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OT: Constitutional Amendment discovered this week

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Road Cycling
Published
23 June 2007
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7 July 2007
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Kurgan Gringioni
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  1. RicodJour <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1182690955.832443.178290
    @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

    Quoted message said:

    I have enough righteous indignation to go around and see no reason to
    limit it based or race, creed, political affiliation or for starting a
    war under false pretenses that sucks down our money like it's going
    out of style and makes us look like [censored] that didn't learn a
    lesson from Vietnam.

    Well if money is the issue, then the $53 trillion in unfunded entitlements
    ought to get you "postal" seeing as a measly $400 billion or so has gotten
    your panties in a twist.

    The war cost is nothing compared to the new prescription drug benefit alone
    ($1.2 trillion). Nevermind the rest of the welfare programs like Social
    Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

    If you eliminated the entire military, it wouldn't come close to covering
    our future welfare obligations.

    So is this really about money? Or is it about something else?

    --

    Dan

    CNC Videos - <http://tinyurl.com/yzdt6d>

  2. Quoted message said:


    I mean, I'm still 100% behind giving the country away
    to our enemies, but which enemies? I have to make
    plans, you know. Jeez, I wish Pelosi and Rahm Emanuel
    would keep the >50% of Americans who support treason
    at the highest levels of government better informed.

    Yeah, it's hard to keep track of which enemies we're supposed to be
    freaking out about. I suggest that we all check behind our bushes and
    report back on who's hiding in there.

    I had a Mossad agent behind one, and the neighbor's damned Jack Russell
    Terrier behind another.

    I refuse to surrender to the Jack Russell Terriers!

  3. D Murphy said:

    RicodJour <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1182690955.832443.178290

    Quoted message said:

    I have enough righteous indignation to go around and see no reason to
    limit it based or race, creed, political affiliation or for starting a
    war under false pretenses that sucks down our money like it's going
    out of style and makes us look like [censored] that didn't learn a
    lesson from Vietnam.

    Well if money is the issue, then the $53 trillion in unfunded entitlements
    ought to get you "postal" seeing as a measly $400 billion or so has gotten
    your panties in a twist.

    Money isn't the only issue. Another major issue is people getting
    high school diplomas that can't read.

    Quoted message said:

    The war cost is nothing compared to the new prescription drug benefit alone
    ($1.2 trillion). Nevermind the rest of the welfare programs like Social
    Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

    If you eliminated the entire military, it wouldn't come close to covering
    our future welfare obligations.

    It's never so bad that a bad financial situation can't be made worse.
    The economics class you slept through would have taught you that. It
    would have told you that you can't tell how a person is doing by
    looking at how much they spend without looking at how much they earn.
    GED - you'll thank me.

    Quoted message said:

    So is this really about money? Or is it about something else?

    Oh, wait...you feel there's only enough room for one mistake to be
    made at a time?

    Sheesh.

    Social Security was started 70 years ago.
    Medicare and Medicaid was started 40 years ago.

    The war was started 4 years ago.

    In six years we went from the largest budget surplus to the largest
    deficit. You feel that's commendable?
    http://www.uuforum.org/deficit.htm Yeah, go red team!

    I don't give a nifong about the politics. You are supporting my
    opinion by bringing up those programs that people are too stupid to
    learn from history. Thanks for depressing me further, dumbass.

    How do you feel about this...?
    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/election/july-dec00/taxplans_10-17.html
    Particularly this part:
    "VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE: Almost 30 percent of his proposed tax cut
    goes only to Americans that make more than $1 million per year.
    GOVERNOR GEORGE W. BUSH: This is a man whose plan excludes 50 million
    Americans.
    VICE PRESIDENT AL GORE: Not so.
    GOVERNOR GEORGE W. BUSH: He said in his speech he wants to make sure
    the right people get tax relief. That's not the role of a president to
    decide right and wrong."

    The guy has THE WORD direct from God about stem cell research and
    abortion, but he can't decide right and wrong about taxes?

    Don't get me wrong. I don't like any politician. There are just some
    I hate less than others. I don't feel obligated to go easy on someone
    because they're in a particular political party, religion, race, or
    for what bike they ride. Well, that last part isn't exactly true. If
    you're riding a nice steel-tubed, smartly-lugged Italian classic bike,
    with full Campy, I'll probably go easy on you since at least then
    you'd be showing some good taste. I know - you don't ride one.

    R

  4. D Murphy said:

    RicodJour <[email hidden]> wrote in news:1182690955.832443.178290
    @p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:

    Quoted message said:

    I have enough righteous indignation to go around and see no reason to
    limit it based or race, creed, political affiliation or for starting a
    war under false pretenses that sucks down our money like it's going
    out of style and makes us look like [censored] that didn't learn a
    lesson from Vietnam.

    Well if money is the issue, then the $53 trillion in unfunded entitlements
    ought to get you "postal" seeing as a measly $400 billion or so has gotten
    your panties in a twist.

    The war cost is nothing compared to the new prescription drug benefit alone
    ($1.2 trillion). Nevermind the rest of the welfare programs like Social
    Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

    It's nothing? Liar. Your $1.2 trillion is the gross cost, not the net
    cost which is $720 billion, and it covers ten years.After a little
    more than four years of the Iraq War it has cost around $400 billion.
    So the Iraq War costs more, and that's not counting 3,559 dead US
    troops, but I guess they don't figure into your ledger.

    The annual cost of the Iraq War is higher than the cost of the
    prescription drug "benefit", which is nothing but a plan to skim money
    off the top of the US Treasury and give it to the big pharmaceuticals.
    Probably half of that $72 billion a year could be saved if the GOP had
    allowed the feds to negotiate prices for drugs.

    You're goddam right my panties are in a twist.

  5. RicodJour said:


    It's not about Democrat vs. Republican, nor liberal vs. conservative.
    It's about stupid vs. pragmatic. You've made it quite clear which
    camp you're in.

    Oh I get it... you haven't made your position equally clear ?!?!? <g>

    Quoted message said:


    I'd thought that your handle "gunner" was some reference to military
    service. Appears that I was mistaken and it indicates your
    predilection for a drink for pussies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunner_%28cocktail%29

    What brought that on ? All Conservatives are Pussies ?

    inquiring minds want to know

    Bill

  6. John Forrest Tomlinson said:

    On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:16:39 GMT, Gunner <[email hidden]>
    wrote:
    [about "getting away with" circumventing the Constitution]

    Quoted message said:

    Bush
    hasnt.

    What do you mean he hasn't?

    Scotus and other courts have ruled on the cases where he and his folks
    stepped over the line. I take it you dont read the newspapers? Its been
    there in 20 point type in the form of gloats.

    Scotus and other courts have also ruled on the cases where he hasnt,
    though the Libtards dont like what the rulings were. Tough [censored] on you.

    Or are you claiming the DNC and libtards in general have more standing
    than Scotus?

    Your egomania is noted and laughed at.

    Gunner

    "Abortion is self defense"
    Bob Kolker

  7. Fred Fredburger said:
    Gunner said:
    Quoted message said:

    > And its fasinating to watch those who gave Clinton a pass, or support,
    > now pissing and moaning about the other side of the aisle.
    It all depends on what crimes offend one's sensibilities. Some
    people get more upset with adultery, others by ignoring Constitutional
    rights.

    Ayup. Bush isnt a serial rapist though.

    Poor persuasive technique. Too grandiose, no attempt to support or
    justify. Comes off as simple name calling.

    Persuasive? Stating factual data is grandiose? Blink blink...or are
    you claiming the long list of rape victims that Clinton violated doesn't
    exist? Google is your friend.

    Quoted message said:


    Realize, I'm not asking you to support the claim, just pointing that it
    looks more like name calling than anything else. You might avoid doing
    this in the future, unless you just enjoy doing it.

    The sun comes up in the east. Do I really need to support that claim
    too?

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    And both tried to circumvent
    the Constitution. Big deal is though..Clinton got away with it. Bush
    hasnt.

    Actually Bush has. He'll never get in trouble for it and the reasons are
    interesting.

    Really? Cites?

    Quoted message said:


    Where Bush has broken the law and undermined the Constitution, he has
    generally had the support of the Senate and the House and the majority
    of the American people. A couple years later, when they've calmed down,
    they all point the finger at Bush. He's President and he did what he
    did, so it's fair I guess. But it's a bit problematic in that most of
    the people pointing their fingers NOW supported everything a few years
    ago. They can't take any action that involves assigning responsibility
    in a reasonable way without implicating themselves. So all they can do
    is whine and [censored] and hope that no one asks any difficult questions.


    Cites?

    Gunner asks in interest.

    Quoted message said:

    Clinton, on the other hand, did what he did in a back room with only one
    other person involved. So he was fair game to receive the full load of
    whatever righteous indignation we felt like dumping on him. Far more
    satisfying, really.

    "Abortion is self defense"
    Bob Kolker

  8. email hidden said:
    Gunner said:

    A whole bunch of conservatives have been complaining about Bush since he
    accomplished exactly what he promised when he ran for office. But
    considering there were no other viable choices....we got what we voted
    for. Least its not still called the Whitehouse, rather than Kremlin West
    as it would be if any of the Dems had won.

    Tovarisch,

    I thought the Democrats were for signing away the
    national security to Al Qaeda and putting the nation
    under Sharia law. Now you tell me that we're
    planning to give the country to Putin and the Kremlin
    and institute KGB surveillance of all right-thinking
    Americans? That's very secularist, it's a complete
    reversion to our Democratic platform during the
    Cold War.

    I mean, I'm still 100% behind giving the country away
    to our enemies, but which enemies? I have to make
    plans, you know. Jeez, I wish Pelosi and Rahm Emanuel
    would keep the >50% of Americans who support treason
    at the highest levels of government better informed.

    Das vidanya,
    Ben

    ROFLMAO!!!!

    Gunner

    "Abortion is self defense"
    Bob Kolker

  9. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Gunner said:

    Yup. When Bush's high crimes and misdemeaners rise to that of
    Clinton..the Right will be [censored].

    Hmm, "Clinton's high crimes and misdemeanors" - you are aware that the House held
    a lame duck session in December to impeach him, and that the (GOP controlled) Senate
    acquitted him? Secondly, you must be joking to consider that lying about an
    adulterous affair is worse than breaking the law (FISA) to spy on US citizens, or
    breaking long-standing treaties (the Geneva Conventions), or any of the things that
    President Cheney gets up to (i.e. claiming to be part of neither the executive or the
    legislative branches and being exempt from any and all oversight). Those being just
    the tip of the iceberg, of course.

    Quoted message said:

    In fact..the Right is already
    [censored] about Bush. Has been since we elected that moderate SOB. A
    whole bunch of conservatives have been complaining about Bush since he
    accomplished exactly what he promised when he ran for office. But
    considering there were no other viable choices....we got what we voted
    for. Least its not still called the Whitehouse, rather than Kremlin West
    as it would be if any of the Dems had won.

    Ah, the old "conservatism can never fail, it can only be failed" argument. Very
    nice. It's rather laughable to think that Bush is considered a "moderate" - if one
    looks at the things his admin. has gotten up to, he is nothing less than a radical.
    And his *is* the worst administration this country has ever seen.

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Never take a tenant with a monkey.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  10. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Gunner said:

    Ayup..we won in Vietnam, and lost the war in Congress and the media

    Pretty much the same today.

    Nice to see that you have no comprehension of the situation in either war. We may
    have won the *battle* in Iraq but we never stood a chance to win the war. To try to
    claim that the media or Congress had anything to do with that is beyond silly.
    Congress (controlled by the GOP these last few years, remember?) has given the admin.
    everything they demanded. it hasn't been the fault of the soldiers that the overall
    plan has been so disasterous. that goes to the top, and not the top of the military.
    The problems have always been with the civilian leadership of the Pentagon. Anyway,
    the war with Iraq was a huge mistake. It's the single worst foreign policy error this
    country has ever experienced.

    Quoted message said:

    We should have hung the leftists then and we should hang them now.

    A real American, I see.

    --
    tanx,
    Howard

    Never take a tenant with a monkey.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

  11. Gunner said:

    On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 17:02:52 -0700, RicodJour <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    The war was started 4 years ago.

    Quoted message said:

    In six years we went from the largest budget surplus to the largest
    deficit. You feel that's commendable?
    http://www.uuforum.org/deficit.htm Yeah, go red team!

    Heads up cupcake..there was NO budget surplus under clinton. Smoke and
    mirrors based on PROJECTED tax revenues which went under the bus when
    the Clinton Recession sprang up.

    The Fed, stocks, bonds, the economy, the mortgage rate on your trailer
    are all based on projections. Besides that, you're wrong about the
    budget surplus.

    Thanks for the reminder about the cupcake, though. I have an
    excellent chocolate cupcake from a phenomenal bakery hiding in the
    refrigerator.

    Quoted message said:

    http://arts.bev.net/roperldavid/politics/surplus.htm

    Unfookin' believable. You provide a seven year old link that doesn't
    even agree with what you're saying.

    Quoted message said:

    And Bush has reduced the deficit by nearly 50%.

    The only thing that has been reduced by 50% is my self-respect for
    bothering to address your buffoonery.
    I solemnly swear to not let it happen again. Feel free to have the
    last word all to yourself.

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.bizzyblog.com/2006/10/08/the-federal-budget-deficit-missio...

    Listen, stick with the insults - your links are painful and aren't
    helping your case. You [censored] about PROJECTED (your emphasis and I can
    picture the spittle on your monitor) and your link says things like:
    "If federal tax receipts continue to increase at 9% per year, and if
    federal spending and the Social Security surpluses continue to turn
    out as the CBO predicts, it will be fiscal nirvana - a honest-to-
    goodness REAL budget surplus will occur in fiscal 2011, less than five
    years from now."
    Wow, if that's not etched in stone I don't know what is.

    Quoted message said:

    But your lies or ignorance is noted.

    And laughed at.

    Being laughed at by a fool is high praise indeed. Thanks!

    R

  12. On Jun 25, 12:08 am, "William R. Mattil" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:
    RicodJour said:

    It's not about Democrat vs. Republican, nor liberal vs. conservative.
    It's about stupid vs. pragmatic. You've made it quite clear which
    camp you're in.

    Oh I get it... you haven't made your position equally clear ?!?!? <g>

    My position, my philosophy in life, is very simple. There are only
    two types of people in the world - [censored] and not-[censored]. Any
    given person can fall into either category at any given time. The
    trick is to try to spend substantially more time in the not-[censored]
    category. Jury's still out on you. 🙂

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I'd thought that your handle "gunner" was some reference to military
    service. Appears that I was mistaken and it indicates your
    predilection for a drink for pussies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunner_%28cocktail%29

    What brought that on ? All Conservatives are Pussies ?

    inquiring minds want to know

    Not at all. I was addressing a single...I don't know what Arsch is,
    but I was addressing him. It takes all types to make the wheels go
    round and there's a bell curve to everything including politics.
    That's a good thing. Taking pride in being way out on the end, and
    acting like an [censored] while doing it isn't a good thing.

    R

  13. On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:11:41 -0700, RicodJour <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    But your lies or ignorance is noted.

    And laughed at.

    Being laughed at by a fool is high praise indeed. Thanks!

    R

    Your denial is once again noted and held in contempt.

    Laugh laugh laugh

    Gunner

    "Abortion is self defense"
    Bob Kolker

  14. Howard Kveck said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Gunner said:

    Yup. When Bush's high crimes and misdemeaners rise to that of
    Clinton..the Right will be [censored].

    Hmm, "Clinton's high crimes and misdemeanors" - you are aware that the House held
    a lame duck session in December to impeach him, and that the (GOP controlled) Senate
    acquitted him? Secondly, you must be joking to consider that lying about an
    adulterous affair is worse than breaking the law (FISA) to spy on US citizens, or
    breaking long-standing treaties (the Geneva Conventions), or any of the things that
    President Cheney gets up to (i.e. claiming to be part of neither the executive or the
    legislative branches and being exempt from any and all oversight). Those being just
    the tip of the iceberg, of course.

    Somehow you seem to be missing Carnivore and Echelon and this list

    http://prorev.com/legacy.htm

    Then there are the at minimum..5 victims of this serial rapist you so
    ardently defend.....

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1571/is_n7_v14/ai_20301298

    And this...

    http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/crime2.html

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    In fact..the Right is already
    [censored] about Bush. Has been since we elected that moderate SOB. A
    whole bunch of conservatives have been complaining about Bush since he
    accomplished exactly what he promised when he ran for office. But
    considering there were no other viable choices....we got what we voted
    for. Least its not still called the Whitehouse, rather than Kremlin West
    as it would be if any of the Dems had won.

    Ah, the old "conservatism can never fail, it can only be failed" argument. Very
    nice. It's rather laughable to think that Bush is considered a "moderate" - if one
    looks at the things his admin. has gotten up to, he is nothing less than a radical.
    And his *is* the worst administration this country has ever seen.

    Snicker..compared to a Marxist...Bush is a "radical" but to
    conservatives, Bush is a moderate. So Comrade...your claim is noted and
    laughed at.

    The Clinton Legacy

    The Progressive Review

    This list was compiled at the end of the Clinton administration.

    Our Clinton Scandal Index

    RECORDS SET

    - The only president ever impeached on grounds of personal
    malfeasance
    - Most number of convictions and guilty pleas by friends and
    associates*
    - Most number of cabinet officials to come under criminal
    investigation
    - Most number of witnesses to flee country or refuse to
    testify
    - Most number of witnesses to die suddenly
    - First president sued for sexual harassment.
    - First president accused of rape.
    - First first lady to come under criminal investigation
    - Largest criminal plea agreement in an illegal campaign
    contribution case
    - First president to establish a legal defense fund.
    - First president to be held in contempt of court
    - Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions
    - Greatest amount of illegal campaign contributions from
    abroad
    - First president disbarred from the US Supreme Court and a
    state court

    * According to our best information, 40 government officials
    were indicted or convicted in the wake of Watergate. A reader computes
    that there was a total of 31 Reagan era convictions, including 14
    because of Iran-Contra and 16 in the Department of Housing & Urban
    Development scandal. 47 individuals and businesses associated with the
    Clinton machine were convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes with 33 of
    these occurring during the Clinton administration itself. There were in
    addition 61 indictments or misdemeanor charges. 14 persons were
    imprisoned. A key difference between the Clinton story and earlier ones
    was the number of criminals with whom he was associated before entering
    the White House.

    Using a far looser standard that included resignations,
    David R. Simon and D. Stanley Eitzen in Elite Deviance, say that 138
    appointees of the Reagan administration either resigned under an ethical
    cloud or were criminally indicted. Curiously Haynes Johnson uses the
    same figure but with a different standard in "Sleep-Walking Through
    History: America in the Reagan Years: "By the end of his term, 138
    administration officials had been convicted, had been indicted, or had
    been the subject of official investigations for official misconduct
    and/or criminal violations. In terms of number of officials involved,
    the record of his administration was the worst ever."

    STARR-RAY INVESTIGATION

    - Number of Starr-Ray investigation convictions or guilty
    pleas (including one governor, one associate attorney general and two
    Clinton business partners): 14
    - Number of Clinton Cabinet members who came under criminal
    investigation: 5
    - Number of Reagan cabinet members who came under criminal
    investigation: 4
    - Number of top officials jailed in the Teapot Dome Scandal:
    3

    CRIME STATS

    - Number of individuals and businesses associated with the
    Clinton machine who have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes:
    47
    - Number of these convictions during Clinton's presidency:
    33
    - Number of indictments/misdemeanor charges: 61
    - Number of congressional witnesses who have pleaded the
    Fifth Amendment, fled the country to avoid testifying, or (in the case
    of foreign witnesses) refused to be interviewed: 122

    SMALTZ INVESTIGATION

    - Guilty pleas and convictions obtained by Donald Smaltz in
    cases involving charges of bribery and fraud against former Agriculture
    Secretary Mike Espy and associated individuals and businesses: 15
    - Acquitted or overturned cases (including Espy): 6
    - Fines and penalties assessed: $11.5 million
    - Amount Tyson Food paid in fines and court costs: $6
    million

    CLINTON MACHINE CRIMES
    FOR WHICH CONVICTIONS
    HAVE BEEN OBTAINED

    Drug trafficking (3), racketeering, extortion, bribery (4),
    tax evasion, kickbacks, embezzlement (2), fraud (12), conspiracy (5),
    fraudulent loans, illegal gifts (1), illegal campaign contributions (5),
    money laundering (6), perjury, obstruction of justice.

    OTHER MATTERS INVESTIGATED BY SPECIAL PROSECUTORS
    AND CONGRESS, OR REPORTED IN THE MEDIA

    Bank and mail fraud, violations of campaign finance laws,
    illegal foreign campaign funding, improper exports of sensitive
    technology, physical violence and threats of violence, solicitation of
    perjury, intimidation of witnesses, bribery of witnesses, attempted
    intimidation of prosecutors, perjury before congressional committees,
    lying in statements to federal investigators and regulatory officials,
    flight of witnesses, obstruction of justice, bribery of cabinet members,
    real estate fraud, tax fraud, drug trafficking, failure to investigate
    drug trafficking, bribery of state officials, use of state police for
    personal purposes, exchange of promotions or benefits for sexual favors,
    using state police to provide false court testimony, laundering of drug
    money through a state agency, false reports by medical examiners and
    others investigating suspicious deaths, the firing of the RTC and FBI
    director when these agencies were investigating Clinton and his
    associates, failure to conduct autopsies in suspicious deaths, providing
    jobs in return for silence by witnesses, drug abuse, improper
    acquisition and use of 900 FBI files, improper futures trading, murder,
    sexual abuse of employees, false testimony before a federal judge,
    shredding of documents, withholding and concealment of subpoenaed
    documents, fabricated charges against (and improper firing of) White
    House employees, inviting drug traffickers, foreign agents and
    participants in organized crime to the White House.

    ARKANSAS ALTZHEIMER'S

    Number of times that Clinton figures who testified in court
    or before Congress said that they didn't remember, didn't know, or
    something similar.

    Bill Kennedy 116
    Harold Ickes 148
    Ricki Seidman 160
    Bruce Lindsey 161
    Bill Burton 191
    Mark Gearan 221
    Mack McLarty 233
    Neil Egglseston 250
    Hillary Clinton 250
    John Podesta 264
    Jennifer O'Connor 343
    Dwight Holton 348
    Patsy Thomasson 420
    Jeff Eller 697

    FROM THE WASHINGTON TIMES: In the portions of President
    Clinton's Jan. 17 deposition that have been made public in the Paula
    Jones case, his memory failed him 267 times. This is a list of his
    answers and how many times he gave each one.

    I don't remember - 71
    I don't know - 62
    I'm not sure - 17
    I have no idea - 10
    I don't believe so - 9
    I don't recall - 8
    I don't think so - 8
    I don't have any specific recollection - 6
    I have no recollection - 4
    Not to my knowledge - 4
    I just don't remember - 4
    I don't believe - 4
    I have no specific recollection - 3
    I might have - 3
    I don't have any recollection of that - 2 I don't have a
    specific memory - 2
    I don't have any memory of that - 2
    I just can't say - 2
    I have no direct knowledge of that - 2
    I don't have any idea - 2
    Not that I recall - 2
    I don't believe I did - 2
    I can't remember - 2
    I can't say - 2
    I do not remember doing so - 2
    Not that I remember - 2
    I'm not aware - 1
    I honestly don't know - 1
    I don't believe that I did - 1
    I'm fairly sure - 1
    I have no other recollection - 1
    I'm not positive - 1
    I certainly don't think so - 1
    I don't really remember - 1
    I would have no way of remembering that - 1
    That's what I believe happened - 1
    To my knowledge, no - 1
    To the best of my knowledge - 1
    To the best of my memory - 1
    I honestly don't recall - 1
    I honestly don't remember - 1
    That's all I know - 1
    I don't have an independent recollection of that - 1
    I don't actually have an independent memory of that - 1
    As far as I know - 1
    I don't believe I ever did that - 1
    That's all I know about that - 1
    I'm just not sure - 1
    Nothing that I remember - 1
    I simply don't know - 1
    I would have no idea - 1
    I don't know anything about that - 1
    I don't have any direct knowledge of that - 1
    I just don't know - 1
    I really don't know - 1
    I can't deny that, I just -- I have no memory of that at all
    - 1

    THE CLINTON LEGACY:
    LONELY HONOR

    Here are some of the all too rare public officials,
    reporters, and others who spoke truth to the dismally corrupt power of
    Bill and Hill Clinton's political machine -- some at risk to their
    careers, others at risk to their lives. A few points to note:

    - Those corporatist media reporters who attempted to report
    the story often found themselves muzzled; some even lost their jobs. The
    only major dailies that consistently handled the story well were the
    Wall Street Journal and the Washington Times.

    - Nobody on this list has gotten rich and many you may not
    have even heard of. Taking on the Clintons typically has not been a
    happy or rewarding experience. At least ten reporters have been fired,
    transferred off their beats, resigned, or otherwise gotten into trouble
    because of their work on the scandals. Whistleblowing is even less
    appreciated within the government. One study of whistleblowers found
    that 232 out of 233 them reported suffering retaliation; another study
    found reprisals in about 95% of cases.

    - Contrary to the popular impression, the politics of those
    listed ranges from the left to the right, and from the ideological to
    the independent.

    PUBLIC OFFICIALS

    MIGUEL RODRIGUEZ was a prosecutor on the staff of Kenneth
    Starr. His attempts to uncover the truth in the Vincent Foster death
    case were repeatedly foiled and he was the subject of planted stories
    undermining his credibility and implying that he was unstable. Rodriguez
    eventually resigned.

    JEAN DUFFEY: Head of a joint federal-county drug task force
    in Arkansas. Her first instructions from her boss: "Jean, you are not to
    use the drug task force to investigate any public official." Duffey's
    work, however, led deep into the heart of the Dixie Mafia, including
    members of the Clinton machine and the investigation of the so-called
    "train deaths." Ambrose Evans-Pritchard reports that when she produced a
    star witness who could testify to Clinton's involvement with cocaine,
    the local prosecuting attorney, Dan Harmon issued a subpoena for all the
    task force records, including "the incriminating files on his own
    activities. If Duffey had complied it would have exposed 30 witnesses
    and her confidential informants to violent retributions. She refused."
    Harmon issued a warrant for her arrest and friendly cops told her that
    there was a $50,000 price on her head. She eventually fled to Texas. The
    once-untouchable Harmon was later convicted of racketeering, extortion
    and drug dealing.

    BILL DUNCAN: An IRS investigator in Arkansas who drafted
    some 30 federal indictments of Arkansas figures on money laundering and
    other charges. Clinton biographer Roger Morris quotes a source who
    reviewed the evidence: "Those indictments were a real slam dunk if there
    ever was one." The cases were suppressed, many in the name of "national
    security." Duncan was never called to testify. Other IRS agents and
    state police disavowed Duncan and turned on him. Said one source,
    "Somebody outside ordered it shut down and the walls went up."

    RUSSELL WELCH: An Arkansas state police detective working
    with Duncan. Welch developed a 35-volume, 3,000 page archive on drug and
    money laundering operations at Mena. His investigation was so
    compromised that a high state police official even let one of the
    targets of the probe look through the file. At one point, Welch was
    sprayed in the face with poison, later identified by the Center for
    Disease Control as anthrax. He would write in his diary, "I feel like I
    live in Russia, waiting for the secret police to pounce down. A
    government has gotten out of control. Men find themselves in positions
    of power and suddenly crimes become legal." Welch is no longer with the
    state police.

    DAN SMALTZ: Smaltz did an outstanding job investigating and
    prosecuting charges involving illegal payoffs to Agriculture Secretary
    Mike Espy, yet was treated with disparaging and highly inaccurate
    reporting by the likes of the David Broder and the NY Times. Espy was
    acquitted under a law that made it necessary to not only prove that he
    accepted gratuities but that he did something specific in return. On the
    other hand, Tyson Foods copped a plea in the same case, paying $6
    million in fines and serving four years' probation. The charge: that
    Tyson had illegally offered Espy $12,000 in airplane rides, football
    tickets and other payoffs. In the Espy investigation, Smaltz obtained 15
    convictions and collected over $11 million in fines and civil penalties.
    Offenses for which convictions were obtained included false statements,
    concealing money from prohibited sources, illegal gratuities, illegal
    contributions, falsifying records, interstate transportation of stolen
    property, money laundering, and illegal receipt of USDA subsidies.
    Incidentally, Janet Reno blocked Smaltz from pursuing leads aimed at
    allegations of major drug trafficking in Arkansas and payoffs to the
    then governor of the state, WJ Clinton. Espy had become Ag secretary
    only after being flown to Arkansas to get the approval of chicken king
    Don Tyson.

    DAVID SCHIPPERS was House impeachment counsel and a Chicago
    Democrat. He did a highly creditable job but since he didn't fit the
    right-wing conspiracy theory, the Clintonista media downplayed his work.
    Thus most Americans don't know that he told NewsMax, "Let me tell you,
    if we had a chance to put on a case, I would have put live witnesses
    before the committee. But the House leadership, and I'm not talking
    about Henry Hyde, they just killed us as far as time was concerned. I
    begged them to let me take it into this year. Then I screamed for
    witnesses before the Senate. But there was nothing anybody could do to
    get those Senators to show any courage. They told us essentially, you're
    not going to get 67 votes so why are you wasting our time." Schippers
    also said that while a number of representatives looked at additional
    evidence kept under seal in a nearby House building, not a single
    senator did.

    JOHN CLARKE: When Patrick Knowlton stopped to relieve
    himself in Ft. Marcy Park 70 minutes before the discovery of Vince
    Foster's body, he saw things that got him into deep trouble. His
    interview statements were falsified and prior to testifying he claims he
    was overtly harassed by more than a score of men in a classic witness
    intimidation technique. In some cases there were witnesses. John Clarke
    has been his dogged lawyer in the witness intimidation case that has
    been largely ignored by the media, even when the three-judge panel
    overseeing the Starr investigation permitted Knowlton to append a 20
    page addendum to the Starr Report.

    OTHER

    THE ARKANSAS COMMITTEE: What would later be known as the
    Vast Right Wing Conspiracy actually began on the left - as a group of
    progressive students at the University of Arkansas had formed the
    Arkansas Committee to look into Mena, drugs, money laundering, and
    Arkansas politics. This committee was the source of some of the
    important early Clinton stories including those published in the
    Progressive Review.

    CLINTON ADMINISTRATION SCANDALS E-LIST: Moderated by Ray
    Heizer, this list has been subject to all the idiosyncrasies of Internet
    bulletin boards, but it has nonetheless proved invaluable to researchers
    and journalists.

    JOURNALISTS

    JERRY SEPER of the Washington Times was far and away the
    best beat reporter of the story, handling it week after week in the best
    tradition of investigative journalism. If other reporters had followed
    Seper's lead, the history of the Clintons' machine might have been quite
    different.

    AMBROSE EVANS-PRITCHARD of the London Telegraph did a
    remarkable job of digging into some of the seamiest tales from Arkansas
    and the Clinton past. Other early arrivals on the scene were Alexander
    Cockburn and Jeff Gerth.

    CHRISTOPHER RUDDY, among other fine reports on the Clinton
    scandals, did the best job laying out the facts in the Vince Foster
    death case.

    ROGER MORRIS AND SALLY DENTON wrote a major expose of events
    at Mena, but at the last moment the Washington Post's brass ordered the
    story killed. It was published by Penthouse and later included in
    Morris' "Partners in Power," the best biography of the Clintons.

    OTHERS who helped get parts of the story out included
    reporters Philip Weiss, Carl Limbacher, Wes Phelan, David Bresnahan,
    William Sammon, Liza Myers, Mara Leveritt, Matt Drudge, Jim Ridgeway,
    Nat Hentoff, Michael Isikoff, Christopher Hitchens, and Michael Kelly.
    Also independent investigator Hugh Sprunt and former White House FBI
    agent Gary Aldrich.

    SAM SMITH of the Progressive Review wrote the first book
    (Shadows of Hope, University of Indiana Press, 1994) deconstructing the
    Clinton myth and the Review developed a major database on the topic.

    The Clintons, to adapt a line from Dr. Johnson, were not
    only corrupt, they were the cause of corruption in others. Seldom in
    America have so many come to excuse so much mendacity and malfeasance as
    during the Clinton years.

    THE CLINTON LEGACY
    The Hidden Election

    USA Today calls it "the hidden election," in which nearly
    7,000 state legislative seats are decided with only minimal media and
    public attention. The paper took brief notice because this is the year
    the state legislatures perform their most important national function:
    drawing revised congressional districts based on the most recent census.

    But there's another important national story here: further
    evidence of the disaster that Bill Clinton has been for the Democratic
    Party. According to the National Conference of State Legislatures,
    Democrats held a 1,542 seat lead in the state bodies in 1990. As of last
    November that lead had shrunk to 288. That's a loss of over 1,200 state
    legislative seats, nearly all of them under Clinton. Across the US, the
    Democrats control only 65 more state senate seats than the Republicans.

    Further, in 1992, the Democrats controlled 17 more state
    legislatures than the Republicans. After November, the Republicans
    control one more than the Democrats. Not only is this a loss of 9
    legislatures under Clinton, but it is the first time since 1954 that the
    GOP has controlled more state legislatures than the Democrats (they tied
    in 1968).

    Here's what happened to the Democrats under Clinton, based
    on our latest figures:

    - GOP seats gained in House since Clinton became president:
    48
    - GOP seats gained in Senate since Clinton became president:
    8
    - GOP governorships gained since Clinton became president:
    11
    - GOP state legislative seats gained since Clinton became
    president: 1,254
    as of 1998
    - State legislatures taken over by GOP since Clinton became
    president: 9
    - Democrat officeholders who have become Republicans since
    Clinton became
    president: 439 as of 1998
    - Republican officeholders who have become Democrats since
    Clinton became president: 3

    NATIONAL CONF OF STATE LEGISLATURES
    http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legman/elect/hstptyct.htm
    http://www.ncsl.org/programs/legman/elect/demshare2000.htm

    And lets not forget his war crimes.....

    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/International_War_Crimes/ClintonWarCriminal_Herman.html

    and this.....

    Clinton’s Worst Crimes
    By David L. Harten January 26, 2001

    President Clinton was impeached for the wrong crimes. Unlike most
    Republicans, I never thought Clinton should have been impeached for his
    affair with Monica Lewinsky. Yes, it was immoral, but as my wife likes
    to say, Americans elected him to be President, not Pope.

    At the beginning of the impeachment drive, I agreed with those who
    argued, "Nobody died because of Clinton’s extramarital affair." Surely,
    I thought, other Presidents had done much worse actions that had cost
    people’s lives. However, Clinton’s later acts to distract Americans from
    his extramarital affair were truly criminal and impeachable, causing
    thousands, of deaths. I agree with the essay "The Blood on Bill
    Clinton's Hands," except for one major shortcoming: OSC left out the
    most serious, and most blatant, of Clinton's war crimes.

    The people of Serbia, Kosovo, the Sudan, Pakistan, and Afghanistan are
    not the only or most obvious victims of Clinton's affair with Monica
    Lewinsky. The day before the House impeachment vote, Clinton bombed
    Iraq, delaying the impeachment vote. He continued the bombing throughout
    all the days of the impeachment vote. Only an hour or two after the
    House impeachment vote ended, Clinton ended the bombing, saying, "We
    have achieved our objectives." Of course, because the objective was to
    delay and distract from the impeachment vote! In all other respects, the
    bombing hurt U.S. and international interests.

    Clinton gave several excuses for bombing Iraq on the eve of the
    impeachment vote, especially the (bogus, but unquestioned) claim that
    Iraq had stopped cooperating with UNSCOM inspectors. In reality, Iraq’s
    cooperation with UNSCOM inspectors had actually been increasing, despite
    U.S. attempts to provoke a confrontation. However, knowing the
    impeachment schedule, Clinton had directed UNSCOM chief Richard Butler
    to write a report that Iraq was not cooperating. Even Scott Ritter, the
    former chief UNSCOM weapons inspector who quit because he thought the
    weapons inspectors were not tough enough, said that the White House had
    been on the phone with UNSCOM "shaping" the report to make sure it would
    justify bombing Iraq during the impeachment trial.

    Clinton actually used the Muslim holy month of Ramadan as an excuse for
    the timing of the bombing. This may have fooled the American media, but
    didn't fool Muslims, as Clinton continued the bombing even after Ramadan
    had started (but halted the bombing as soon as the impeachment vote
    ended).

    Sure, Clinton said he had unanimous agreement from his national security
    advisers to bomb Iraq. So what? No matter what day he asked his national
    security advisers, they would always agree to bomb Iraq, so why ask on
    that particular day, a day before the impeachment vote?

    Fact: the UNSCOM inspectors were not kicked out of Iraq in December 1998
    by Saddam -- President Clinton had UNSCOM chief Richard Butler pull out
    the UN inspectors so he could bomb. United Nations Secretary General
    Kofi Annan was understandably angry that Clinton ordered out not just
    the U.S. inspectors, but all United Nations inspectors (which he had no
    authority to do).

    Fact: ever since Bill Clinton ordered the UNSCOM inspectors out of Iraq
    so he could bomb (the day before the impeachment vote), there have been
    no UN weapons inspectors in Iraq. So when Clinton said (as soon as the
    impeachment vote ended), "We have achieved our objectives," was one of
    those objectives to permanently remove weapons inspectors from Iraq?

    Fact: days before the UNSCOM report came out, Clinton was in Israel,
    already telling Prime Minister Netanyahu that he was expecting a
    negative UNSCOM report, and that he would soon be bombing Iraq. Clinton
    knew the contents ahead of time because he was "shaping" that report.

    Fact: because of Clinton's December 1998 bombing, Iraq began challenging
    the U.S. and British "no-fly zones," which they had not been doing
    before. The risk to U.S. pilots is negligible (no U.S. plane has ever
    been hit), but it has given the U.S. and Britain an excuse for nearly
    daily bombing of Iraq (not just radar sites, but cities, towns,
    shepherd's camps, etc.). Since December 1998, this illegal bombing has
    killed about two hundred Iraqis, including shepherds with their flocks,
    families in their houses, and small children, and injured many more. It
    helps to put faces on the victims. I saw a photo of a cute, smiling
    little girl named Isra, from the Abu-Khasib neighborhood of Basra, who
    lost her right arm when a U.S. IGM-130 missile hit her neighborhood at
    10:10 AM, January 25, 1999 (for a picture of her, see
    http://www.vitw.org/airwar.html). This ongoing bombing would not be
    happening except for Clinton’s attempt to distract from the impeachment
    vote.

    Maybe Americans don't care about the hundreds of Iraqis Clinton killed
    during the impeachment trial bombings of Iraq, and the scores of Iraqi
    civilians (and sheep) killed during the almost daily bombings of Iraq in
    the two years since then. Most Americans, incredibly enough, don't even
    know we're still at war, that we've been bombing Iraq every other day
    for the last two years!

    Okay, for the sake of argument, say we can forgive Clinton for killing a
    few hundred or thousand Iraqis with bombs.

    Bombs are merciful compared to what Clinton has done to the innocent
    children of Iraq, the most vulnerable of all, by maintaining ten years
    of the harshest sanctions in the history of mankind, begun on August 6,
    1990, and kept in place at the insistence of the United States. On May
    12, 1996, television’s "Sixty Minutes" interviewed Madeleine Albright
    (then U.S. ambassador to the UN, now Secretary of State). Leslie Stahl
    asked Albright, "We have heard half a million children have died [from
    economic sanctions in Iraq]. That's more children than died in
    Hiroshima. Is the price worth it?"

    Albright replied, "I think this is a very hard choice. But the price, we
    think, is worth it."

    I believe there is a special place in hell reserved for Madeleine
    Albright.

    Yes, even four and a half years ago, 500,000 Iraqi children had already
    died as a direct result of economic sanctions. Over one million Iraqi
    civilians have died from the sanctions, mostly children under age five.
    Those are not Iraqi figures -- those figures come from Unicef, the World
    Health Organization, the UN’s Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO),
    the UN’s Department of Humanitarian Affairs, and other international
    sources. The "oil-for-food" program is so ineffectual that two
    consecutive UN directors of that program (Denis Haliday and Hans Von
    Sponeck) resigned, out of protest that they were presiding over a
    humanitarian disaster which can only be called genocide. They were UN
    Assistant Secretaries General, the highest ranking UN personnel ever to
    resign for reasons of conscience. Now Denis Haliday and Hans Von Sponeck
    are touring America and other countries, pleading for an end to the
    sanctions on Iraq.

    Embargoes during peacetime are tough enough, but after a devastating
    war, they are disastrous. During the Gulf War, U.S. forces deliberately
    targeted Iraqi water treatment plants, dams, and electric generating
    facilities (in violation of the Geneva Convention), later admitting they
    did it in order to cause disease (which was biological warfare by the
    United States). Iraq has not been allowed to rebuild its water treatment
    plants since then. Chlorine, and water chlorinators, are prohibited
    under sanctions. Disease is at epidemic levels, especially among babies
    and children under five. Nobel Peace prize winners have visited Iraq and
    described the sanctions as genocide. Iraqi children are dying from
    starvation, malnutrition, tainted water, lack of basic medicines, and
    diseases that were once rare but now epidemic.

    Iraqis are also suffering horrible birth defects and cancers caused by
    the 350 tons of depleted uranium (DU) fired into Iraq by U.S. forces
    during the 1991 Gulf War. DU, used for armor-piercing shells, becomes on
    impact an dust that drifts on the desert winds until inhaled. DU is not
    only toxic, but has a radioactive half-life in the billions of years.

    U.S. sanctions law is so tough that even shipping food or medicine to
    Iraq is punishable by a one million dollar fine and 12 years in prison.
    I have personally tried to send baby formula, but the U.S. post office
    refuses, due to sanctions. Many items are specifically banned (pencils,
    books including medical textbooks, chlorine, etc.), while all other
    items are prohibited without a U.S. Treasury Department license that is
    almost impossible to obtain.

    Fifty-five years ago, people asked, "Where were the good Germans? Why
    didn't they act to prevent the Holocaust?" History will judge America
    the same way over the current genocide against Iraqi civilians, the
    genocide by sanctions. My conscience cannot let me keep silent about
    this. People are people, and children are children. Even if one hates
    Muslims (which is hardly a Christian attitude), one million Christians
    also live in Iraq.

    Most major religious groups have condemned the sanctions, including
    Baptists, Catholics, Churches of Christ, Episcopalians, Lutherans,
    Mennonites, Methodists, Presbyterians, Quakers, Unitarians, the National
    Council of Churches, the World Council of Churches, etc. Leaders of 24
    Christian denominations, including those mentioned above, signed a
    September 27, 1999 letter to President Clinton urging him to end the
    economic sanctions on Iraq.* Conspicuously absent from the list,
    unfortunately, is the church that OSC and I belong to, the Mormons (my
    branch president told me the issue is too political -- as if genocide
    isn't always political).

    Contrary to Clinton Administration propaganda, the small amount of food
    and medicines that are allowed into Iraq under the "oil-for-food"
    program (UN Res. 986) are distributed extremely efficiently by the Iraqi
    government. The U.S. constantly places long holds on shipments of food
    and medicine, or refusing to allow shipment of essential items
    altogether. Food and medicines spoil because of lack of refrigeration,
    or rot in warehouses because the forklifts and trucks to transport them
    are banned by sanctions. An American who visited an Iraqi hospital that
    lacked basic medicines and equipment due to sanctions said, "I know what
    this place is now. It's a death row for children." The doctors try their
    best, but there is little they can do without medicine, equipment,
    electricity, or even medical textbooks.

    Those who agree with sanctions on Iraq act as if only one person lives
    there, Saddam Hussein. Yes, Saddam is a cruel dictator who does not
    allow freedom of speech and has executed hundreds of his political
    opponents, but that number pales compared to the million or more the
    Clinton administration has killed through sanctions. Admittedly, Saddam
    is a brutal and cruel dictator (although he was just as brutal and cruel
    when the U.S. was arming him and supporting him, under Reagan and Bush,
    while he gassed his people with U.S. support). But if he is as brutal a
    dictator as everyone agrees, does it make any sense to starve his people
    to try to influence him? If (as the Clinton Administration says) Saddam
    does not care about his people, how will our starving them influence
    him?

    When I spoke about Iraq in my church, tears came to my eyes telling of
    the father who had to hold his young daughter while her leg was sawed
    off without anesthesia, because of sanctions. Thinking of my own young
    son, I also cried describing the mother who, unable to sufficiently
    breastfeed her baby due to her own malnourishment (the meager food
    ration under sanctions has no fruits, vegetables, meat, or dairy), gave
    him sugar water, but the water was polluted. The baby developed
    diarrhea, and for lack of a five dollar medicine, he died. I know my own
    young son and unborn baby could never survive in Iraq under UN
    sanctions, which have been kept in place for over ten years at the
    insistence of the U.S. We are killing an entire generation, body and
    soul, destroying a civilization.

    Saddam is not the only person who lives in Iraq, any more than Clinton
    is the only person in America! Over one million innocent Iraqis, mostly
    children under five, have died miserable deaths simply because Clinton
    and Albright refuse to admit that sanctions are a mistake, especially
    sanctions applied after a country's infrastructure has been destroyed
    through the most destructive bombing in history.

    "What about weapons of mass destruction?" some may ask. Ex-weapons
    inspector Scott Ritter wrote in the Boston Globe (3/9/00) that, "...from
    a qualitative standpoint, Iraq has in fact been disarmed... The
    chemical, biological, nuclear and long-range ballistic missile programs
    that were a real threat in 1991 had, by 1998, been destroyed or rendered
    harmless." The true weapons of mass destruction are the sanctions
    themselves. It is ironic that sanctions began on August 6, 1990, the
    45th anniversary of the Hiroshima atomic bombing, because it would be
    more humane for the U.S. to drop a Hiroshima-sized atomic bomb on Iraq
    every year than to continue the sanctions. In fact, as an article in the
    May/June 1999 issue of Foreign Affairs shows, the sanctions against Iraq
    have killed more people than all "weapons of mass destruction" in
    history, combined! The same UN resolution used to justify sanctions on
    Iraq also declared the Middle East a nuclear-free zone. Israel is in
    blatant violation of that same resolution, yet we do not starve the
    Israeli people to coerce their leader (nor should we).

    There is no doubt that sanctions actually strengthen Saddam Hussein
    politically. Sanctions strengthen Saddam's grip on Iraq and weaken all
    opposition, as the struggle to survive, to keep one's children alive,
    supercedes all thought of rebellion. Sanctions also cause
    anti-Americanism, as the Arab world knows what we are doing to Iraq,
    killing over a million innocent people to get revenge on their leader.

    The United States used international law to justify the 1991 Gulf War.
    However, the U.S. and British "no-fly zones" and the continuing bombing
    of Iraq violate international law. The sanctions themselves violate
    international law as enshrined in the Genocide Convention (Article II,
    "…deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to
    bring its physical destruction, in whole or in part"😉, the Geneva
    Conventions (Geneva Protocol 1, Article 54 outlaws "starvation of
    civilians as a method of warfare"😉, the World Declaration on Nutrition
    ("food must not be used as a tool for political pressure"😉, and the
    Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    Unfortunately, the incoming Bush administration plans to continue the
    Clinton administration’s genocidal Iraq policy. Both George W. Bush and
    his Secretary of State, Colin Powell, have said they think the sanctions
    should actually be tightened.

    I knew I had to speak out against sanctions when I read about Bert
    Sacks, an American Jew. Sacks was returning from a trip to deliver
    medicine to Iraqis (in violation of U.S. law), when he took a side trip
    to visit Auschwitz, a place of special importance to him as a Jew. More
    than one million Jews died at Auschwitz, comparable to the number of
    Iraqi civilians killed by sanctions. Sacks calls the sanctions an
    Auschwitz in progress. Like Sacks, I do not want to emulate the "good
    Germans," who stayed silent during the Holocaust.

    In the name of Jesus Christ, who died for all of us, we must not keep
    silent about the innocent children suffering in Iraq. Use your voices to
    save some of the children; become "voices in the wilderness," as the
    Chicago-based anti-sanctions group is named. In the name of God, speak
    out, everyone who reads these words. To remain silent in the face of
    genocide committed by one's own government is tantamount to being
    complicit, a collaborator. In the U.S., unlike Nazi Germany, we can
    speak out against our government without fear of death. It is our duty
    to due so, for if we don't, God have mercy on our souls. We cannot wait,
    for every day, 150 to 200 more children die from sanctions in Iraq.

    Some web sites to visit for more information:

    http://saveageneration.org/thecrisis/

    http://www.afsc.org/conscience/Default.htm

    http://www.vitw.org

    *The September 27, 1999 letter to President Clinton urging an end to the
    Iraqi embargo was signed by the following religious leaders:

    The Right Reverend Craig B. Anderson, President, NCCCUSA

    The Reverend George H. Anderson, Presiding Bishop, The Evangelical
    Lutheran Church in America

    Mathews Mar Barnabas, Metropolitan of the American Diocese of the
    Malankara Orthodox Church (India)

    Archbishop Khajag Barsamian, Primate, Diocese of the Armenian Church of
    America

    John A. Buehrens, President, Unitarian Universalist Association

    The Rev. Joan Brown Campbell, General Secretary, The National Council of
    the Churches of Christ in the USA

    Bishop Joseph A. Fiorenza, President, National Conference of Catholic
    Bishops

    Brother Stephen Glodek, SM, President, Catholic Conference of Major
    Superiors of Men's Institutes

    Wesley Granberg-Michaelson, General Secretary, Reformed Church of
    America

    The Most Reverend Frank T. Griswold, Presiding Bishop and Primate,
    Episcopal Church, USA

    William Boyd Grove, Ecumenical Officer, United Methodist Council of
    Bishops

    Richard L. Hamm, General Minister and President, The Christian Church
    Disciples of Christ in the U.S. and Canada

    Archbishop Cyril Aphrem Karim, Syrian Orthodox Church of Antioch

    Clifton Kirkpatrick, Stated Clerk of the General Assembly, Presbyterian
    Church (U.S.A.)

    Dr. Ronald J.R. Mathies, Executive Director, Mennonite Central Committee

    Johan Maurer, General Secretary, Friends United Meeting

    Kara Newell, Executive Director, American Friends Service Committee

    Metropolitan Philip Saliba, Primate, Antiochian Orthodox Christian
    Archdiocese of North America

    Paul H. Sherry, President United Church of Christ

    Metropolitan Theodosius, Primate, Orthodox Church in America

    The Right Reverend Dr. Zacharias Mar Theophilus, Bishop, Mar Thomas
    Church

    Joe Volk, Executive Secretary, Friends Committee on National Legislation

    Bishop Vsevolod, Ukrainian Orthodox Church of USA

    The Rev. Dr. Daniel Weiss, General Secretary, American Baptist Church

    Footnote: In answer to a request from Ornery, the author has provided
    the following additional information:

    You said you wanted proof of the ongoing bombing, so that’s what I’ve
    concentrated on here, even though the bombing of Iraq since 1998 has
    only killed a few hundred people (Iraq claims 311 civilians killed and
    927 wounded by these air attacks, according to Reuters 12/26/00), while
    sanctions have killed over a million since 1990, mostly children under
    age five. I already had mentioned some sources on sanctions in my
    essay, such as the 60 Minutes interview with Madeleine Albright on
    5/12/96, the Foreign Affairs article May/June 1999 "Sanctions of Mass
    Destruction," and a 3/9/00 Boston Globe article.

    As for depleted uranium (DU), I said its half life is in the billions of
    years, but to be more exact, it has a half-life of 4.5 billion years
    (see Christian Science Monitor 1/11/01 "Bullet Debate: Answers in Iraq?"
    and Christian Science Monitor 4/29/99 special report, "The Trail of a
    Bullet"😉. When I was a US Army Armor officer, I had a classified
    briefing in 1985 on tank munitions including DU, but today’s
    unclassified reports have disclosed DU’s dangers, so there is no need to
    reveal my classified briefing.

    I felt like I was being asked to prove that cigarette smoking causes
    cancer, because if the media did their job, what the US is doing to Iraq
    should be common knowledge. I’ve been involved with Iraq issues since
    the mid 1990s, so it always amazes me how little other Americans know
    about Iraq. I have hundreds of pages of material, and there is more in
    the news every week (but not on the front page). To quote Tom Jackson
    of Voices in the Wilderness, "Anyone who has been watching can tell you
    that the bombings happen at least a couple of times per week."

    Unfortunately, TV news only seems to cover one international story a
    year. Last year if it didn’t involve Elian Gonzalez, it didn’t make the
    news, and in 1999, the story was Kosovo. "Perhaps there will also be a
    day when journalists realize their deafening silence was a form of
    complicity" . Most US newspapers feel that if they do one Iraq story a
    year, they’ve covered the issue (an exception is the Seattle
    Post-Intelligencer, which last week, January 17, 2001, ran seven
    articles about Iraq, ).

    You wrote, "The main [claim] that I think will concern a lot of people
    is the claim that we are bombing Iraq every other day. That seems very
    impossible not to be reported in any media." Well, it is reported, but
    not prominently. Newspaper articles frequently call the ongoing bombing
    of Iraq "The forgotten war."

    As of this Tuesday 1/23/01, the US has already bombed Iraq at least
    twice in the last four days (Saturday 1/20/01 in the South, killing six
    civilians, and Monday 1/22/01 in both the North and South). Both
    attacks were reported by the AP and Reuters. Saturday’s was also
    reported by the BBC, and by the New York Times on 1/22/01. Unfortunately
    smaller papers don’t report these "routine" bombings.

    This week’s January 21, 2001 BBC News online article, "It was the
    highest death toll in several months of raids," reads in part: "People
    in southern Iraq lashed out against the United States and Britain as
    they buried six people killed in an Allied air strike the day before.
    It is the highest death toll in several months of patrols through air
    exclusion zones set up by the US and Britain to protect Iraqi opposition
    groups from possible government attacks… Iraq does not recognize the
    exclusion zones and says Western air strikes have killed more than 300
    civilians in two years… Witnesses said the raids struck a cattle-feed
    depot run by the agriculture ministry 120 km south of Samawa, near the
    Iraqi-Saudi border. They said six of the employees at the warehouse
    were killed and three slightly injured… A US statement said Allied
    planes had attacked Iraq's radar systems and anti-aircraft artillery but
    made no mention of civilian casualties…The air exclusion zones were set
    up to protect Shi'a in the south and Kurds in the north from possible
    government attacks, but they are not backed by a UN resolution or
    recognized by Iraq. Western warplanes have frequently bombed targets
    since Baghdad started resisting the patrols two years ago. Recently a
    British newspaper reported that London was rethinking its policy because
    of the high number of civilian casualties -- a claim the Foreign Office
    denied. The US and Britain accuse Iraq of using civilian areas as a
    cover for its anti-aircraft guns. Reports from the area 24 hours after
    the attack said no military units were visible."

    This week’s January 22, 2001 New York Times article, "Iraq Rebuilt
    Weapons Factories, Officials Say" reads in part: "WASHINGTON, Jan. 21
    ....American and British planes continue to patrol the ‘no-flight’ zones
    over northern and southern Iraq. Such patrols are routinely fired upon;
    indeed, Iraq launched a surface-to-air missile at one only hours before
    Mr. Bush took office on Saturday, prompting American jets to respond by
    striking antiaircraft batteries and a radar site. Such strikes help
    ratchet up Iraqi anger at the United States; today, the Iraqis said the
    American strikes killed six civilians in Samawa, an assertion that
    American military officials did not immediately dispute, while noting
    that they had not intended to strike civilian targets..." NY Times.

    Since December 1998, US and British jets have flown more than as many
    combat missions as NATO pilots did during the 78 days of bombing
    Yugoslavia, flying 280,000 sorties (Pentagon sources cited in the
    Washington Post, June 16, 2000) and dropping over 1,650 bombs on Iraq
    (New York Times, Oct. 7, 1999). Without US casualties, news media don’t
    think it worth reporting, and over ten years of enforcing the "no-fly
    zones," no US or UK plane has ever been hit (yet, hundreds of times
    they’ve felt it necessary to drop bombs). The air attacks have killed
    300 Iraqis including over 200 civilians. Hundreds of livestock have
    also died from the attacks, such as the May 17, 2000 attack on a
    shepherd’s camp that killed several hundred sheep as well as 14
    civilians including Omran Harbi Jawair, 13. In memory of this boy, the
    Remembering Omran Bus Tour has been crossing the United States and
    Canada over the last couple months (see FOR’s weekly Iraq Action
    Digest).

    Bombings of Iraq make wire service reports and some newspapers, but
    buried near the last page, as they’ve become routine, and as an NY Times
    editor told me about the bombing of Iraq in 1999, once it’s routine,
    it’s no longer news. To explain why, here’s a quote from last week’s
    1/17/01 Seattle Post-Intelligencer article titled "U.S. planes still
    patrol and bullets still fly. It seldom makes the news, but U.S. isn't
    done keeping watch in the Gulf," which says, "For three months last
    summer, while Tack's squadron VAQ-134 flew missions over northern Iraq
    from an Air Force base in Turkey, shooting incidents erupted virtually
    every day. Tack's own father was unaware of the active shooting. After
    a decade, if no [American] one's hit, it's not news."

    The New York Times, 8/13/99 article "U.S. Planes Have Been Striking Iraq
    All Year" said, "While the nation's attention has focused on Kosovo,
    American warplanes have quietly, methodically and with virtually no
    public discussion been attacking Iraq. Over the past eight months,
    American and British pilots have fired more than 1,100 missiles against
    359 targets. That is more than triple the targets attacked in four
    furious days of strikes in December that followed Iraq's expulsion of UN
    weapons inspectors, an assault that provoked an international outrage…
    By another measure, the pilots have flown some two-thirds as many
    missions as NATO pilots flew over Yugoslavia in 78 days of
    around-the-clock war there… And there appears to be no end in sight to
    the war... Every few days, in almost numbing routine, they have struck
    missile sites, radar stations and radio towers across both the northern
    and southern zones. Since late July [1999], there has been a new flurry
    of strikes in response to newly vigorous Iraqi challenges."

    That 8/13/99 New York Times article also supports my statement that all
    this violence was caused by Clinton’s December 1998 impeachment trial
    bombing of Iraq: "Iraq has never recognized the zones, but rarely
    challenged allied patrols of them. After December's raids, however,
    Saddam declared the zones a violation of Iraq's sovereignty, and his
    troops have made good on threats to challenge them… American and British
    warplanes respond when challenged… The Pentagon says the air strikes are
    merely defensive responses to the provocations, meant to protect the
    pilots. But the targets American and British pilots strike are often not
    the ones that directly threaten them…" NY Times.

    On June 16, 2000, the Washington Post ran an excellent and unprecedented
    front-page story, "Under Iraq Skies, a Canvas of Death."

    "TOQ AL-GHAZALAT, Iraq --Suddenly out of a clear blue sky, the forgotten
    war being waged by the United States and Britain over Iraq visited its
    lethal routine on the shepherds and farmers of Toq al-Ghazalat about
    10:30 a.m. on May 17. Omran Harbi Jawair, 13, was squatting on his
    haunches at the time, watching the family sheep as they nosed the hard,
    flat ground in search of grass.... Omran, who liked to kick a soccer
    ball around this dusty village, had just finished fifth grade at the
    little school a 15-minute walk from his mud-brick home. A shepherd boy's
    summer vacation lay ahead.

    "That is when the missile landed.

    "Without warning, according to several youths standing nearby, the
    device came crashing down in an open field 200 yards from the dozen
    houses of Toq al-Ghazalat. A deafening explosion cracked across the
    silent land. Shrapnel flew in every direction. Four shepherds were
    wounded. And Omran, the others recalled, lay dead in the dirt, most of
    his head torn off, the white of his robe stained red.

    "’He was only 13 years old, but he was a good boy,’" sobbed Omran's
    father, Harbi Jawair, 61.

    "What happened four weeks ago at Toq al-Ghazalat, 35 miles southwest of
    Najaf in southern Iraq, has become a recurring event in the Iraqi
    countryside. A week of conversations with wounded Iraqis and the
    families of those killed, around Najaf and in northern Iraq around
    Mosul, showed that civilian deaths and injuries are a regular part of
    the little-discussed U.S. and British air operation over Iraq.

    "Lt. Gen. Yassin Jassem, spokesman for Iraq's air defense command, said
    about 300 Iraqis have been killed and more than 800 wounded by U.S. and
    British retaliatory attacks in the 18 months since President Saddam
    Hussein ordered his antiaircraft batteries to fire on allied warplanes
    enforcing ‘no-fly’ zones in northern and southern Iraq. Of those killed,
    Jassem said in an interview, ‘well more" than 200 were civilians like
    Omran Harbi Juwair, caught in the wrong place at the wrong time. "The
    Iraqi death toll has been substantiated in part by a UN survey that
    examined some incidents independently and accepted Iraqi reports on
    others. While not conclusive on the overall toll, interviews and
    observations during lengthy drives through the regions where airstrikes
    have often been reported backed up the government's contention that
    civilian casualties have become routine.

    "…The Pentagon says more than 280,000 sorties have been flown in the
    near decade since the no-fly zones were imposed, without a single loss
    of aircraft to hostile fire…"

    "…air attacks have occurred as well in vast, open fields or grazing
    grounds--such as in the strike at Toq al-Ghazalat--with no signs of any
    military target present or having been present near the sheep and the
    boys who tend them in scenes reminiscent of the Bible.

    "The mounting toll--averaging one civilian death every other day by
    Iraq's count--has prompted France to freeze participation in enforcing
    the no-fly zones… civilian casualties began to mount after Operation
    Desert Fox in December 1998--a 70-hour U.S. bombing campaign against
    targets across Iraq… Iraqi air defenses received orders after that
    campaign to fire on U.S. and British patrols, drawing retaliatory
    airstrikes… After Iraq's decision to challenge patrols regularly, U.S.
    forces were authorized to attack any Iraqi air defense target--even
    unconnected to a specific attack, or at a time well after any
    challenge--in retaliation for antiaircraft fire, radar illumination or
    missile launch…

    "’I was thrown to the ground and covered with dirt,’ recalled Ziad
    Ibrahim Taha, a 50-year-old shepherd. "Then another blast. It lifted me
    right up into the air.’

    "Taha was with scores of people on a broad, flat expanse of open land 45
    miles west of Mosul just before 10 a.m. on May 12 of last year. As he
    and others in the nearby village of Abu Auani recalled it, two, perhaps
    three warplanes made repeated passes over the congregated villagers,
    firing missiles and raking the area with machine guns.

    "According to Iraqi authorities, 14 people were killed on the spot and
    five more died later from their injuries. Forty-six people were wounded
    and several hundred sheep were killed. Taha's right leg was injured… Two
    of his sons, Mohammed, 24, and Ahmed, 20, were killed, leaving him with
    one remaining son…

    "Taha and others in Abu Auani said a group of youths were tending 400
    head of sheep that morning and had taken refuge from the searing sun in
    a goatskin tent pitched on the grazing range less than a mile from the
    village of 500 residents. Older people remained at home, tending to
    their affairs. Then, Taha said, he heard the tremendous crash of an
    exploding missile coming from the direction of the grazing range.
    Alarmed, he and many others from the village ran to the site.
    Inhabitants of several other nearby villages also ran to look.

    "What they found, Taha said, was carnage. Many sheep lay dead or dying.
    Several of the young shepherds were killed or wounded. As the wounded
    boys were carried away and owners began to slaughter their injured sheep
    and round up those that had fled, the number of rescuers and onlookers
    grew.

    "When all the people were there together, another plane came, and
    another missile came down," he recalled.

    "Nine missiles were fired in all, as best as he can remember, over an
    area of about 200 square yards. He said aircraft firing machine guns
    crossed the zone twice.

    "Hama Mahmoud Ahmed, 20…’I was running away carrying a wounded boy on my
    shoulder,’ he said. ‘But the boy got cut through his stomach. Another
    boy I saw nearby got his head cut off.’…

    "The attack at Abu Auani was one of the few in which the U.S. military
    has acknowledged an error. A communique from Incirlik Air Base that day
    said… ‘One of the targets, believed to have been a surface-to-air
    missile site, now appears to have been a nomadic camp with a number of
    livestock in the area.’…

    "The airstrikes leave behind a lethal litter that could claim civilian
    casualties for years… Saoud Nouri Jassem, 12, Khalis Abdullah Jassem,
    15, and Ahmed Omar Abdullah, 15, were killed. Fadhli Abdullah Jassem,
    10, and Muzhir Abdullah Jassem, 9, were hospitalized and still carry
    their wounds. At the edge of the village, they picked up an unexploded
    piece of munition."
    --Washington Post, June 16, 2000

    On February 3, 1999, the New York Times ran a story, "U.S. Presses Air
    Attacks on Iraq in a Low-Level War of Attrition" which said, "The almost
    daily American air strikes on Iraq have turned into the equivalent of a
    low-level war, hitting a wide range of military targets, some of which
    pose little immediate threat to American or British pilots patrolling
    much of Iraq's territory… Last week, National Security Adviser Sandy
    Berger disclosed that President Clinton had given American pilots wider
    authority to retaliate when threatened by Iraqi forces, allowing them to
    strike at any defense system, not just those that actually target the
    American aircraft… So far, neither the United States nor Britain has
    lost any pilots or aircraft in the skirmishes. Their tactics are
    designed, in part, to limit the possibility as much as possible, by
    attacking with long-range missiles… Last week, at least one American
    missile missed its intended target and struck a residential area in
    southern Iraq, the Pentagon acknowledged. Iraq claimed that 11 civilians
    died in the strike.

    Mainstream media information may be hard to find in the U.S. However,
    there is loads of information from religious groups, the human rights
    community, and the peace community, e.g. Amnesty International, the
    Fellowship Of Reconciliation (FOR, America’s largest and oldest
    interfaith peace group), the American Friends Service Committee, the
    Friends Committee on National Legislation, Friends Journal, Veterans for
    Peace, the International Action Center, Voices in the Wilderness, Peace
    Action, just to name a few. European and other international media
    regularly cover Iraq (World Press Review carries some of them), but
    American journalists only cover Elian.

    Every week there are rallies against the sanctions going on across the
    U.S. (as reported in FOR’s weekly Iraq Action Digest), and several
    cities have WEEKLY vigils on Iraq sanctions/bombing. In the past two
    months there have been scores of vigils and rallies around the 10th
    anniversary of the Gulf War, as well as the Remembering Omran bus tour
    stopping at cities throughout the U.S. and Canada.

    In addition to the attached, I have hundreds of pages of information on
    Iraq sanctions on paper, as well as videos and books. I also have
    hundreds of pages of Iraq sanctions information in electronic formats,
    because since 1998 I have been getting a weekly "Iraq Action Digest"
    email (often 10 pages long) from the Fellowship Of Reconciliation (FOR),
    America’s largest and oldest interfaith peace group. I lost all but the
    past year’s worth of FOR’s emails when I changed jobs, but that’s still
    hundreds of pages.

    The U.S. Pentagon regularly lists attacks on their web sites. I found
    some web sites from the U.S. European Command, which haven’t been
    updated recently, but still list 67 different bombings of Iraq within 13
    months.

    My personal experience includes:
    The Gulf War started 1/16/91 on my birthday, and my wedding date August
    6, besides being my brother’s birthday, is unfortunately the
    anniversaries of Iraq sanctions in 1990 and the 1945 Hiroshima bombing.
    So on our wedding anniversary, I brought my family to Washington DC in
    pouring rain for the August 6, 2000 march and rally to protest ten years
    of sanctions. Earlier, I had helped the Voices in the Wilderness "peace
    walkers" cross the Staten Island bridges. I’ve gone to symposiums at
    Princeton and biweekly meetings of an Iraq sanctions group in Princeton.
    At the symposiums, I heard speeches by Denis Haliday and Hans Von
    Sponeck (two consecutive UN assistant secretaries general in charge of
    the "oil-for-food" program who resigned in protest over the sanctions),
    as well as former U.S. Attorney General Ramsey Clark and others. I’ve
    talked with Americans, British, Canadians, and others who have visited
    Iraq and seen the wholesale destruction from sanctions. It has been my
    sad experience to watch videos of Iraq sanction victims and bombing
    victims. I have tried to ship baby formula to Iraq in violation of U.S.
    law, and know the prison term I could face for doing so. I gave a
    speech in sacrament meeting on Iraq sanctions, and was invited to speak
    about sanctions to the Vietnam Veterans of America as well.

    "Abortion is self defense"
    Bob Kolker

  15. Fred Fredburger said:

    I refuse to surrender to the Jack Russell Terriers!

    It may have been a genetically modified CIA Jack Russell.

  16. in message <[email hidden]>, Gunner

    (') said:

    On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 15:23:28 +0100, Simon Brooke <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    in message <[email hidden]>,

    RicodJour (') said:

    I have enough righteous indignation to go around and see no reason to
    limit it based or race, creed, political affiliation or for starting a
    war under false pretenses that sucks down our money like it's going
    out of style and makes us look like [censored] that didn't learn a
    lesson from Vietnam.

    Those who will not learn the lessons of history are condemned to repeat
    it.

    Ayup..we won in Vietnam,

    You had your arses kicked out of Vietnam. At the end you ran like dogs.
    Like the French before you, it's true; but you weren't just beaten, you
    were crushed. That's history. Whatever drunken exculpatory myths you want
    to cook up to bolster your tottering national ego, the facts on the ground
    are you lost so badly you couldn't even negotiate all your prisoners of
    war home. I can't remember any other war in history of which that is true.

    Quoted message said:

    Pretty much the same today.

    Indeed. Exactly the same today. An American army with high tech hardware
    and low quality wetware, being comprehensively and humiliatingly defeated
    by resistance movements with much poorer weapons, much poorer command and
    control, but much better courage and morale. Of course, both then and now
    your enemies are patriots fighting to defend their homeland against
    uncouth, illeducated barbarian invaders, and patriots inevitably have a
    better motivation for fighting.

    But the lessons of history include the fact that imperialist aggression
    only succeeds when it can deploy fighting troops with excellent discipline
    and high morale (and when it's prepared to commit genocide). America has
    none of those things. It's partly to America's credit that it has none of
    those things, but until you have those things, stay out of other people's
    countries.

    Quoted message said:

    We should have hung the leftists then and we should hang them now.

    You can if you want to, but it won't help. You need to fix either

    (1) Your military or
    (2) Your foreign policy objectives

    You cannot achieve America's present foreign policy objectives with
    America's present armed forces. Hanging leftists makes absolutely no
    difference to this.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; 99% of browsers can't run ActiveX controls. Unfortunately
    ;; 99% of users are using the 1% of browsers that can...
    [seen on /. 08:04:02]

  17. RicodJour said:


    Quoted message said:

    http://arts.bev.net/roperldavid/politics/surplus.htm

    Unfookin' believable. You provide a seven year old link that doesn't
    even agree with what you're saying.

    He's a winger fruit-cake of the first order.
    Sanity left him far behind decades ago.

    VERY advanced case of Winger's Disease.
    HTH
    --
    Cliff

  18. Gunner said:

    On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 22:11:41 -0700, RicodJour <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    But your lies or ignorance is noted.

    And laughed at.

    Being laughed at by a fool is high praise indeed. Thanks!

    R

    Your denial is once again noted and held in contempt.

    Laugh laugh laugh

    Gunner

    He's pretty illiterate too.
    --
    Cliff

  19. Gunner said:

    Bush isnt a serial rapist though.

    Then why did those girls have to get abortions in Texas?
    Such were, after all, illegal at the time (*except* ..?)
    --
    Cliff

  20. Gunner said:
    John Forrest Tomlinson said:

    On Sun, 24 Jun 2007 16:16:39 GMT, Gunner <[email hidden]>
    wrote:
    [about "getting away with" circumventing the Constitution]

    Quoted message said:

    Bush
    hasnt.

    What do you mean he hasn't?

    Scotus and other courts have ruled on the cases where he and his folks
    stepped over the line.

    Such now seem to take a LOT of time .... how very odd ...
    And were quite blatently & brazenly ignored.

    HTH
    --
    Cliff

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