OT Disgraceful dishonesty of the most murderous kind



>From: "Raoul Duke"

>Despite what the polls say, I really doubt that the majority of churchgoers
>in the US put the worship of Christ ahead >of their pursuit of materialism.


Many have found words in the Good Book to support their pursuit of materialism.
And driving the biggest SUV they can find. And finding the oil they need
wherever it might lie. --TP
 
Ed Chait wrote:
> "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Raoul Duke wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"G.T." <[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>> Christianity's foibles,
>>>
>>>
>>>>especially Christianity as exploited by the New Right, are just more
>>>>noticeable because of its position as the dominant religion in the
>>>>US.
>>>
>>>
>>>Secular Humanism is the dominant religion in the US, not Christianity.
>>>

>>
>>You're funny.
>>
>>Greg

>
>
>
> No, he's right.
>


You're a comedian, too.

Greg

--
Destroy your safe and happy lives
Before it is too late
The battles we fought were long and hard
Just not to be consumed by rock'n'roll
 
R.White wrote:

> "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>
>>Mark Hickey wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>In the post Stalin era Soviet Union, hunger and homelessness were
>>>>>practically eliminated, and almost everyone had access to basic
>>>>>medical care, clean water, and proper sanitation.
>>>>
>>>>You've apparently never actually been to the Soviet Union during that
>>>>time frame, then, not spoken with people who lived under that regime.
>>>>I have had the pleasure of the latter, and have had family members and
>>>>friends who were able to do the former.
>>>
>>>
>>>I visited Moscow and Leningrad (now known as St. Petersburg) in 1972.
>>>The "stores" were showing very little merchandise, and we were told
>>>NOT to go into them (we supposed so we wouldn't see just HOW empty
>>>they really were). The tourist stores that accepted foreign currency
>>>DID have a lot of stock though - I bought an amazing camera lens for
>>>almost nothing, and some very inexpensive amber jewelry (for my
>>>mother, not me).
>>>
>>>The apparent standard of living was quite austere - we visited an
>>>apartment of a guy who was into the "black market" (that is, he wanted
>>>to buy our jeans - they were going for about US$100 at the time). It
>>>was neater, but not much more upscale than the average "slum" in the
>>>US.
>>>

>>
>>But a helluva lot more more upscale than a box under a freeway bridge.
>>I just love how conservatives so easily ignore or just plain accept the
>>homeless as some law of nature. It's not. It's Christ's way to help
>>our brothers and sisters. Unfortunately 99% Christians in this country
>>subscribe to only those teachings of Christ that benefit themselves.

>
>
> Hey Greg, how about doing some research and find out how many homeless
> shelters and soup kitchens there are in the US. Find out who runs them
> and funds them. Who works in them for free.
>
> This will help you start your search:
>
> <http://www.gtii.com/members/lannin/shelters/us.htm>
> <http://www.memphisunionmission.org/>
> <http://www.providencerescuemission.org/.
>
> "The Providence Rescue Mission serves many thousands of men,
> women and children in the west end of Providence. We serve the poor
> with dignity and respect. We feed and cloth the addicted and homeless;
> our doors are open to all, free of charge. We are able to do this
> because of you who faithfully, month after month, donate your time,
> materials and resources to us. We are a faith based organization,
> trusting that God will provide for the many needs and He has been
> faithful. Thank you so much for your faithful support."
>


Yes, like I said, 1% of conservative Christians.

Greg
--
Destroy your safe and happy lives
Before it is too late
The battles we fought were long and hard
Just not to be consumed by rock'n'roll
 
Raoul Duke wrote:

> "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>That isn't true, for two reasons. First "secular humanism" isn't a
>>religion. It's a straw man. Second, all the polls on the subject
>>strongly show that Christianity is the overwhelming dominant religion
>>in the US. Again, let's have a little honesty in the discussion.

>
>
> Webster disagrees:
>
> Main Entry: secular humanism
> Function: noun
> : HUMANISM 3; especially : humanistic philosophy viewed as a nontheistic
> religion antagonistic to traditional religion
> - secular humanist noun or adjective
>
> Despite what the polls say, I really doubt that the majority of churchgoers
> in the US put the worship of Christ ahead of their pursuit of materialism.
>


That's because of hypocrisy, not a belief in secular humanism. They're
still Christians and fear God.

Greg
--
Destroy your safe and happy lives
Before it is too late
The battles we fought were long and hard
Just not to be consumed by rock'n'roll
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> > "G.T." <[email protected]> writes:


> >>Mark Hickey wrote:


> > You seem to think that homelessness is unique to the United States or
> > even to capitalism. It is not. If you're going to argue the liberal
> > perspective, at least do so with intellectual honesty rather than
> > setting up straw men.


> With capitalism and privatization homelessness increases:


> Example of a fairly social country:
>
> "Using this method of counting, in week 16 of 1999 there were 8,440
> homeless people in Sweden."
>
> Sweden's population in 1999: 8,911,000
>
> .09 percent homeless.
>
>
> USA:
>
> "An estimated 3.5 million people are likely to experience homelessness
> in a given year"
>
> USA population in 2000: 290,000,000
>
> A whopping 1.2%!
>
> Greg


Argh. You made me grab my copy of P.J. O'Rourke's _Eat the Rich: A
Treatise on Economics_ so I could look up a quote.

P. 69, from the essay "Good Socialism":

A Scandinavian economist once proudly said to free-market advocate
Milton Friedman, "In Scandinavia we have no poverty." And Milton
Friedman replied, "That's interesting, because in America among
Scandinavians, we have no poverty, either."

Now, just stopstopstop! Homelessness is bad, but it is hardly fair to
blame it on capitalism. There's a good case to be made that "Great
Society" policies of the 1960s had much more to do with the worst
oddities of American society than anything that happened on Wall Street.
There's a good case to be made that only Sweden could make the Swedish
social model work, for a variety of reasons. But given the
separated-twins examples of East and West Germany (or perhaps Poland and
the Netherlands), I think it's fair to suggest that communism was a
superb system for increasing misery and oppression.

Please, please, go ride your bikes or something. The purpose of
rec.bicycles.tech is to discuss bicycles. The people who actually like
arguing this stuff are all waiting for you on numerous blogs, on
talk.politics.economics.boring.stupid.stupid, or in your local
coffeehouse. If you can find a way to tie your economic arguments back
into bikes again (hey, let's do spec tolerance comparisons of Ti frames
made in China, Taiwan, and the USA!), then super. But until then, please
stop. You all know better.

ObBike: I gotta go for a ride now.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
"Tom Paterson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Many have found words in the Good Book to support their pursuit of

materialism.
> And driving the biggest SUV they can find. And finding the oil they need
> wherever it might lie. --TP


I am not a Biblical scholar, so could you point out which passages in the
"Good Book" you are referring to?

Dave
 
On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 12:31:01 -0700, "Raoul Duke"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Tom Paterson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> Many have found words in the Good Book to support their pursuit of

>materialism.
>> And driving the biggest SUV they can find. And finding the oil they need
>> wherever it might lie. --TP

>
>I am not a Biblical scholar, so could you point out which passages in the
>"Good Book" you are referring to?
>
>Dave
>


Dear Wormwood,

For a quick sketch of Puritan notions about wealth and why
it's good for you, take a peek at:

http://www.apuritansmind.com/Stewardship/RykenLelandPuritansAndMoney.htm

Various scriptural citations in the article, the sort of
thing that you're looking for, enliven the subject of
earthly prosperity as the outward sign of inward grace.

Far more enjoyable is Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress":

http://www.gutenberg.net/etext94/plgrm11h.htm

In contrast to Dante's dull guided tour, Pilgrim faces
dangers. In Dante's theology, you may repent, embrace the
true faith, and be saved at the very last moment. In
Bunyan's theology, you may screw up at the very last moment
and go to hell---which was predestined or possibly
foreordained, despite your outward signs of inward grace.

Even briefer and cheerier is Hawthorne's short-story update
of Bunyan, "The Celestial Railroad":

http://etext.lib.virginia.edu/etcbi...ages/modeng&data=/texts/english/modeng/parsed

Your increasingly and ravenously affectionate uncle,

Screwtape
 
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

> ...
> Argh. You made me grab my copy of P.J. O'Rourke's _Eat the Rich: A
> Treatise on Economics_ so I could look up a quote.
>
> P. 69, from the essay "Good Socialism":
>
> A Scandinavian economist once proudly said to free-market advocate
> Milton Friedman, "In Scandinavia we have no poverty." And Milton
> Friedman replied, "That's interesting, because in America among
> Scandinavians, we have no poverty, either."....


Friedman was wrong - there are people in the US of Scandinavian descent
who are poor.

--
Tom Sherman – Quad City Area
 
"G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> R.White wrote:
>
> > "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >>Mark Hickey wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>In the post Stalin era Soviet Union, hunger and homelessness were
> >>>>>practically eliminated, and almost everyone had access to basic
> >>>>>medical care, clean water, and proper sanitation.
> >>>>
> >>>>You've apparently never actually been to the Soviet Union during that
> >>>>time frame, then, not spoken with people who lived under that regime.
> >>>>I have had the pleasure of the latter, and have had family members and
> >>>>friends who were able to do the former.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I visited Moscow and Leningrad (now known as St. Petersburg) in 1972.
> >>>The "stores" were showing very little merchandise, and we were told
> >>>NOT to go into them (we supposed so we wouldn't see just HOW empty
> >>>they really were). The tourist stores that accepted foreign currency
> >>>DID have a lot of stock though - I bought an amazing camera lens for
> >>>almost nothing, and some very inexpensive amber jewelry (for my
> >>>mother, not me).
> >>>
> >>>The apparent standard of living was quite austere - we visited an
> >>>apartment of a guy who was into the "black market" (that is, he wanted
> >>>to buy our jeans - they were going for about US$100 at the time). It
> >>>was neater, but not much more upscale than the average "slum" in the
> >>>US.
> >>>
> >>
> >>But a helluva lot more more upscale than a box under a freeway bridge.
> >>I just love how conservatives so easily ignore or just plain accept the
> >>homeless as some law of nature. It's not. It's Christ's way to help
> >>our brothers and sisters. Unfortunately 99% Christians in this country
> >>subscribe to only those teachings of Christ that benefit themselves.

> >
> >
> > Hey Greg, how about doing some research and find out how many homeless
> > shelters and soup kitchens there are in the US. Find out who runs them
> > and funds them. Who works in them for free.
> >
> > This will help you start your search:
> >
> > <http://www.gtii.com/members/lannin/shelters/us.htm>
> > <http://www.memphisunionmission.org/>
> > <http://www.providencerescuemission.org/.
> >
> > "The Providence Rescue Mission serves many thousands of men,
> > women and children in the west end of Providence. We serve the poor
> > with dignity and respect. We feed and cloth the addicted and homeless;
> > our doors are open to all, free of charge. We are able to do this
> > because of you who faithfully, month after month, donate your time,
> > materials and resources to us. We are a faith based organization,
> > trusting that God will provide for the many needs and He has been
> > faithful. Thank you so much for your faithful support."
> >

>
> Yes, like I said, 1% of conservative Christians.


Oh goody, I'm surrounded by the top 1%!
 
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (R.White) writes:
>
> > I just love how liberals so easily ignore this.

>
> And I just love how conservatives have retreated to a fantasy world
> where there is no cause and effect, believing that conservatism can do
> no harm.


I love how liberals snip the important stuff and leave the fluff.
 
[email protected]ospam (Tom Paterson) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >From: "Raoul Duke"

>
> >Despite what the polls say, I really doubt that the majority of churchgoers
> >in the US put the worship of Christ ahead >of their pursuit of materialism.

>
> Many have found words in the Good Book to support their pursuit of materialism.
> And driving the biggest SUV they can find. And finding the oil they need
> wherever it might lie. --TP


Tell me the names of these people. You know them personally, right?
 

> I love how liberals snip the important stuff and leave the fluff.


Without the panty waste element of this little forum, why would we ever use
the "kill file" option Billey G so thoughtfull provided us RW??

The whole "Pig Wrestling" axiom is in full play on this thread..... we all
get dirty and the pig enjoys it WAY to much.

De Oppresso Liber

Harvey Muschmann (pronounced "Har VEE")
 
>(R.White)

>Tell me the names of these people. You know them personally, right?


You could start with "GW Bush", Pennsylvania Avenue. Call first, he isn't there
a lot. Cal Thomas, Hal Lindsay, LaHaye/Jenkins, Billy Graham. Pat Robertson.
Jack Van Impe. Janet Partial (sp. as always, intentional). No, I certainly do
not know any of these people personally.

Hoo boy, I stepped on a sore spot there. What a hoot. Like we've never seen a
great big huge Expedition or Yukon with the fish symbol on the back and the
American flag waving while the one occupant gabs on the cell phone, holding up
traffic? Puh-leeze. There's one around here with a decal on the back that says
"Texas is bigger than France". Oh yeah. --TP
 
"Raoul Duke" <[email protected]> writes:

> "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>> That isn't true, for two reasons. First "secular humanism" isn't a
>> religion. It's a straw man. Second, all the polls on the subject
>> strongly show that Christianity is the overwhelming dominant
>> religion in the US. Again, let's have a little honesty in the
>> discussion.

>
> Webster disagrees:
>
> Main Entry: secular humanism Function: noun : HUMANISM 3; especially
> : humanistic philosophy viewed as a nontheistic religion
> antagonistic to traditional religion - secular humanist noun or
> adjective


How many churches of secular humanism are in your town? Webster's
full of beans. Secular humanism is a politico-philosopical stance,
not a religion. See http://www.secularhumanism.org/ which includes:
"The Council for Secular Humanism is committed to free inquiry,
reason, and science, the separation of Church and State, civil
liberties, nontheism and humanist ethics."

> Despite what the polls say, I really doubt that the majority of
> churchgoers in the US put the worship of Christ ahead of their
> pursuit of materialism.


I would not disagree with you on this. We have some prime examples
sitting in the White House and on the Cabinet- people who have not
apparently heard that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye
of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.
 
[email protected]ospam (Tom Paterson) writes:

>>From: "Raoul Duke"

>
>>Despite what the polls say, I really doubt that the majority of
>>churchgoers in the US put the worship of Christ ahead of their
>>pursuit of materialism.

>
> Many have found words in the Good Book to support their pursuit of
> materialism. And driving the biggest SUV they can find. And finding
> the oil they need wherever it might lie.


Yes, while conveniently overlooking Christ's teachings on taxes,
charity and the public welfare, the death penalty, etc. Although
there are branches of Christianity that actually are Christian, using
the Bible to be a guide for improvement and not a justification for
prejudice.

Every religion's texts can be misused and misconstrued to favor those
in power and to justify the unjustifiable. It's despicable but not
uncommon.
 
>From: [email protected]

>For a quick sketch of Puritan notions about wealth and why
>it's good for you, take a peek at:
>
>http://www.apuritansmind.com/Stewardship/RykenLelandPuritansAndMoney.htm


Thanks, ST. I especially liked the line about "human endeavor not being a
guarantee of success". Lots of folks out there are taking personal credit for
having a little luck in life, and looking down on those less fortunate (hence
the expression, of course). --TP
 
[email protected] (R.White) writes:

> Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:<[email protected]>...
>> [email protected] (R.White) writes:
>>
>> > I just love how liberals so easily ignore this.

>>
>> And I just love how conservatives have retreated to a fantasy world
>> where there is no cause and effect, believing that conservatism can
>> do no harm.

>
> I love how liberals snip the important stuff and leave the fluff.


I'm so glad you love liberals, but am disappointed that you think your
posts are "fluff." If I had thought it was "fluff" I wouldn't have
quoted it; but you have a better appraisal of the quality and value of
your ideas and statements than I could ever have.
 
>From: "Raoul Duke"

>I am not a Biblical scholar, so could you point out which passages in the
>"Good Book" you are referring to?


No, because I'm not a biblical scholar, either. Nor a mind-reader, for that
matter. I'm just going on a common confluence of extra-large truck-based
vehicle sporting American flags and/or decals and fish symbols. Oh, and the
cowcatcher bumpers meant to protect the annointed occupants from injury while
running over pesky Civics and Corollas that get underfoot. Go to any elementary
or middle school in a middle-class neighborhood at drop-off or pickup time. Be
careful. --TP
 
On 19 Jul 2004 02:25:55 GMT, [email protected]ospam (Tom
Paterson) wrote:

>>From: [email protected]

>
>>For a quick sketch of Puritan notions about wealth and why
>>it's good for you, take a peek at:
>>
>>http://www.apuritansmind.com/Stewardship/RykenLelandPuritansAndMoney.htm

>
>Thanks, ST. I especially liked the line about "human endeavor not being a
>guarantee of success". Lots of folks out there are taking personal credit for
>having a little luck in life, and looking down on those less fortunate (hence
>the expression, of course). --TP


Dear Tom,

There are also those who sometimes give off a faint (but
unconscious) air of smugness as they proclaim their moral
superiority . . .

How fortunate that you and I are so utterly free of such
hypocrisy! How modest of us to take no personal credit for
the perfection of our positions!

Wormwood
 
[email protected]ospam (Tom Paterson) wrote:

>>From: "Raoul Duke"

>
>>I am not a Biblical scholar, so could you point out which passages in the
>>"Good Book" you are referring to?

>
>No, because I'm not a biblical scholar, either. Nor a mind-reader, for that
>matter. I'm just going on a common confluence of extra-large truck-based
>vehicle sporting American flags and/or decals and fish symbols.


Hmmmm... you seem to indicate that displaying a US flag is proof
positive of Christianity and nothing else? I'm sure that's going to
come as a surprise to all the Muslims, Jews, and Athiests who for some
reason have a US flag somewhere on their car or home.

Also, my personal observance is that at least 95%+ of large SUVs don't
have any Christian symbology at all. I suppose that if the average
Christian family is larger than the average family, they would have a
tendency to drive more larger vehicles - but if anything I've seen
proportionally more minivans with fish decals.

> Oh, and the
>cowcatcher bumpers meant to protect the annointed occupants from injury while
>running over pesky Civics and Corollas that get underfoot. Go to any elementary
>or middle school in a middle-class neighborhood at drop-off or pickup time. Be
>careful. --TP


I don't begin to deny that the soccer-mom-in-a-land-barge isn't a real
phenomenon - but you seem to be confusing patriotism and motherhood
with Christianity.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 

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