OT: Davis Phinney foundation and Parkinson's research

[Kyle Legate]

Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>
>> Adult stem cells are generally filtered from blood. They are about one
>> out of every million cells in blood. But since there are about a
>> million cells in a small drop of blood you can see that they are fairly
>> easy to come by. Other adult stem cells come from nerves (most notibly
>> in the brain) muscles etc.
>>
>> Adult stem cells are only partially differentiated cells which are
>> slightly different than embryonic stem cells. However, this partial
>> differentiation is important because we don't have a clue what causes
>> the full differentiation and there's no particular advantage to using
>> fully undifferentiated cells from embryos.
>>
>> Moreover, their derivation from blood or other areas means that we
>> don't need to use aborted fetuses or cast off blastocysts (rather awful
>> name for one of the multiple fetuses that are simply killed when doing
>> invitro fertilizations.
>>
>> There is a great deal of ethical and moral questions surrounding the
>> use of embryonic stem cells and in my opinion it is highly suspect to
>> that certain political forces are attempting to build an industry
>> around killed fetuses.
>>
>
You made this up, right? Because there are so many factual inaccuracies
that it reads like a bad joke.

 

[Ewoud Dronkert]

On Tue, 24 May 2005 21:29:23 +0200, Kyle Legate wrote:
> I am directly responsible for a genetically engineered mouse.

Just the one? I thought mice were counted by the dozen in labs.


--
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[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Kyle Legate wrote:

>
>> OnTwoWheels wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The only thing scarier than stem cell research and (genetic
>>> engineering in
>>> general) is that this topic is something that I strongly agree with both
>>> George Bush and Tom Kunich. Yikes!
>>>
> My work involves stem cells, and I am directly responsible for a
> genetically engineered mouse. You may hate me now.

I did not know that. As you are likely far more qualified than anyone
else here to comment, what are your thoughts about the research on adult
"stem" cells--is there something there, or is this another case of
creation "science"?

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

 

[Curtis L. Russell]

On Tue, 24 May 2005 21:29:23 +0200, Kyle Legate
<[email protected]> wrote:

>My work involves stem cells, and I am directly responsible for a
>genetically engineered mouse. You may hate me now.

I think I saw some of that genetically engineered mousse on the
Entertainment channel on cable. You have a lot to answer for.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

 

[Tom Kunich]

I think that we both understand the extremely sensitive nature of the
ethical argument surround embryonic stem cells and that it is being
treated by the left entirely unfairly. Even you, who plainly are trying
to address this subject honestly, have been effected to the point where
you think that arguing when life begins as a religious issue and not
one of straightforward scientific fact. After all there is NO
subjectivity about when life begins or that it occurs at the moment of
fertilization.

That aside it should give anyone pause, considering man's long history
of slavery, to think of the possible misuse of technological generation
of human beings only to use as spare parts. The ethics of that are
frightening to say the very least, and yet that is being hidden under a
political agenda that is trying to bribe the general public with
promises that it will save their own lives.

What worth is my life if it comes only at the cost of another?

 

[gds]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> After all there is NO> subjectivity about when life begins or that it occurs at the moment of
> fertilization.
>


Well, that is exactly the focus of the debate and hence that is
precisisly where the subjectivity lies.



> What worth is my life if it comes only at the cost of another?

I have no idea how you value your life. But there are lots of instances
where one person's life comes at the cost of another. Try war. There is
a lot less disagreement on the morality of soldiers killing opposing
soldiers. But it is still taking another's life to save ones own.

That's the problem with absolutes.

 

[Donald Munro]

Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> It may well be that American scientists can in fact do tissue culture
> with these materials, but right now I'd be inclined to put money on the
> Koreans' autologous cloning bearing fruit sooner.

Now if only you dentists could come up with a way to use stem cells to
regrow teeth in people. It seems unfair that sharks don't have to worry
about their teeth wearing out (OTH if we were like sharks you dentists
would have to be orthodontists).

 

[Donald Munro]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> What worth is my life if it comes only at the cost of another?

What 'another' ? An embryo has less consiousness than a cockroach.

 

[Steven Bornfeld]

Donald Munro wrote:
> Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>
>> It may well be that American scientists can in fact do tissue culture
>>with these materials, but right now I'd be inclined to put money on the
>>Koreans' autologous cloning bearing fruit sooner.
>
>
> Now if only you dentists could come up with a way to use stem cells to
> regrow teeth in people. It seems unfair that sharks don't have to worry
> about their teeth wearing out (OTH if we were like sharks you dentists
> would have to be orthodontists).
>
I have actually heard this being discussed, though obviously all this
talk is highly speculative.
One of the problems is that teeth are derived from 2 germ layers
(IIRC)--ameloblasts (which form enamel) are ectodermal in origin, and
odontoblasts (which form the dentin) are mesodermal in origin.

Steve



--
Cut the nonsense to reply

 

[Kyle Legate]

Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> Kyle Legate wrote:
>
>>
>>> OnTwoWheels wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The only thing scarier than stem cell research and (genetic
>>>> engineering in
>>>> general) is that this topic is something that I strongly agree with
>>>> both
>>>> George Bush and Tom Kunich. Yikes!
>>>>
>> My work involves stem cells, and I am directly responsible for a
>> genetically engineered mouse. You may hate me now.
>
>
> I did not know that. As you are likely far more qualified than
> anyone else here to comment, what are your thoughts about the research
> on adult "stem" cells--is there something there, or is this another case
> of creation "science"?
>
The problem with adult stem cells is one of pleuripotency (the ability
to differentiate into a variety of different cell types). They tend to
be more restricted in their range for whatever reason. Embryonic stem
cells have not been pushed to a particular cell lineage so all the
possibilitites are open to them. Adult stem cells, from blood for
example, are really good at differentiating into hematopoetic cells, but
not so good at differentiating into skin. Cross-differentiation into
other lineages is inconsistent in the lab, takes a lot of tweaking of
the experimental conditions, and who knows if they don't still express
markers of the wrong lineage at the end of the day.

Bottom line, I think they show potential, but to be helpful the end use
must be known, and the correct stem cells must be collected. It's not as
simple as collect some blood and prepare a skin graft, for example.

 

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Kyle Legate wrote:

>>
> The problem with adult stem cells is one of pleuripotency (the ability
> to differentiate into a variety of different cell types). They tend to
> be more restricted in their range for whatever reason. Embryonic stem
> cells have not been pushed to a particular cell lineage so all the
> possibilitites are open to them. Adult stem cells, from blood for
> example, are really good at differentiating into hematopoetic cells, but
> not so good at differentiating into skin. Cross-differentiation into
> other lineages is inconsistent in the lab, takes a lot of tweaking of
> the experimental conditions, and who knows if they don't still express
> markers of the wrong lineage at the end of the day.


That was my presumption--and I was thinking of some of the blastic
cells in bone marrow.
I get a little bit of a creepy feeling from the NIH website posted by
Robert:

http://stemcells.nih.gov/info/scireport/

They seem to be putting an awful lot of emphasis on the potential of
these "adult" stem cells to differentiate even to tissues from another
germ layer. It is a nice thought, but...

Steve
>
> Bottom line, I think they show potential, but to be helpful the end use
> must be known, and the correct stem cells must be collected. It's not as
> simple as collect some blood and prepare a skin graft, for example.


--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

 

[Tom Kunich]

Would it be acceptable, then, to bump you off when you're sleeping?

 

[Tom Kunich]

Steve, wouldn't you think that using specific stem cell lines and
growing them invitro would be a much better idea to begin with?

I have a real problem with some of the 'studies' that appear at least
on the surface to be, "Let's shoot a bunch of stem cells in there and
see what happens."

 

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

Tom Kunich wrote:

> Steve, wouldn't you think that using specific stem cell lines and
> growing them invitro would be a much better idea to begin with?
>
> I have a real problem with some of the 'studies' that appear at least
> on the surface to be, "Let's shoot a bunch of stem cells in there and
> see what happens."
>


I'm not really the one to ask. It seems to me though that doing tissue
culture from cell lines derived from the patient in question would have
more going for it than (for example) trying to propagate the currently
"permissible" cell lines. If these could be derived from the adult stem
cells of the patient in question that's fine, but I don't know that this
has been demonstrated, in the way that the Korean group has demonstrated
using therapeutic cloning.
I agree that if this could be done it would remove a lot of the ethical
hurdles of research--but this is a pretty big "if".

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

 

[[email protected]]

If head trauma is linked to Parkinson's, then it's less likely that the
Phinney's '88 LBL crash caused it, and more likely that his crash while
riding on Hawaii some years later was related. Phinney was riding on
the Queen K, wearing a helmet (unusual for him on a training ride),
when a pickup truck with a large piece of lumber protruding from the
bed passed him. The lumber hit Phinney in the head, so hard that it
knocked him out cold and took him right off his bike. He was unconcious
for some time afterward. His helmet was completely flattened where the
lumber hit it, Phinney commented that he was glad he had it on.

CritPOSER

 

[gwhite]

Kyle Legate wrote:
>

> Bottom line, I think they show potential, but to be helpful the end use
> must be known, and the correct stem cells must be collected. It's not as
> simple as collect some blood and prepare a skin graft, for example.

What about brain cell grafts, if you get my drift?

See thread:
Subject:
Re: Tom doesn't realize this story is about him

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>,
Kyle Legate <[email protected]> wrote:

> Mark & Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> > Kyle Legate wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> OnTwoWheels wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>> The only thing scarier than stem cell research and (genetic
> >>>> engineering in
> >>>> general) is that this topic is something that I strongly agree with
> >>>> both
> >>>> George Bush and Tom Kunich. Yikes!
> >>>>
> >> My work involves stem cells, and I am directly responsible for a
> >> genetically engineered mouse. You may hate me now.
> >
> >
> > I did not know that. As you are likely far more qualified than
> > anyone else here to comment, what are your thoughts about the research
> > on adult "stem" cells--is there something there, or is this another case
> > of creation "science"?
> >
> The problem with adult stem cells is one of pleuripotency (the ability
> to differentiate into a variety of different cell types). They tend to
> be more restricted in their range for whatever reason. Embryonic stem
> cells have not been pushed to a particular cell lineage so all the
> possibilitites are open to them. Adult stem cells, from blood for
> example, are really good at differentiating into hematopoetic cells, but
> not so good at differentiating into skin. Cross-differentiation into
> other lineages is inconsistent in the lab, takes a lot of tweaking of
> the experimental conditions, and who knows if they don't still express
> markers of the wrong lineage at the end of the day.
>
> Bottom line, I think they show potential, but to be helpful the end use
> must be known, and the correct stem cells must be collected. It's not as
> simple as collect some blood and prepare a skin graft, for example.

I've read that the individual lines of stem cells don't all
differentiate the same - some differentiate into specific types of cell
more easily than others. Also that there were supposed to be around 60
approved lines here in the US, but it's turned out to be around 24 or 25,
and several of them are suspected of being contaminated with mouse genes.

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[Kyle Legate]

Howard Kveck wrote:
>
> I've read that the individual lines of stem cells don't all
> differentiate the same - some differentiate into specific types of cell
> more easily than others. Also that there were supposed to be around 60
> approved lines here in the US, but it's turned out to be around 24 or 25,
> and several of them are suspected of being contaminated with mouse genes.
>
This is all true, but I heard that the actual number of available lines
to be a number less than 10.

 

[Bleet Norf]

> What worth is my life if it comes only at the cost of another?


Exactly! That is why I only ingest chemicals.