opinions on integrated headsets?

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Vincent Chiao, Jun 16, 2003.

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  1. Hi, I was wondering what you guys think of integrated headsets and their durability? I had read
    something from the folks at Chris King, who I presume know a thing or two about headsets, which
    really damned integrated headsets as flawed and claimed they would eventually destroy the frame. Now
    I'm asking this because I just received a frame (from Leader) which I *thought* used an aheadset
    type headset, but in *fact* uses--you guessed it, an integrated headset. Should I return/sell this
    frame and get a new one--is it as dire as Chris King makes it out to be? Or have people had good,
    long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so bad, does it matter which
    integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.
     
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  2. vincent chiao wrote:
    >
    > Hi, I was wondering what you guys think of integrated headsets and their durability? I had read
    > something from the folks at Chris King, who I presume know a thing or two about headsets, which
    > really damned integrated headsets as flawed and claimed they would eventually destroy the frame.
    > Now I'm asking this because I just received a frame (from Leader) which I *thought* used an
    > aheadset type headset, but in *fact* uses--you guessed it, an integrated headset. Should I
    > return/sell this frame and get a new one--is it as dire as Chris King makes it out to be? Or have
    > people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so bad, does
    > it matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

    Integrated Headsets...

    Just Say NO!

    Many of my mechanic freinds have rue'ed the day these things came out on the market. The only
    benefit is to the manufacturers. One member of my club has gone through 3 in 6 months this year.
    Granted, I live in a wetter than usual climate (Oregon) but 3 headsets is beyond belief.

    Joe
    --
    #----------------------------------------------------------# Penguinix Consulting #
    #----------------------------------------------------------# Software development, QA and testing. #
    #Linux support and training. # "Don't fear the penguin!" #
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    #http://counter.li.org # ----------------------------------------------------------#
     
  3. Sandy

    Sandy Guest

    Joe -

    I think you may have something with the IHS interpretation of the JDI. Our version seems
    remarkably sound.

    "Joseph Cipale" <[email protected]> a √©crit dans news:[email protected]...
    > vincent chiao wrote:

    > Integrated Headsets...
    >
    > Just Say NO!
    >
    > Many of my mechanic freinds have rue'ed the day these things came out on the market. The only
    > benefit is to the manufacturers. One member of my club has gone through 3 in 6 months this year.
    > Granted, I live in a wetter than usual climate (Oregon) but 3 headsets is beyond belief.
    >
    > Joe

    I can sympathise - I, too, have occasional problems with english.
     
  4. DiabloScott

    DiabloScott New Member

    Joined:
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    Even the Chris King site makes a distinction between "integrated" headsets and "internal" headsets, which are essentially cartridge bearings bonded to the head and steer tubes. CK's Perdido model acknowledges that "you can have a sexy-looking, low profile headset that won't turn into a headache." I think my internal headset looks cool but if I ever have to replace it I'm sure I'll be swearing at it, but as CK also says "a properly designed headset should last the life of the frame.", that's what I'm banking on. Had to replace a Campy headset once on my old crit bike (it was Brinelled) but then I transferred that second headset (also Campy threaded type) to a new frame a few years later and have been riding it without problems for another 10 years.

    I suggest keeping your frame, it's got the same type of headset attachment as a hundred other high-end framesets.
     
  5. Rick Warner

    Rick Warner Guest

    "vincent chiao" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > Or have people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so
    > bad, does it matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

    Long-term on something that is relatively recent? Reminds me of the job descriptions I see where
    they ask for minimum 5 years experience with something that has been around 3-4 years. Basic
    message, no one has what I would call long-term experience with the beasts. Everything folks are
    saying is based on short term experience or analysis from and engineering standpoint. So you
    will have to decide how comfortable you are adopting something that a lot of good engineers
    claim is flawed.

    My own opinion is that this is a move good for the manufacturers in a couple of ways; one is it
    exposes frames to another source of damage that could require frame replacement. Ka-ching! Ka-ching!
    I like the idea of frames and parts that will last decades, and I have little confidence that a
    frame with integrated headset will last that long. My custom lugged frame, Phil Wood BB, Phil Wood
    hubs, CK headset, Campy Racing Triple fder, TA Zephyr crankset .... those should last, and last, and
    last. I was ready to buy a high-end, name brand bike last when they switched to integrated
    H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to put
    me on their 'preferred customer mailing list'.

    - rick warner
     
  6. On Mon, 16 Jun 2003 10:13:54 +0000, Joseph Cipale wrote:

    > Integrated Headsets...
    >
    > Just Say NO!

    Agreed
    >
    > Many of my mechanic freinds have rue'ed the day these things came out on the market. The only
    > benefit is to the manufacturers. One member of my club has gone through 3 in 6 months this year.
    > Granted, I live in a wetter than usual climate (Oregon) but 3 headsets is beyond belief.

    There could be some sort of rash of bad headsets, or poor installation, in this case. But the real
    problem is not replacing it this year, but replacing it 5 years from now when it has worn out, when
    the company has gone belly-up, and when the new standard is 1.5" so nothing is available that fits.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you _`\(,_ | killed all of us?
    From every corner of Europe, hundreds, (_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places.
    Even Nazis can't kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).
     
  7. TNEWSOME1

    TNEWSOME1 Guest

    Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just like tailfins on a '59 Caddy
    (and they probably do as much good), and is also another excuse for the bike racers not to talk to
    you! Colnago is right: "if it ain't broken, don't fix it". "Rick Warner" <[email protected]>
    wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "vincent chiao" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    >
    > > Or have people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so
    > > bad, does
    it
    > > matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.
    >
    > Long-term on something that is relatively recent? Reminds me of the job descriptions I see where
    > they ask for minimum 5 years experience with something that has been around 3-4 years. Basic
    > message, no one has what I would call long-term experience with the beasts. Everything folks are
    > saying is based on short term experience or analysis from and
    engineering
    > standpoint. So you will have to decide how comfortable you are adopting something that a lot of
    > good engineers claim is flawed.
    >
    > My own opinion is that this is a move good for the manufacturers in a
    couple
    > of ways; one is it exposes frames to another source of damage that could require frame
    > replacement. Ka-ching! Ka-ching! I like the idea of frames and parts that will last decades, and I
    > have little confidence that a frame with integrated headset will last that long. My custom lugged
    > frame, Phil Wood BB, Phil Wood hubs, CK headset, Campy Racing Triple fder, TA Zephyr crankset ....
    > those should last, and last, and last. I was ready to buy a high-end, name brand bike last when
    > they switched to
    integrated
    > H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to put
    > me on their 'preferred customer mailing
    list'.
    >
    > - rick warner
     
  8. Robin Hubert

    Robin Hubert Guest

    My extended character set doesn't allow me to show projectile vomiting.

    --
    Robin Hubert <[email protected]
     
  9. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > > "vincent chiao" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > Or have people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not
    > > > so bad, does
    > it
    > > > matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.

    > "Rick Warner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Long-term on something that is relatively recent? Reminds me of the job descriptions I see where
    > > they ask for minimum 5 years experience with something that has been around 3-4 years. Basic
    > > message, no one has what I would call long-term experience with the beasts. Everything
    folks
    > > are saying is based on short term experience or analysis from and
    > engineering
    > > standpoint. So you will have to decide how comfortable you are
    adopting
    > > something that a lot of good engineers claim is flawed.
    > >
    > > My own opinion is that this is a move good for the manufacturers in a
    > couple
    > > of ways; one is it exposes frames to another source of damage that could require frame
    > > replacement. Ka-ching! Ka-ching! I like the idea of frames and parts that will last decades, and
    > > I have little confidence
    that
    > > a frame with integrated headset will last that long. My custom lugged frame, Phil Wood BB, Phil
    > > Wood hubs, CK headset, Campy Racing Triple
    fder,
    > > TA Zephyr crankset .... those should last, and last, and last. I was ready to buy a high-end,
    > > name brand bike last when they switched to
    > integrated
    > > H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to
    > > put me on their 'preferred customer mailing
    > list'.

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just
    like
    > tailfins on a '59 Caddy (and they probably do as much good), and is also another excuse for the
    > bike racers not to talk to you! Colnago is right:
    "if
    > it ain't broken, don't fix it".

    Ernesto "Twin Seat Tubes" Colnago said that?

    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  10. A Muzi wrote:
    >>>"vincent chiao" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>
    >>news:<[email protected]>...
    >>
    >>>>Or have people had good, long-term relationships with their integrated headsets? If it's not so
    >>>>bad, does
    >>>
    >>it
    >>
    >>>>matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks! Vincent.
    >>>
    >
    >>"Rick Warner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>news:[email protected]...
    >>
    >>>Long-term on something that is relatively recent? Reminds me of the job descriptions I see where
    >>>they ask for minimum 5 years experience with something that has been around 3-4 years. Basic
    >>>message, no one has what I would call long-term experience with the beasts. Everything
    >>
    > folks
    >
    >>>are saying is based on short term experience or analysis from and
    >>
    >>engineering
    >>
    >>>standpoint. So you will have to decide how comfortable you are
    >>
    > adopting
    >
    >>>something that a lot of good engineers claim is flawed.
    >>>
    >>>My own opinion is that this is a move good for the manufacturers in a
    >>
    >>couple
    >>
    >>>of ways; one is it exposes frames to another source of damage that could require frame
    >>>replacement. Ka-ching! Ka-ching! I like the idea of frames and parts that will last decades, and
    >>>I have little confidence
    >>
    > that
    >
    >>>a frame with integrated headset will last that long. My custom lugged frame, Phil Wood BB, Phil
    >>>Wood hubs, CK headset, Campy Racing Triple
    >>
    > fder,
    >
    >>>TA Zephyr crankset .... those should last, and last, and last. I was ready to buy a high-end,
    >>>name brand bike last when they switched to
    >>
    >>integrated
    >>
    >>>H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to
    >>> put me on their 'preferred customer mailing
    >>
    >>list'.
    >
    >
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >
    >>Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just
    >
    > like
    >
    >>tailfins on a '59 Caddy (and they probably do as much good), and is also another excuse for the
    >>bike racers not to talk to you! Colnago is right:
    >
    > "if
    >
    >>it ain't broken, don't fix it".
    >
    >
    >
    > Ernesto "Twin Seat Tubes" Colnago said that?

    I remember when Colnago played with twin downtubes; did he also toy with twin seat tubes? Didn't
    Gios once push the twin seat tube idea?

    Mark McMaster [email protected]
     
  11. vincent asked-<< Hi, I was wondering what you guys think of integrated headsets and their
    durability? >><BR><BR>

    Just saw a Cramerotti with an ovalized headtube with a integrated HS.

    Think it's an answer to a not asked question BUT aluminum and ti frame builders like it as the 1 1/8
    inch headtube, if integrated, is the biggest there is. 'Rounder' miters, easier to weld.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  12. On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 02:03:43 GMT, <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just like tailfins on a '59 Caddy
    >(and they probably do as much good),

    Hey, those tailfins look damn good.

    Jasper
     
  13. Jim Edgar

    Jim Edgar Guest

    Robin Hubert at [email protected] wrote on 6/16/03 10:12 PM:

    > My extended character set doesn't allow me to show projectile vomiting.
    >

    easy....

    %^0 ---===###@
     
  14. DiabloScott

    DiabloScott New Member

    Joined:
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    I don't know if Ernesto ever said that, he certainly wasn't the first to say that.
    First straight-blade forks I ever saw were also on a Colnago.
    I think the first carbon rear triangle I ever saw was on a Colnago (not a monostay).
    FYI, plural of Colnago is Colnaghi.
     
  15. @#!&%#%&*!!$^&!!

    Sheldon "Brevity Is The Soul Of Wit" Brown +-----------------------------------------+
    | When I cannot sing my heart, | I can only speak my mind... | --John Lennon |
    +-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
    617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
    http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
     
  16. Chalo

    Chalo Guest

    "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote, about integrated headsets:
    >
    > ...the real problem is not replacing it this year, but replacing it 5 years from now when it has
    > worn out, when the company has gone belly-up, and when the new standard is 1.5" so nothing is
    > available that fits.

    Actually, "integrated" headsets fit in a bigger bore than any other commonly used headsets,
    and should therefore be sleevable to fit any other headset standard (with the possible
    exception of 1.5").

    Even if you don't trust in the continued availability of integrated HS parts, the fact that they are
    retrofittable is a hedge against incompatibility in the long run.

    Chalo Colina
     
  17. Robin Hubert

    Robin Hubert Guest

  18. Robin Hubert

    Robin Hubert Guest

    "Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote, about integrated headsets:
    > >
    > > ...the real problem is not replacing it this year, but replacing it 5 years from now when it has
    > > worn out, when the company has gone belly-up, and when the new standard is 1.5" so nothing is
    > > available that fits.
    >
    > Actually, "integrated" headsets fit in a bigger bore than any other commonly used headsets,
    > and should therefore be sleevable to fit any other headset standard (with the possible
    > exception of 1.5").

    Provided there is a tool or tools to accomplish the job, and that the head tube material will allow
    the retrofit.

    > Even if you don't trust in the continued availability of integrated HS parts, the fact that they
    > are retrofittable is a hedge against incompatibility in the long run.
    >
    > Chalo Colina

    --
    Robin Hubert <[email protected]
     
  19. On Tue, 17 Jun 2003 16:02:56 +0000, Chalo wrote:

    > "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote, about integrated headsets:
    >>
    >> ...the real problem is not replacing it this year, but replacing it 5 years from now when it has
    >> worn out, when the company has gone belly-up, and when the new standard is 1.5" so nothing is
    >> available that fits.
    >
    > Actually, "integrated" headsets fit in a bigger bore than any other commonly used headsets,
    > and should therefore be sleevable to fit any other headset standard (with the possible
    > exception of 1.5").
    >
    > Even if you don't trust in the continued availability of integrated HS parts, the fact that they
    > are retrofittable is a hedge against incompatibility in the long run.

    Not really. Yeah, the headset will be re-usable. But you are talking about a $50 part embedded in a
    $1000 frame. Finding a headset to fit the frame is the issue, not finding a frame sleeve to let the
    headset work.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems. _`\(,_ | -- Paul Erdos
    (_)/ (_) |
     
  20. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > >>>"vincent chiao" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >>news:<[email protected]>...
    -snip-
    > >>> does it
    > >>>>matter which integrated headset I get? (Help!) Thanks!

    > >>"Rick Warner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >>news:[email protected]...
    -snip-
    > >>>H/S: I wrote them and told them they had just lost a sale and why. Their only response was to
    > >>> put me on their 'preferred customer mailing
    > >>list'.

    > > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >>Agreed. The purpose of integrated headsets is design obselesence, just
    > > like
    > >>tailfins on a '59 Caddy (and they probably do as much good), and is also another excuse for the
    > >>bike racers not to talk to you! Colnago is right: if it ain't broken, don't fix it".

    > A Muzi wrote:
    > > Ernesto "Twin Seat Tubes" Colnago said that?

    "Mark McMaster" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I remember when Colnago played with twin downtubes; did he also toy with twin seat tubes? Didn't
    > Gios once push the twin seat tube idea?

    I'm not Colnago-obsessed. I may have remembered that wrong. I found "If it ain't broken. . . " being
    ascribed to Ernesto humorous, anyway.
    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
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