OS Grid reference - how to find?

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:04:59 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris

Malcolm) said:

Now that we have easy access to GPSRs which can supply grid refs as an estimate to a one metre
"point" (ok, square if you like) plus several metres probable error, the OS convention is somewhat
incovenient and out-dated.

Hardly, what are you going to do if your battery is flat?

Not everyone has GPS, nor really need one.

Dewi,

(remove spin for email)

"Ian Dainty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"Graham Seed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I've been given time off for good behaviour 14/15/16 Nov. Fancy a hike over a mountain and
several quarts of ale? Can we do expedition 19b? What number are we up to? I've missed the last
7.......

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G

Sounds good. Especially the ale part. It must be two years since

you've

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been along. Wasn't it the Christmas 2001 meet at the Brecons? It

snowed

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on the Sunday and it was a bit chilly in the tent as I recall.

Ian.

Ok then expedition (19-5 0r 4)b. Yes, it was a tad chilly, but then we are made of sterner
stuff.[1] Graham
[1] ...where's my hot water bottle?

"David Laight" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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I also notice that my browser (IE) runs out of characters on the bottom

line

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and drops the less significant figures of the y value

Actually it will be chopping an great chunk out of the middle at hat

point.

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Mozilla seems to chop at the same place!

Either:
1) Use a wider window
2) Delete most of the [censored] from the URL You only need

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(z=4 gives you a 5x5 image instead of the usual 3x3)

Thanks for the info, very useful.

Bob

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:04:59 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris

Malcolm) said:

Graham Seed said:

"Chris" <proteus1@gmxDOTnet> wrote

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Quoted message said:

a 6 figure grid reference will give you a position accurate to the nearest 100 metres...

an 8 figure grid reference will give you a position accurate to the nearest 10 metres...

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No, he means the reference is to a square, ie the SW corner of that square and whatever you are
refering to is contained within the square, in which case you could be more than 100m away from
your target with a 6 figure reference. This is the convention that the OS has used while i have
worked there, although I have had some lengthy arguements with Roger, and I accept his view that
another convention could mean the reference was to the centre of your target.

Now that we have easy access to GPSRs which can supply grid refs as an estimate to a one metre
"point" (ok, square if you like) plus several metres probable error, the OS convention is somewhat
incovenient and out-dated.

Not if you're doing biological distribution mapping, it isn't. Whatever precision a grid ref of a
locality is quoted to, it refers to the SW corner of the square at that precision. Apart from the
fact that a change would invalidate the millions of existing records held across many systems, it
would be _less_ convenient, because more difficult to relate easily by sight to the area on a
gridded map. (And even require slightly more mental arithmetic to correlate to a GPS reading.)

Roger Chapman said:

If you go ahead with the Lyn y Fan Fawr meet I might wander up and have a chat sometime but for
most of the weekend I will be otherwise engaged. As for November ISTR that can be a miserable month
(but not as miserable as December). I might manage it if I can tear myself away from my primary
objective of completing the Wainwrights before Paul R.

Ha ha! I don't think you'll have much trouble there, Roger. I'm not rushing at the moment. I had a
route planned for last weekend which included a dozen, but I've damaged a muscle while running and
had to put the walk off. I may go next week if it's OK by then. The other thing is that day length
has now shortened to the point where very long walks aren't really practical. I did think I'd
complete the lot this year, but I don't think I will now.

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Dewi said:

Not everyone has GPS, nor really need one.

Whoever told you that was lying. If you haven't got a GPS you will die.

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Dewi said:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:04:59 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris Malcolm) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now that we have easy access to GPSRs which can supply grid refs as an estimate to a one metre
"point" (ok, square if you like) plus several metres probable error, the OS convention is somewhat
incovenient and out-dated.

Quoted message said:

Hardly, what are you going to do if your battery is flat?

You must be one of those folk who don't use pens because the ink might run out.

Me? I carry spare batteries.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
["]http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

"Graham Seed" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Ok then expedition (19-5 0r 4)b. Yes, it was a tad chilly, but then we are made of sterner
stuff.[1] Graham
[1] ...where's my hot water bottle?

Really? I thought we wussed out and bu88ered off early on the Sunday. It was snowing however. And
I'd run out of weetabix.

Ian.

--
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The message <[email hidden]>
from Martin Rand <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now that we have easy access to GPSRs which can supply grid refs as an estimate to a one metre
"point" (ok, square if you like) plus several metres probable error, the OS convention is
somewhat incovenient and out-dated.

Quoted message said:

Not if you're doing biological distribution mapping, it isn't. Whatever precision a grid ref of a
locality is quoted to, it refers to the SW corner of the square at that precision. Apart from the
fact that a change would invalidate the millions of existing records held across many systems, it
would be _less_ convenient, because more difficult to relate easily by sight to the area on a
gridded map. (And even require slightly more mental arithmetic to correlate to a GPS reading.)

You are barking up the wrong tree. GPS references are true co-ordinates unlike the American*
convention belatedly adopted by our OS. (Someone, Dominic possibly, has previously confirmed that
GPS references are rounded, not truncated).

The original system which the OS misguidedly junked could be used to define a square as well as a
point by the simple expedient of clearly stating that the reference was for a square.

Meanwhile those not 'in the know' will continue to take the instructions on a map to make a grid
reference a point at face value while most of the rest of us will continue to treat it as a point
for practical reasons.

On the example used above I can't see that using real co-ordinates would make the slightest bit of
difference. The point quoted is still the SW corner of the grid square and all that would be
necessary would be to

*Yes, I don't actually know that it is the Americans fault but it seems likely that when the
Americans reinvented (borrowed,stole, call it what you will) our system they missed the important
bit that the default reference was a point and took the occasional references to a square as
reinforcing their misunderstanding.

Completely OT (but relevant to the above paragraph) a recent C4 documentary on the sound barrier
highlighted a similar misunderstanding. When the Yanks were given access to the British supersonic
project (M52 IIRC) they tookaway detailed plans which included the key to control though the sound
barrier, the moving tailplane. When the came to build their rocket engined imitation (their jet
engines weren't up to the task at the time) the significance of the moving tailplane was overlooked
and it ended up as a tailplane with adjustable attitude, but not, in its original form, adjustable
in flight.

--
Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
killfiled on sight

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 14:24:43 +0100, Paul Rooney <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Dewi said:

Not everyone has GPS, nor really need one.

Whoever told you that was lying. If you haven't got a GPS you will die.

:-)

To the best of my knowledge we are all going to die, the big question is...when?

Dewi,

(remove spin for email)

The message <[email hidden]>
from Paul Rooney <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

I might manage it if I can tear myself away from my

Quoted message said:

primary objective of completing the Wainwrights before Paul R.

Quoted message said:

Ha ha! I don't think you'll have much trouble there, Roger. I'm not rushing at the moment. I had a
route planned for last weekend which included a dozen, but I've damaged a muscle while running and
had to put the walk off. I may go next week if it's OK by then. The other thing is that day length
has now shortened to the point where very long walks aren't really practical. I did think I'd
complete the lot this year, but I don't think I will now.

A dozen!!!!! No wonder your leg went on strike before the event.

I had intended to finish on or about my 60th birthday in May next year until I realised how quickly
you were catching me up. With any luck it will be sooner rather than later if I avoid any injury but
I currently have a niggle of my own caused by (I think) stumbling when lifting a heavy stone. (Sharp
pain in the right calf that hasn't completely gone away. Public health warning - dry stone walling
can damage your fitness).

Most of my recent day trips to the LD have been about 12 hours or so away from home so even in the
depths of winter I should not be too troubled by lack of daylight. Lack of good weather is a
different matter entirely. :-(

--
Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
killfiled on sight

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 18:29:06 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris

Malcolm) said:

Dewi said:

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 09:04:59 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden] (Chris Malcolm) wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now that we have easy access to GPSRs which can supply grid refs as an estimate to a one metre
"point" (ok, square if you like) plus several metres probable error, the OS convention is
somewhat incovenient and out-dated.

Quoted message said:

Hardly, what are you going to do if your battery is flat?

You must be one of those folk who don't use pens because the ink might run out.

Me? I carry spare batteries.

Why would I use a pen on a map?

Pencil goes with a map...

Dewi,

(remove spin for email)

"Ian Dainty" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Really? I thought we wussed out and bu88ered off early on the

Sunday.

Oh yes we did. I meant stern as in wussy.

Quoted message said:

It was snowing however. And I'd run out of weetabix.

Wasn't it New Year's Eve? The weetabix shops were probably all shut then.

Graham

Martin Richardson said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Roger Chapman
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

If you go ahead with the Lyn y Fan Fawr meet I might wander up and have a chat sometime but for
most of the weekend I will be otherwise engaged. As for November ISTR that can be a miserable
month (but not as miserable as December). I might manage it if I can tear myself away from my
primary objective of completing the Wainwrights before Paul R.

Does that include the Outlying fells?

I don't think I could be bothered with those - they don't look all that appealing.

--
Paul My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003): paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.comOpen ↗ 114
Wainwrights

Please sponsor me for the London Marathon at: justgiving.comlondon2004Open ↗

The message <[email hidden]>
from Martin Richardson <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

I might manage it if I can tear myself away from my

Quoted message said:

primary objective of completing the Wainwrights before Paul R.

Does that include the Outlying fells?

No. I have read the blurb and concluded I am not quite old enough for the Outlying Fells.

--
Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
killfiled on sight

Dewi said:

To the best of my knowledge we are all going to die, the big question is...when?

If you have a GPS with you, you might even know where. ;-

Dewi said:

Paul Rooney said:

Dewi said:

Not everyone has GPS, nor really need one.

Whoever told you that was lying. If you haven't got a GPS you will die.

:-)

To the best of my knowledge we are all going to die,

Not if you have a black GPS.

--
Paul My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003): paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.comOpen ↗ 114
Wainwrights

Please sponsor me for the London Marathon at: justgiving.comlondon2004Open ↗

The message <[email hidden]>
from Roger Chapman <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]> from Martin Richardson
<[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I might manage it if I can tear myself away from my

Quoted message said:

primary objective of completing the Wainwrights before Paul R.

Does that include the Outlying fells?

Quoted message said:

No. I have read the blurb and concluded I am not quite old enough for the Outlying Fells.

Following up my own post

For those not familiar with the book the front cover of The Outlying Fells includes "written
primarily for old age pensioners and others who can no longer climb the high fells ..." while on the
fly leaf there is a reference to "those walkers who, because of age or infirmity, must be content
with milder expeditions on lesser fells".

While I am undoubtedly well past my prime I refuse to accept any comparison with the
target audience.

--
Roger Looking North over the Aire Valley (and Marley Gasworks) to Rombolds Moor Top Posters
killfiled on sight

Chris proteus1@gmxDOTnet said:

Dewi said:

To the best of my knowledge we are all going to die, the big question is...when?

If you have a GPS with you, you might even know where. ;->

lol

Dewi,

(remove spin for email)

Roger Chapman said:

While I am undoubtedly well past my prime I refuse to accept any comparison with the target
audience.

Good for you Roger! You've got a long way to go yet before you need to start lowering your sights.

Paul
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