Opinions on two different makes of bikes

[[email protected]]

I'm looking to buy a new bike in the future (probably next year) and
am particularly interested in two brands: Waterford and Independent
Fabrication. I like steel bikes and really like the styling of these
two.

I have a bit of a flexibility problem due to a four disc spinal fusion
and would have to have something with the bars at least at saddle
height. I do like drop bars because of the different positions
available and also because they just look right on a road bike. I
would want it set up to take at least a 28mm tire with fenders (and
32mm would be nicer). Rack mounts would also be appreciated in case I
ever decide to tour long distances with it. Right now it would only be
overnight trips with a saddlebar and bar bag.

The IF bike would have one significant advantage: I have a dealer
about fifty miles away (I'm way out in the boonies and for me that's
local) while I would have to go 175 miles to St. Louis to find a
Waterford dealer. I've also dealt with the IF dealer in the past (they
sold me my Lemond) and we have a good relationship.

Does anyone have any experience with either of these brands? What are
your likes and dislikes? Would you buy one again? Thanks in advance
for any and all feedback.

Smokey

 

[landotter]

On Sep 22, 12:09 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> I'm looking to buy a new bike in the future (probably next year) and
> am particularly interested in two brands: Waterford and Independent
> Fabrication. I like steel bikes and really like the styling of these
> two.

For my money, I'd go for a Gunnar Sport, which is a tremendously smart
and nice frame, also made by Waterford folks, but no lugs and less
fancy finish. It's got a sloping top tube, and with a few spacers on
the fork--you can get those bars up where you need them. Long reach
brakes and eyelets for your other needs:


http://www.gunnarbikes.com/sport.php

$750, frame only

 

[[email protected]]

On Sep 22, 12:49 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 22, 12:09 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > I'm looking to buy a new bike in the future (probably next year) and
> > am particularly interested in two brands: Waterford and Independent
> > Fabrication. I like steel bikes and really like the styling of these
> > two.
>
> For my money, I'd go for a Gunnar Sport, which is a tremendously smart
> and nice frame, also made by Waterford folks, but no lugs and less
> fancy finish. It's got a sloping top tube, and with a few spacers on
> the fork--you can get those bars up where you need them. Long reach
> brakes and eyelets for your other needs:
>
> http://www.gunnarbikes.com/sport.php
>
> $750, frame only

Hey, thanks for the suggestion. Nice looking frame with good
clearances and bar/saddle relationship and I really like that Gunnar
blue color. Best of all, my local dealer carries them.

Smokey

 

[Dennis Ferguson]

On 2007-09-22, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 22, 12:49 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Sep 22, 12:09 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> > I'm looking to buy a new bike in the future (probably next year) and
>> > am particularly interested in two brands: Waterford and Independent
>> > Fabrication. I like steel bikes and really like the styling of these
>> > two.
>>
>> For my money, I'd go for a Gunnar Sport, which is a tremendously smart
>> and nice frame, also made by Waterford folks, but no lugs and less
>> fancy finish. It's got a sloping top tube, and with a few spacers on
>> the fork--you can get those bars up where you need them. Long reach
>> brakes and eyelets for your other needs:
>>
>> http://www.gunnarbikes.com/sport.php
>>
>> $750, frame only
>
> Hey, thanks for the suggestion. Nice looking frame with good
> clearances and bar/saddle relationship and I really like that Gunnar
> blue color. Best of all, my local dealer carries them.

Well, if you are still looking at alternatives then, for what it's worth,
I own both a Gunnar Sport and a Co-Motion Nor'Wester, and if I could only
have one of them I'd keep the Nor-Wester. On my bikes (with the same top
tube lengths) it took pretty much the same number of spacers on the
steerer to get the bars up to seat level, and while I have a list of
(very) minor grievances about bits of the Gunnar there is nothing at
all I'm unhappy with on the Co-Motion. I also think the Co-Motion is
prettier, though this is strictly a matter of personal taste.

If I had to pay for them again it might be closer, however, since the
Gunnar was significantly cheaper than the Co-Motion (particularly since
it was a left over 9-speed bike well after Ultegra groups had acquired
a 10th cog), but I'm really very fond of the Nor'Wester.

Dennis Ferguson

 

[Gooserider]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sep 22, 12:49 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Sep 22, 12:09 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> > I'm looking to buy a new bike in the future (probably next year) and
>> > am particularly interested in two brands: Waterford and Independent
>> > Fabrication. I like steel bikes and really like the styling of these
>> > two.
>>
>> For my money, I'd go for a Gunnar Sport, which is a tremendously smart
>> and nice frame, also made by Waterford folks, but no lugs and less
>> fancy finish. It's got a sloping top tube, and with a few spacers on
>> the fork--you can get those bars up where you need them. Long reach
>> brakes and eyelets for your other needs:
>>
>> http://www.gunnarbikes.com/sport.php
>>
>> $750, frame only
>
> Hey, thanks for the suggestion. Nice looking frame with good
> clearances and bar/saddle relationship and I really like that Gunnar
> blue color. Best of all, my local dealer carries them.
>
> Smokey

I own a Gunnar Sport. Fantastic bike. And dealing with the folks at
Waterford/Gunnar is nothing but a pleasure. I had to return my frame for
repaint after an accident, and Richard Schwinn is a great guy. I don't think
there are many bike companies where you have a good chance of having the CEO
answer the phone, but Waterford is one.

 

[Ted]

I realize this is not one of your suggestions but what about a
Rivendell. All their bikes have the bars at seat height without
spacers, have hardware for racks, are handmade steel, will take quite
wide tires and fenders, and Grant will answer the phone. I don't know
how much adjustment you would have to do with a mail order bike
though.

Ted.

 

[[email protected]]

On Sep 22, 10:13 pm, Ted <[email protected]> wrote:
> I realize this is not one of your suggestions but what about a
> Rivendell. All their bikes have the bars at seat height without
> spacers, have hardware for racks, are handmade steel, will take quite
> wide tires and fenders, and Grant will answer the phone. I don't know
> how much adjustment you would have to do with a mail order bike
> though.
>
> Ted.

I've considered a Rivendell (probably the A. Homer Hilsen), but would
like to give the business to my local shop. Also, maybe it's just me,
but their bikes seem pretty high priced for what you get.

Smokey

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Sep 22, 10:18 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sep 22, 10:13 pm, Ted <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I realize this is not one of your suggestions but what about a
> > Rivendell. All their bikes have the bars at seat height without
> > spacers, have hardware for racks, are handmade steel, will take quite
> > wide tires and fenders, and Grant will answer the phone. I don't know
> > how much adjustment you would have to do with a mail order bike
> > though.
>
> > Ted.
>
> I've considered a Rivendell (probably the A. Homer Hilsen), but would
> like to give the business to my local shop. Also, maybe it's just me,
> but their bikes seem pretty high priced for what you get.
>

Yeah, but you get all that great prose on their site to reinforce your
purchase decision and make you feel like a smart buyer, even though
you *did* pay ~$2800 for a $1500 bike. And got some weird, hard-to-
find-parts-for wheels and tires in the bargain

 

[Lynne Fitz]

Carry a couple of spares and a patch kit. Don't you do that anyway?
Or use a 26" tube with a Presta valve. It will work just fine.

On Sep 23, 10:00 am, [email protected] wrote:
> That is pretty strange. What do you do when you're on tour and need a
> 650B tube in Bumphuque, Kansas?
>
> Smokey- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

 

[[email protected]]

On Sep 23, 4:31 pm, Lynne Fitz <[email protected]> wrote:
> Carry a couple of spares and a patch kit. Don't you do that anyway?
> Or use a 26" tube with a Presta valve. It will work just fine.
>
> On Sep 23, 10:00 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
> > That is pretty strange. What do you do when you're on tour and need a
> > 650B tube in Bumphuque, Kansas?
>
> > Smokey- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Yes, I carry a spare tube and patch kit. I wasn't thinking about
alternate sizes when I mentioned the tube, you are both right about
that. However, tires can have sidewall blowouts or get cut so badly
that they must be replaced. I don't carry a spare tire, although I
know some long distance tourists do. It would still seem more
practical to base smaller sized bikes around 26" wheels and the large
ones on 700s. I am on Grant's mailing list and get his catalogs, but
haven't bought too many items (saddlebag and handlebar). He really
pushes the retro items, nothing wrong with that, but also seems to
resent any newer advances made since clipless pedals and indexed
shifting appeared. That would seem to limit his market, as do the 650
wheels.

Smokey

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Sep 23, 4:31 pm, Lynne Fitz <[email protected]> wrote:
> Carry a couple of spares and a patch kit. Don't you do that anyway?
> Or use a 26" tube with a Presta valve. It will work just fine.

And if you need a new tire? Or, worse, a wheel or rim? Just hole up at
the Motel 6 until that "special order" from QBP rolls in? And pay
through the nose for good measure?

IMO, wheels/rims/tires with very limited availability (650B being a
prime example) are a *spectacularly* bad idea on any bicycle sold as a
"touring bike".


>
> On Sep 23, 10:00 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > That is pretty strange. What do you do when you're on tour and need a
> > 650B tube in Bumphuque, Kansas?
>
> > Smokey- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -

 

[landotter]

On Sep 23, 5:14 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 23, 4:31 pm, Lynne Fitz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Carry a couple of spares and a patch kit. Don't you do that anyway?
> > Or use a 26" tube with a Presta valve. It will work just fine.
>
> And if you need a new tire? Or, worse, a wheel or rim? Just hole up at
> the Motel 6 until that "special order" from QBP rolls in? And pay
> through the nose for good measure?
>

But if you're on 26" wheels and run over a dropped muffler in Fife
Alabama, some dude in a truck will offer you a wheel offa his *mart
bike he never uses--and it'll get you far enough to get a proper
replacement.

I just can't fathom why somebody would design a bike around this size
other than to be contrary. To think I once sorta wanted to get a 700c
rambouillet. Never will I have that thought again--and they've even
discontinued them in order to pimp the Homer Simpson.

 

[Lynne Fitz]

I carry a spare tire. Even when I'm riding my 700c bike on long rides
out in the middle of nowhere, I carry a spare tire. Be Prepared and
all that...

I should point out that 650B tires don't get near the number of flats
that the high-pressure 700c tires do. I'm still on my original tires
at 1900 miles, and have had only 1 flat. This includes several
brevets, and riding in Utah, Michigan, Oregon, and Central Europe.

On Sep 23, 2:49 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Sep 23, 4:31 pm, Lynne Fitz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Carry a couple of spares and a patch kit. Don't you do that anyway?
> > Or use a 26" tube with a Presta valve. It will work just fine.
>
> > On Sep 23, 10:00 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > > That is pretty strange. What do you do when you're on tour and need a
> > > 650B tube in Bumphuque, Kansas?
> ...snip...
> that they must be replaced. I don't carry a spare tire, although I
> know some long distance tourists do. It would still seem more
> practical to base smaller sized bikes around 26" wheels and the large
> ones on 700s. I am on Grant's mailing list and get his catalogs, but
> haven't bought too many items (saddlebag and handlebar). He really
> pushes the retro items, nothing wrong with that, but also seems to
> resent any newer advances made since clipless pedals and indexed
> shifting appeared. That would seem to limit his market, as do the 650
> wheels.
>
> Smokey

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Sep 23, 7:12 pm, Lynne Fitz <[email protected]> wrote:
> I carry a spare tire. Even when I'm riding my 700c bike on long rides
> out in the middle of nowhere, I carry a spare tire. Be Prepared and
> all that...
>
> I should point out that 650B tires don't get near the number of flats
> that the high-pressure 700c tires do.


Are you suggesting that 650B tires are somehow magically more puncture
resistant than 700C tires? Or are saying that you get fewer pinch
flats using fat(ter) 650Bs than when using skinny "high-pressure 700c
tires"?


> I'm still on my original tires
> at 1900 miles, and have had only 1 flat.


I got a flat in August. Prior to that, I went 26+ months and 10,000+
miles without a flat. So, using your logic, 700Cs "don't get nearly
the number of flats" that (your) 650Bs do.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Sep 23, 5:33 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 23, 5:14 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Sep 23, 4:31 pm, Lynne Fitz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Carry a couple of spares and a patch kit. Don't you do that anyway?
> > > Or use a 26" tube with a Presta valve. It will work just fine.
>
> > And if you need a new tire? Or, worse, a wheel or rim? Just hole up at
> > the Motel 6 until that "special order" from QBP rolls in? And pay
> > through the nose for good measure?
>
> But if you're on 26" wheels and run over a dropped muffler in Fife
> Alabama, some dude in a truck will offer you a wheel offa his *mart
> bike he never uses--and it'll get you far enough to get a proper
> replacement.
>
> I just can't fathom why somebody would design a bike around this size
> other than to be contrary.

1) Niche marketing

2) An attempt to create a company 'identity' ("Rivendell, the 650B
Guys")

3) A way to sell yet another, otherwise very similar, bike, to the
same small customer base.

Sad thing is, The Grant used to inveigh against hard-to-get, non-
standard parts, and now he is promoting a hard-to-get, non-standard
wheel/tire size.


> To think I once sorta wanted to get a 700c
> rambouillet. Never will I have that thought again--and they've even
> discontinued them in order to pimp the Homer Simpson.

Well, at least Homely is a 700C bike.......

 

[landotter]

On Sep 23, 9:15 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 23, 7:12 pm, Lynne Fitz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I carry a spare tire. Even when I'm riding my 700c bike on long rides
> > out in the middle of nowhere, I carry a spare tire. Be Prepared and
> > all that...
>
> > I should point out that 650B tires don't get near the number of flats
> > that the high-pressure 700c tires do.
>
> Are you suggesting that 650B tires are somehow magically more puncture
> resistant than 700C tires? Or are saying that you get fewer pinch
> flats using fat(ter) 650Bs than when using skinny "high-pressure 700c
> tires"?
>
> > I'm still on my original tires
> > at 1900 miles, and have had only 1 flat.
>
> I got a flat in August. Prior to that, I went 26+ months and 10,000+
> miles without a flat. So, using your logic, 700Cs "don't get nearly
> the number of flats" that (your) 650Bs do.

Dude, you just don't get it, man. Arbitrary wheel sizes are the new
saggy britches or stove pipe jeans depending on your style.

Dirty secret: I would have been thrilled if Grant had put out a 27"
bike--that would have been retrotastic and a bit silly just for
silliness's sake--but you'd still have an easier time sorting out
tires.

 

[landotter]

On Sep 23, 9:22 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 23, 5:33 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 23, 5:14 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Sep 23, 4:31 pm, Lynne Fitz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Carry a couple of spares and a patch kit. Don't you do that anyway?
> > > > Or use a 26" tube with a Presta valve. It will work just fine.
>
> > > And if you need a new tire? Or, worse, a wheel or rim? Just hole up at
> > > the Motel 6 until that "special order" from QBP rolls in? And pay
> > > through the nose for good measure?
>
> > But if you're on 26" wheels and run over a dropped muffler in Fife
> > Alabama, some dude in a truck will offer you a wheel offa his *mart
> > bike he never uses--and it'll get you far enough to get a proper
> > replacement.
>
> > I just can't fathom why somebody would design a bike around this size
> > other than to be contrary.
>
> 1) Niche marketing
>
> 2) An attempt to create a company 'identity' ("Rivendell, the 650B
> Guys")
>
> 3) A way to sell yet another, otherwise very similar, bike, to the
> same small customer base.
>
> Sad thing is, The Grant used to inveigh against hard-to-get, non-
> standard parts, and now he is promoting a hard-to-get, non-standard
> wheel/tire size.

That's the bizarre deal. He used to promote **** in the sense that,
"hey, we'll send you a cassette, and it'll be pretty darn nice" and
used boring but good parts like Sugino XDs and Tektro Oryx cantis.
Cheapish but great parts.

>
> > To think I once sorta wanted to get a 700c
> > rambouillet. Never will I have that thought again--and they've even
> > discontinued them in order to pimp the Homer Simpson.
>
> Well, at least Homely is a 700C bike.......

It is, then. My bad. I thought it was another 650B abomination.

I do generally like the same aesthetic is what's funny--I'm thinking
of building up a Japanese style brevety thing as my next bike--but I
just abhor ********. Acquaintances of mine that run the local natural
foods store asked why I don't shop there anymore, and I replied
simply, "You sell homeopathic 'medicine', a lie that was exposed a
hundred years ago." Apply to bikes, rinse, repeat.

 

[Lynne Fitz]

I don't get pinch flats at all. The joys of being a smaller person.
Another reason I like 650B wheels. The flats I get are from glass or
thorns.

I have had 700c tires explode on me - casing failure. (They weren't
Contis )

That said, I'm happy with my bike(s) and the choices I made. Your
mileage may vary.

On Sep 23, 7:15 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 23, 7:12 pm, Lynne Fitz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I carry a spare tire. Even when I'm riding my 700c bike on long rides
> > out in the middle of nowhere, I carry a spare tire. Be Prepared and
> > all that...
>
> > I should point out that 650B tires don't get near the number of flats
> > that the high-pressure 700c tires do.
>
> Are you suggesting that 650B tires are somehow magically more puncture
> resistant than 700C tires? Or are saying that you get fewer pinch
> flats using fat(ter) 650Bs than when using skinny "high-pressure 700c
> tires"?
>
> > I'm still on my original tires
> > at 1900 miles, and have had only 1 flat.
>
> I got a flat in August. Prior to that, I went 26+ months and 10,000+
> miles without a flat. So, using your logic, 700Cs "don't get nearly
> the number of flats" that (your) 650Bs do.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Sep 23, 9:32 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 23, 9:22 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Sep 23, 5:33 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Sep 23, 5:14 pm, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > On Sep 23, 4:31 pm, Lynne Fitz <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > Carry a couple of spares and a patch kit. Don't you do that anyway?
> > > > > Or use a 26" tube with a Presta valve. It will work just fine.
>
> > > > And if you need a new tire? Or, worse, a wheel or rim? Just hole up at
> > > > the Motel 6 until that "special order" from QBP rolls in? And pay
> > > > through the nose for good measure?
>
> > > But if you're on 26" wheels and run over a dropped muffler in Fife
> > > Alabama, some dude in a truck will offer you a wheel offa his *mart
> > > bike he never uses--and it'll get you far enough to get a proper
> > > replacement.
>
> > > I just can't fathom why somebody would design a bike around this size
> > > other than to be contrary.
>
> > 1) Niche marketing
>
> > 2) An attempt to create a company 'identity' ("Rivendell, the 650B
> > Guys")
>
> > 3) A way to sell yet another, otherwise very similar, bike, to the
> > same small customer base.
>
> > Sad thing is, The Grant used to inveigh against hard-to-get, non-
> > standard parts, and now he is promoting a hard-to-get, non-standard
> > wheel/tire size.
>
> That's the bizarre deal. He used to promote **** in the sense that,
> "hey, we'll send you a cassette, and it'll be pretty darn nice" and
> used boring but good parts like Sugino XDs and Tektro Oryx cantis.
> Cheapish but great parts.
>
>
>
> > > To think I once sorta wanted to get a 700c
> > > rambouillet. Never will I have that thought again--and they've even
> > > discontinued them in order to pimp the Homer Simpson.
>
> > Well, at least Homely is a 700C bike.......
>
> It is, then. My bad. I thought it was another 650B abomination.

No, it's an island of relative normalcy on PlanetHobbit, but only
available in larger (58cm and up, IIRC).
>
> I do generally like the same aesthetic is what's funny

I like lugged steel frames, etc., too. But the cutesy poo names, etc.,
that Riv uses are a real turnoff, IMO.


>--I'm thinking
> of building up a Japanese style brevety thing as my next bike

Hmm......I've a circa 1975 Motobecane Grand Jubile frame/fork that
needs an appreciative owner. If interested, email me and I'll give ya
more details.


--but I
> just abhor ********.

I'm with ya there!


>Acquaintances of mine that run the local natural
> foods store asked why I don't shop there anymore, and I replied
> simply, "You sell homeopathic 'medicine', a lie that was exposed a
> hundred years ago."

There's no ******** like recycled, New Age ********. :-((



>Apply to bikes, rinse, repeat.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Sep 23, 9:39 pm, Lynne Fitz <[email protected]> wrote:
> I don't get pinch flats at all. The joys of being a smaller person.
> Another reason I like 650B wheels. The flats I get are from glass or
> thorns.

So you *are* saying that 650B tires are somehow magically more
puncture resistant than are "high-pressure 700c tires"!?! All based on
your limited experience (1900 miles) with one pair of 650B tires?


>
> I have had 700c tires explode on me - casing failure. (They weren't
> Contis )


I have had a bottle of champagne explode on me - got too cold on a
porch in the winter (it wasn't Perrier-Jouet ). I think it's
equally germane......


>
> That said, I'm happy with my bike(s) and the choices I made. Your
> mileage may vary.
>