recommendations? I'd be grateful for some idea of price and availability. Thanks.

    Two places you can look. The foldsoc pages have all sorts of advice and comparisons between the
    different folders - http://www.foldsoc.co.uk. Also Avon Valley Cyclery in Bath have most of the
    models available in the UK and are a good and helpful source of advice. Their website has all the
    prices on. http://www.foldingbikes.co.uk. and its worth a visit where you can try out all the
    different types and play with folding them.

    For the ultimate in folding the Brompton is the standard but they are not that cheap and hold their
    prices so difficult to get cheap second hand. I think you can discount things like Birdy's, Bike
    Fridays, Moultons and Airnimals on price. If price is important then the Dahon bikes are worth
    looking at - not well known over here but they sell more folding bikes worldwide than anyone.

    From what you say I would think a Brompton L3 or L6 sound best but they are about £450 and £525
    respectively.

    Tony

    http://www.raven-family.com

    "The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place" George
    Bernard Shaw.
     
  5. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Victor Meldrew" <[email protected]_bra.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I'd like to buy myself and my good lady a folding bike each so that we can take them on holiday
    > easily. The main priority would be how well they fold, ie. how much room they would take up in the
    > back of the car. After that I'm looking for value for money so I guess I'm not looking for the
    > best bike per se. Ideally we'd like something that could go off- road (but nothing too demanding).
    > Any recommendations? I'd be grateful for some idea of price and availability. Thanks.

    Folders are relatively pricey and not well suited to off road. Brompton, as you will have gathered
    from others - probably the best at folding - specifically state in their brochure " The Brompton is
    for use on roads and well made paths. It is not designed for cross country riding: this can
    overstress the frame and, anyway, the tyres and wheels are unsuitable".

    The first part makes sense -- the frame, or more specifically the hinges of a folder were not
    designed for ruff stuff.

    However, in my teens (a long, long time ago) I rode a Moulton 'everywhere' including most of what
    Epping Forest could throw at it all year round. (Its wheels were the same size as the modern
    Brompton's).

    So -- if you are looking at country lanes, cycle paths (e.g. Sustran's type routes -- e.g. recycled
    railway lines with cinder surfaces) and light weight bridle paths you might invalidate the warrantee
    (if they ever found out) but would be OK.

    Also, what type of holiday? If you are stuffing these in the boot - no problem. If you are taking
    them on aeroplanes no problem in principle but 12 to 15 kg of bike each (and the airline will
    probably want it bagged) sure eats into the baggage allowance.

    A serious alternative must be renting. Most (holiday) places in Europe it is possible to find
    somewhere within striking distance that will rent a decent MTB for 50 to 80 GBP per week (and a host
    of places that will rent a third rate bone-shaker but you ignore those!!).

    Personally I am lusting after a Brompton -- but there are other ways of skinning cats.

    T
     
  6. Paul Rudin

    Paul Rudin Guest

    >>>>> "VM" == Victor Meldrew <[email protected]_bra.demon.co.uk> writes:

    VM> I'd like to buy myself and my good lady a folding bike each so that we can take them on holiday
    VM> easily. The main priority would be how well they fold, ie. how much room they would take up in
    VM> the back of the car. After that I'm looking for value for money so I guess I'm not looking for
    VM> the best bike per se. Ideally we'd like something that could go off- road (but nothing too
    VM> demanding). Any recommendations? I'd be grateful for some idea of price and availability.
    VM> Thanks.

    I have a Birdy Blue, which has front and rear suspension, folds easily, is not quite as compact as a
    Bromton when folded - but fine anyway.

    Obviously a "proper" mountain bike is better for serious off road riding, but th Birdy is fine.

    Birdys cost more than some other folding bikes, so they might fail your "value for money" test (if
    you really mean "cheap" for example), although if you keep your eyes open you might pick up a couple
    second-hand.

    --
    HERE!! Put THIS on!! I'm in CHARGE!!
     
  7. Nigel

    Nigel Guest

    Lots of websites, one of the best for reviews and other linsk I found when looking to buy a
    Brompton(my personal choice, fastest fold, smallest fold size..but not very cheap....what you would
    call good value for money) is http://www.foldsoc.co.uk/

    Victor Meldrew <[email protected]_bra.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > I'd like to buy myself and my good lady a folding bike each so that we can take them on holiday
    > easily. The main priority would be how well they fold, ie. how much room they would take up in the
    > back of the car. After that I'm looking for value for money so I guess I'm not looking for the
    > best bike per se. Ideally we'd like something that could go off- road (but nothing too demanding).
    > Any recommendations? I'd be grateful for some idea of price and availability. Thanks.
     
  8. David Hansen

    David Hansen Guest

    On Mon, 20 Jan 2003 23:58:52 +0000 someone who may be Victor Meldrew <[email protected]_bra.demon.co.uk>
    wrote this:-

    >The main priority would be how well they fold, ie. how much room they would take up in the back
    >of the car.

    Making a bike that folds well costs money. It is cheaper to make one that doesn't fold well.

    The one that folds best is the Brompton, which is in the middle of the price band and is the best
    value for money for many people. Other people have different priorities and there are a variety of
    other folding bikes, but none of them will fit as well in the back of your car.

    --
    David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E I will always explain revoked
    keys, unless the UK government prevents me using the RIP Act 2000.
     
  9. Victor Meldrew <[email protected]_bra.demon.co.uk> wrote
    > I'd like to buy myself and my good lady a folding bike each so that we can take them on holiday
    > easily. The main priority would be how well they fold, ie. how much room they would take up in the
    > back of the car. After that I'm looking for value for money so I guess I'm not looking for the
    > best bike per se. Ideally we'd like something that could go off- road (but nothing too demanding).
    > Any recommendations? I'd be grateful for some idea of price and availability. Thanks.

    We have the following:

    Brompton with 3 speeds Moulton Land-Rover with 21 speeds Airnimal with 16 speeds

    While the Brompton is by far the easiest and fastest to fold, and makes the smallest package when
    folded, it is also the most work to ride. I really don't think that three speeds are enough. Oddly,
    I'd rather take my fixed gear bike for longer rides than the Brompton. At least my fixed gear is a
    proper bike, and I can stand up and apply lots of force to the pedals to get up steep hills, while
    standing on the Brompton is really not an option -- it leaves you in too upright a position and
    isn't rigid enough. So I would recommend it only for short trips. These will set you back 420 quid
    or so new; we got ours used for 240 and it was a good deal.

    The Moulton is pretty efficient. It doesn't really fold; it comes apart, but this still allows it to
    fit in a car well. The suspension is a bit too soft to be able to stand up effectively, but with
    that many gears you don't need to! It has the coolest gear system - three speed hub gears with 7
    sprockets on the outside (the newer ones -- called Dual Drive Moultons -- have 8 sprockets). This
    allows you to use any combination of sprocket with any of the hub gears. Also you can shift it when
    stopped, like when you're pulling up to a traffic light that changed quickly enough that you didn't
    have time to stift down while still moving. It's comfy for long distance riding and the gears mean
    you can go up almost anything wihtout kiling yourself. I did the Isle of Wight Randonee on it -- 60
    or so miles, lots of hills, some very steep. This will set you back 900 quid or so new, but we got
    ours used for 350 quid -- again a great deal. If you get Moultons with less gears, you can get them
    as cheap as 600 quid for the 8-speed version, which is enough gears with enough spread unless you're
    going into a hilly area.

    The Airnimal is the lightest and quickest of them. Mine is set up with straight bars, carbon fiber
    forks, and mudguards for fast(ish) but still comfy riding (I don't get along with drop bars at
    all). I have
    39/50 chainrings and a MTB cassette on it, giving it a range of gears very similar to a mountain
    bike (lowest gear is a bit higher, but highest gear is about the same). It folds (once you take
    out the front wheel), but doesn't make a very neat package, so is best put in a car rather than
    carried on the tube, say. The basic model will set you back about 1300 quid. I actually got this
    one new! I only got it up and running in September, so the most use it's had was a weekend in the
    Cotswolds, where it worked well, although the steepest hills were a bit of struggle. It didn't
    help that I was 4 months pregnant at the time!

    So there are some options.

    For offroad, The Moulton and Airnimal can be fitted with knobbly tires, so would do all right for
    not-very-extreme tracks. The Moulton would be better because of it has both front and rear
    suspension. I don't think the Brompton would work well except for really gentle paths.

    A Birdy might suit your needs perfectly, but we haven't tried one.

    -Myra
     
  10. John B wrote:
    > I have tried the Birdy but find it too much like a pogo stick on road, and the Airnimal likewise,
    > and is just too cumbersome and time consuming to fold up.

    How much the Airnimal resembles a pogo stick when you ride it is down to your pedalling style and
    the density of the elastomer. I have a fairly smooth pedalling style and the medium elastomer. I
    really can't feel it move as I pedal, but Simon says that it is moving up and down a bit as I ride.
    I do note that it helps to smooth out the ride, so it's clear that it is doing something.

    Agreed that the Airnimal is not the best at folding! But the first stage (take out seat post & front
    wheel, fold back wheel into where front wheel used to be) is good enough to get it into a small car,
    and that's all I wanted.

    -Myra
     
  11. Pattledom

    Pattledom Guest

    Victor Meldrew wrote:
    > I'd like to buy myself and my good lady a folding bike each so that we can take them on holiday
    > easily. The main priority would be how well they fold, ie. how much room they would take up in the
    > back of the car. After that I'm looking for value for money so I guess I'm not looking for the
    > best bike per se. Ideally we'd like something that could go off- road (but nothing too demanding).
    > Any recommendations? I'd be grateful for some idea of price and availability. Thanks.

    I think the smallest folder is what is now called the Brilliant Micro. It is marginally smaller and
    lighter than the equivalent Brompton, but only marginally. It is cheaper though.

    I have it's predecessor - a Cresswell Micro - it's as near as identical to the Brilliant version as
    makes no difference.

    As to its off-road abilities - well, they're not great [1] but it can be ridden on bridleways and
    such. If the going gets at all muddy, the handling gets a bit wobbly. Mine's not at all good at
    steep bits either - but then mine has only got two gears.

    Cresswell used to do a bike called the Fold-It, which was a sort of bigger version of the Micro
    with 20" wheels. Imagine something the size and shape of a Raleigh shopper bike but with a proper
    compact folding mechanism. Something like that would seem to be a suitable compromise between size,
    off-road ability and price. Unfortunately, I don't know if this one is still available under the
    Brilliant banner.

    [1] Early Cresswells like mine should definitely not go off-road unless the handlebars have been
    modified - there's a design fault and the whole lot can snap off just above the hinge. I found
    out the hard way - mine has the later bars now!

    --
    Andrew Pattle
     
  12. Peter Clinch

    Peter Clinch Guest

    Ric wrote:

    > Realistically, you will not get a folder that is any way capable offroad, because of the small
    > wheels, so best forget that idea.

    Oh. Best tell all the people with Moulton/Land Rover APBs that use them offroad that point, they
    don't seem to have noticed! Suitable suspension makes up for a lot of the advantages of larger
    wheels, and in a similar vein a Birdy makes a quite happy offroader.

    > You won't be disappointed with the Brompton. It is the smallest option when folded, is by far the
    > easiest to fold and unfold, and is very nice to ride.

    Yup. And it'll do forest trails and disused railway lines quite happily too (I noticed a Sustrams
    book with a pic of one riding offroad along a forest trail, "offroad" just means no tarmac, not rock
    strewn swamps)

    > The other options are all bulkier and clumsier to fold and unfold. Most people who have folders
    > rapidly realise that these two attributes are the most important features of a folder, which is
    > why nobody is ever disappointed with a Brompton.

    Something like a Moulton or Bike Friday doesn't fold, it's assembled and reassembled. But once
    you've done a few minutes work it'll fit into places smaller than a Brompton (you can actually get a
    Moulton in the back of a Mini, which you can't with a Brompton). So if you want something to
    transport to a destination and subsequently use as a bike that doesn't need to fold for the rest of
    the day/week/month it may well be a better option. If you want something that folds and unfolds in
    seconds to a reasonably compact single package, nothing beats the Brompton.

    None of these options are cheap though! However, a good bike will get ridden because it's a pleasure
    and a useful one at that. My neighbour was so impressed with my Brompton he bought one last Easter
    though he didn't have a bike before then. He thinks it's already paid for itself financially, and
    made life considerably easier, and was the best thing he bought last year.

    Pete.
    --
    Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
    Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email protected]
    http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
     
  13. Ric <[email protected]> wrote:
    >"Victor Meldrew" <[email protected]_bra.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
    >>for the best bike per se. Ideally we'd like something that could go off- road (but nothing too
    >>demanding). Any recommendations? I'd be grateful for some idea of price and availability. Thanks.
    >Realistically, you will not get a folder that is any way capable offroad, because of the small
    >wheels, so best forget that idea.

    I don't think the OP's "nothing too demanding" implies the sort of thing you are thinking off; this
    is literally "off road", not necessarily up cliffs and the other things crazy people like to do.
    --
    David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
     
  14. Ric

    Ric Guest

    "Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Ric wrote:
    >
    > > Realistically, you will not get a folder that is any way capable
    offroad,
    > > because of the small wheels, so best forget that idea.
    >
    > Oh. Best tell all the people with Moulton/Land Rover APBs that use them offroad that point, they
    > don't seem to have noticed! Suitable suspension makes up for a lot of the advantages of larger
    > wheels, and in a similar vein a Birdy makes a quite happy offroader.

    No way is any small wheeled folding bike a capable offroader. They'll cope with gravel dry tracks,
    at slow speed but that's it. But any bike, even a Brompton, can cope with that sort of stuff in
    small doses. I have a folding mountain bike with 26" wheels, and that is a reasonably capable
    offroad bike that can cope with deep mud, deep sand etc, and can be ridden at enjoyable speeds
    offroad, but it is still heavier than a non-folder. Before I bought it, I tried a Bike Friday (20"
    wheels) which was supposed to be offroad capable, and had knobbly tyres and suspension and it was
    atrocious, scarcely any better than the Brompton. It was wildly unstable at speeds much above a fast
    walk, and even hitting a small stone with the front wheel would cause loss of control. Perhaps these
    owners of Moulton's you are talking about consider that acceptable performance as a compromise for a
    bike that can be dismantled, but I would find it too frustrating and would get off an walk in those
    circumstances.

    Suspension does not make up for the small wheels when you start hitting bumps. Do you actually
    ride off road?
     
  15. David Hansen <[email protected]> wrote
    > >(we still have the original Raleigh ones). Perhaps with better tires it would be less work, but I
    > >find it hard to believe it could be all down to the tires.
    >
    > The various options are probably discussed on the A to B magazine web pages. A new pair of tyres
    > might be a better investment than all sorts of baby equipment:)

    Hmmmmm. I don't think the Brompton has much of a part to play in transporting babies! On the other
    hand a slick-shod MTB with a child trailer and special baby seat does, so (a) I have commuterized a
    cheap but decent quality MTB, and (b) we will shortly order a kiddy trailer & seat.

    -Myra
     
  16. Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
    >My old tourer has the rear rack, bars, brake and gear mechs (but not the brake levers), and the
    >bottle cage from the original purchase. Does anyone here have a bike which is 100% changed from
    >their original purchase?

    I'm getting there; I have my original frame less the downtube; seatpost, cranks, brake and gear
    levers (and the gear levers don't live where they originally did.)
    --
    David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
     
  17. Murk

    Murk Guest

    Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Paul Rudin wrote:
    > > Although there's not much left of the original on this bike. Frame and mechs are original
    > > I guess
    >
    > My old tourer has the rear rack, bars, brake and gear mechs (but not the brake levers), and the
    > bottle cage from the original purchase. Does anyone here have a bike which is 100% changed from
    > their original purchase?
    >
    > Pete.

    Yes, if I'm correct in understanding you. I assume you mean that it is possible to trace an
    evolutionary path of component changes/upgrades from the original to the present?

    My original MBK Super Mistral vintage 1987, my first proper bike (ie one with derailleurs and alloy
    wheel rims) and the best a poor student could afford, was upgraded once I started earning a living
    to Shimano 105 gears, chainset and brakes, thanks to some bargain offers. A disastrous tour of the
    Hebrides a couple of years later, involving daily spoke breakages (and lost car keys - don't ask)
    prompted a new pair of Campag/Mavic wheels. Then a couple of years after that, with the assistance
    of a cager, the frame (and wheels) were destroyed. But I salvaged the hubs for new wheels and the
    components to adorn a new Raleigh 531c frame. The saddle was trashed as well and the seat post
    didn't fit the new frame, but the stem and handlebars were still original, until some years later I
    treated myself to an Italian racing bike. I felt the bars were too narrow and the stem not long
    enough on the new racer so they were replaced and transfered to the MBK descendant. I think at that
    point, the original was all gone. But it started my passion for cycling and as such a little bit of
    it will always remain with me.

    Mark
     
  18. Tony W

    Tony W Guest

    "Ric" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > I am trying to be helpful to the original poster, whereas you seem to be just be looking to point
    > score. The original poster should not compromise his choices by seeking offroad ability in his
    > search for a small, compact folder. Maybe the "APB Landrover" is very slightly better than a
    > Brompton offroad, but it will still be a very disagreable and inefficient
    experience
    > (and IMV it is just a cynical attempt to cash in on the fad for offroad looking bikes) After
    > trying it once, he probably would not ride it off
    road
    > again. Then he would have ended up with a bike a lot more expensive, less compact, less foldable,
    > for no useful gain. I told him to forget any
    offroad
    > pretensions in any compact folder, and concentrate on the real choice criteria in a compact folder
    > - ie foldability, price, compactness. I think this is good advice.
    >
    > Suspension allows wheels to
    > > travel over bumps efficiently: that's the whole *point*.
    >
    > So you reckon that if you hit an 8" high bump with 16" wheels (with suspension), it will be no
    > different from hitting the same bump with 28" wheels (no suspension)??? Of course it is not. You
    > will go straight over
    the
    > hanndlebars on the 16" wheel bike because it will stop dead in its tracks
    as
    > the impact from the bump will be applied horizontally directly through the axle. The 28" wheels
    > will climb over it. An extreme example, but you can follow my point without going into the maths
    > of it all. Suspension can
    only
    > help a wheel travel over a bump if the size of the bump is small in
    relation
    > to the wheel radius. This is why small wheel bikes become virtually incontrollable on uneven
    > surfaces, whereas large wheels scarcely notice
    the
    > bumps. Large wheels also offer far more gyroscopic stability, loosely in proportion to the square
    > of the radius, which prevents the front wheel
    from
    > deflecting wildy at the slightest bump - suspension does not alter that.
    >

    Ric. Off road has a multitude of meanings. You may have missed the following in my reply to the OP:-

    "However, in my teens (a long, long time ago) I rode a Moulton 'everywhere' including most of what
    Epping Forest could throw at it all year round. (Its wheels were the same size as the modern
    Brompton's)."

    The Moulton (Deluxe) had 16" wheels, what would now be considered 'slick' or road tyres, 4 gears and
    a simple suspension. OK, that was the 60's and we didn't rocket down hills as I might now on my
    hardtail MTB or do big jumps (which I don't do!!).

    However, I did ride it very extensively round the Epping Forest area -- both on and off road at
    all times of the year (not least because my commute to school was through the forest. It didn't
    (as I remember) deal with deep mud too well and clearly it didn't have the ability to hit rocks
    and roots that a 26" suspended machine would have had. Likewise it wasn't geared to tackle steep
    hills -- you got off & pushed. But, all in all, it did OK. It survives all the everyday stuff that
    a teenager out with his mates could ask of it -- XC racing, fording streams, small jumps. obstacle
    courses -- pretty much everything except, of course, look 'cool' like a proper racing bike that we
    all lusted after at the time :). Yes, hitting an 8" bump would not be a good idea. Solution --
    don't hit 8" bumps.

    Bikes have become much more specialised in recent years so we forget that (except at the very
    specialised extremes) actually the basic bike is a remarkably adaptable, general purpose tool.

    T
     
  19. Ric

    Ric Guest

    "Steve Palincsar" <[email protected]> wrote in message >
    > You simply make a blanket assertion that Moulton ATB/APBs are disagreeable and inefficient off
    > road. Have you any experience to back that up?

    Yes, as I have said elsewhere, I tried that bike when I was looking for a folding MTB. As I also
    said, the front wheel in particular is very hard to control because of the small diameter. I ended
    up getting a folding 26" mountain bike, as I like to ride off road at speeds above walking pace. If
    you are happy with that sort of performance, go for it.

    Or are your opinions as empty and false as your email address?

    Netcop.
     
  20. Ric

    Ric Guest

    "Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Ric wrote:
    >
    > > Exactly - which is why I said a Brompton would be ok. Folds a lot
    better, a
    > > lot more compact, cheaper.
    >
    > A Brompton will *do* basic tracks, but there's an awful lot of space between that and what a full
    > MTB will do. And the APB fits into that space very well: as the C+ reviewer said, it can be ridden
    > safely and at speed on rough tracks, where a Brompton can't. Fit an APB with the right tyres and
    > it'll ride better on the road as well. A Brompton folds better if you need a quick fold. If you
    > need to get something into a car for a holiday and you won't need it to fold when you're there
    > then the separability of a Moulton can actually make for easier and effectively more compact
    > stowage though, and since the OP said the point of a folder was to pack it into his car, that's
    > potentially useful information.
    >
    > The Brompton is the better folder, but the APB is the better all purpose bicycle.

    Well thanks. That is helpful information for the OP, and well argued (though my opinion differs). It
    is a shame you didn't put your point like that initially, instead of the sneering response you
    initially gave to my different opinion.
     
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