OT: En Attendant les Barbares (Long Rant from Paris)

  • Thread starter Elisa Francesca Roselli
  • Start date



Brendan Halpin wrote:
>
> [1] Being pedantic would be pointing out that since China and India
> have bigger economies, the UK is 6th biggest economy:
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29>
>


But to be really pedantic this is only when adjusted for purchasing
power parity, otherwise the UK does have the 4th largest GDP.

Whatever, the UK is a very rich country but most of that wealth is in
the hands of a very few. For example, when it comes to land ownership
5% or so own 95% of the UK and the other 95% share the remaining 5%.
Astonishingly 0.6% of the population own 69% of all the land in the UK.
This is a more unequal distribution of land ownership than even in
Brazil.
 
So who is going to be deciding who has too much money, and who has too
little?
Under this socialist system, what incentive will there be for anyone to
work?
And since the necessary taxes come from workers' wages, how will the
government have enough money to pay for the promised services?
The failure to deliver the promised services will only foster more hate
and discontent.
France has really screwed itself up. I love France, and I feel sorry
for them.

And "hi" to all the whack-o-matics who want to torch cars! Hey, why
don't you come over here and try to torch one of mine! I have a big
surprise waiting for you. Bye for now.
 
Nick Kew wrote:

> The Wogster wrote:
>
>> The poverty line, has little to do with actual income, it has a lot
>> more to do with what portion of income is needed to meet basic
>> expenses. The standard saying is that rent (or mortgage costs) should
>> be 1/3 of income,

>
>
> I've heard that in other European countries (probably Germany, where
> I had a decent flat for less than one third of my then-income).
> UK rents are such that that's totally unrealistic, unless you have an
> exceptional income or are happy in bedsit-land.
>
> Actually that's somewhat a matter of lifestyle. Rents are (or were
> when I lived there) also stupidly high in the Rome area, but people
> deal with that by not moving out of the parental home. Which works
> because they don't have such a huge stock of shoebox-sized houses.
>
> I guess that one third is an average between those who pay nothing
> (own their own place or live with family) and those who struggle.
>


A lot depends on whether you are a single-earner with wife and 2 kids or
dinky couple. I've never paid anything close to 1/3 of income on rent or
mortgage - it was in the region of 25% when I was living alone in my
first job straight out of university, and has gone down substantially
since...

James
--
James Annan
see web pages for email
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/
http://julesandjames.blogspot.com/
 
Tony Raven wrote:

> James Annan wrote:
>
>>
>> And the more I read about life back "home", the less sorry I am. My
>> parents just suffered a pitiful attempt at a car theft - result one
>> broken windscreen and the car pushed across the road - and my sister
>> had her bike nicked when she left it leaning outside a shop for a few
>> minutes.
>>

>
>
> I had my car broken into in Japan. They wrecked the door locks trying
> to get in but didn't actually succeed in gaining access.
>
>


Wow, I knew there had to be a crime victim somewhere here, but had not
managed to find one.

James
--
James Annan
see web pages for email
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/
http://julesandjames.blogspot.com/
 
Mark Thompson wrote:
>>>Yup, there is definately plenty of such poverty in the UK...

>>
>>No there's not, we're all human, and everyone in the UK has, unless
>>through their own choice standards of all of the above considerably
>>higher the human norm.

>
>
> Aye. It's a case of if you can't splash your cash *****-nilly you're
> regarded as being in poverty.


I get annoyed with folks in the west complaining about local poverty.
They need to visit some of the truly impoverished places on the globe,
places where people wonder about getting enough food for one meal in a
day, places where people have only the sun for light and heat, places
where the sewage treatment plant is a hole in the ground.

Yes, we do have people in distress. Some of them are in distress
despite their own actions, but many are in distress ***because*** of
their own actions.

In most parts of the western world, if you suck it up and work hard (at
your studies and at your work) you will do very well. Unfortunately,
too many of us lack the fortitude to suck it up and work hard.
Personally, I lack empathy for such folk.

Jeff
 
David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 11:58:40 +0100, Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:
>
>
>>So there you have it.
>>
>>EFR
>>
>>Embattled in Ile de France

>
>
> Elisa: It is difficult trying to deal with disaffected and frustrated
> people. But there are some things to think about. Why is it that these
> young men are hanging around outside your apartment building? Why don't
> they have jobs? It's not just police protection that will fix such a
> situation, but a change in their lives. Until they have some hope for
> their own future, they won't give a **** about yours.


<rant>

Excellent questions? Why, indeed, are they just hanging around? Why do
they not have jobs?

Doubtless, someone will suggest that it is the failure of the government
or of industry to provide these men with jobs. I suggest that it's the
failure of the young men themselves to find jobs.

I expect someone will say that the men cannot find jobs because they
have poor or limited schools or that no one will hire them because of
their ethnicity/race/religion/poor education and language skills. Grade
A B.E. (bovine excrement).

Are there likely people who will discriminate against them? Certainly
in 60 million people you will find some bigots. But it is unreasonable
to expect that all 60 million people will discriminate against them.
Yes, they might have lengthy commutes, or even have to move, but
millions of people world-wide experience that issue every day.

Do they lack education? So what? Bill Gates dropped out of university
and he did okay (I guess). I have many friends with limited education
who have managed to do very well for themselves. Many of the greatest
industrialists and businessmen and leaders of the past two centuries
lacked serious formal education. Education is a tool, nothing more.

If France is anything at all like Canada, there are all sorts of
government (and private) programs available to provide a hand-up to
anyone with the gumption to get off his butt (um, derriere) and try to
make something of his life.

</rant>

Jeff
 
That is a "governmental" definiton and not one used by the folks who
actually study the problem. Lots of work has been done on this at
various academic institutions and using a fixed % of or % of median
income tends to mis estimate the situation.
 
Tue, 08 Nov 2005 20:07:09 -0700,
<[email protected]>, Mark Hickey
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>Let's keep those cars burning!

>
>Zoot, is that you?


Non, I wouldn't encourage that action in a public forum and risk being
pegged as a terrorist.
--
zk
 
[email protected] wrote:
> So who is going to be deciding who has too much money, and who has too
> little?
> Under this socialist system, what incentive will there be for anyone to
> work?


The 'socialist' systems of the Scandinavian countries, Denmark, and
even Holland and France seem to do well enough economically and people
seem to be well enough motivated to work. What's more the French get 2
months paid holidays off a year, retire at 60 on half their final
salary and work a 35 hour week. This should be possible in most
industrialised counties. (The Germans already get more paid holidays
than the French). There should certainly be no need for people to work
50 or 60 or more hours a week as they do in the UK in order to have a
half-decent standard of living, or to exist on a couple of weeks
holiday as they do in the US.

How much motivation do people need? The fact that some company
directors earn millions does nothing to motivate 99% of the population,
if anything it demoralises many people. Perhaps Plato had the right
idea when he argued that no one should have an income less than one
quarter of that received by those with the highest income. I think if a
basic wage of say, £1,000 a month were set the prospect of earning
£4000 a month would be more than enough motivation for anyone.

I have seen others gleefully arguing that the present troubles in
France show that 'socialism' doesn't work. Well give me the French
system any day if the alternative is American-style 'dog eat dog'
competitive individualism. What's more the levels of poverty,
exclusion, illiteracy, prejudice and violence in American society is
such that no one can seriously say that American-style corporate
capitalism 'works' very well either. If anything the 'socialism' of
countries such as Sweden works far better for far more of the
population.

I think it is also very important that the 'socialism' of countries
such as France and Sweden continues to offer an alternative set of
values to that of American and British style neo-conservatism in order
to help stave off the spectre of American political and cultural
hegemony. Thatcher was not the only one who wanted to brainwash
everyone into accepting that 'There is no alternative' (or 'Tina' as
her lackeys used to shout at Conservative conferences). In fact the
neo-con Francis Fukiama even went so far as to argue that the dominance
of the American model constituted 'The end of history'. That was
probably a pretty dumb thing to argue and hopefully little more than
wishful thinking but it is certain that the political, military and
cultural dominance of the USA gives alternative value systems little
chance to flourish and surely without real choice there can be no such
thing as real 'freedom' (whatever that means). The USA is certainly not
hesitant to use its power to promote 'The American way' and crush
opposition wherever possible, be this by using propaganda or its
military might.

Writers such as Noam Chomsky have even argued that the modern corporate
American military machine is fundamentally fascist in nature and as
such needs to be challenged. (Many will have seen the much-discussed
essay 'Fascism Anyone?' by Laurence Britt See
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm ).

I am not sure that I would use the term 'fascism' myself but American
and the UK have definitely moved far too far to the right for my liking
and is certainly becoming ever less inclusive and equitable and ever
more hierarchical and authoritarian. Perhaps the UK is even edging ever
closer to fulfilling George Orwell's prophesy when he said that Britain
risked becoming genuinely fascist in nature, albeit a 'slimy
Anglicised form of fascism with cultured policemen instead of Nazi
gorillas'.

All in all, from what I have seen of the differences between the French
system and that of the UK, let alone the USA, I would choose the French
model any day of the week.
 
From what I've seen in the press, it doesn't sound like too many of the
rioters are children of restaurant owners. It also sounds like your mayor is
afraid to offend the father of at least one of the hoodlums hanging out
around your apartment (the owner of the "restaurant gastronomique").

None of the news articles I've read make any mention of people being doused
with gasoline and set on fire, can you point me to a news article reporting
this?

For a slightly different perspective on French efforts to equalize
opportunities and integrate minorities, read todays New York times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/international/europe/09projects.html?th&emc=th

The article requires registration, here's a scan for those who don't want to
register.
--
mark

Inside French Housing Project, Feelings of Being the Outsiders
By CRAIG S. SMITH
ÉVRY, France, Nov. 8 - Amin Kouidri, 20, has been hunting for a job for more
than two years now and spends his days drifting around a government housing
project here under the watchful gaze of France's national police.

He and his neighbors in one of France's now-notorious housing projects say
that they feel cut off from French society, a result of a process of
segregation lasting for decades, and that alienation and pressure from the
police have now exploded in rage across the country.

"There's nothing to do, and frustrations have added up until in the end it
has become like a bomb that they carry inside," said Azzouz Camen, 44, at a
small snack bar he owns between the neighborhood's apartment blocks and a
gleaming new mosque.

For these men, the violence that has swept the country is easy to
understand, even, they say, long overdue, not only because of the
unemployment but because of the increasing confrontation with the police.

On Tuesday, after two weeks of violence, the government declared a state of
emergency, imposing curfews on numerous trouble spots. [Page A12.]

Mr. Kouidri, his short hair swept forward with gel, was born here to North
African immigrants and educated in French schools. He trained as a pastry
chef and has been seeking work steadily to no avail.

"If you don't have a job, you get into drugs, you get into trouble," he
said, nursing a cup of tea in the chilly air outside Mr. Camen's snack bar
in this southern Paris suburb.

Others turn to religion, a trend that has worried many officials even as it
reassures an older generation of immigrants who have seen their children
stray.

"People need to hang on to something," Mr. Camen said. At prayer time, a
steady stream of men pass his snack bar on the way to the mosque.

But the focus on religion has added to the tension. Fears of Islamic
extremism and the terrorism it sometimes breeds have increased the mistrust
between traditional French society and the immigrant neighborhoods,
particularly after a spate of bombings in the 1990's and the terrorist
violence of the past few years. People in the projects say this has
increased the pressure from the police.

"If you practice your religion, you're dangerous, if you don't drink
alcohol, you're dangerous," said a man at the snack bar who would only give
his name as Mohammed.

The police circle the apartment blocks in their cars or sit at the two roads
that lead in and out of the sprawling neighborhood, periodically stopping
and searching - and angering - the men they see. Worse, said Mohammed and
others, is when the police appear in riot gear.

"At dusk, they put on their helmets and as soon as they do that the kids
say, great, there's going to be a party tonight," Mohammed said. He said an
often destructive game of cat-and-mouse has ensued.

In other projects, the story is the same.

"They come to provoke us," said a 22-year-old man named Sofiane in the
Franc-Moisin projects north of Paris, claiming that the police plant drugs
on young men suspected of being dealers. "They arrest us for nothing."

His brother, Nassin, was quick to admit that violence is often the response.
He claimed that he set off a small bomb outside the prefecture's police
station after his brother was arrested a few months ago. "It's not
unemployment, it's the police," he said.

The projects were built in the 1960's as part of a postwar urban planning
dream: modern blocks of tidy apartments surrounding lawns and playgrounds,
social centers and stores. They drew people from cramped, old houses in the
provinces and cramped, old tenements in the city. When immigrants began
arriving in the 1960's, they moved into the subsidized housing, too.
Residents describe the early days as full of optimism and hope.

"Everyone had work and lived with the expectation that their children would
have better jobs than their parents," said Harlem Désir, a son of an
immigrant from Martinique who grew up in a housing project in Bagneux, north
of Paris.

Working-class French and working-class immigrants lived side by side in the
buildings. Education was free and all of the children were taught the
catechism of France's republican ideal: that under the French state, they
enjoyed liberty, fraternity and equality. The reality of discrimination was
something they learned on their own.

"You're French on your identity card, French to pay taxes and to go into the
army, but for the rest, you're an Arab," said Hassan Marouni, 38, who came
to France from his native Morocco with his parents 30 years ago. He said he
had only been able to find temporary factory jobs and is currently
unemployed.

Most of the native French moved out of the projects in a 1980's
government-sponsored home-buying program. Few immigrant families could
afford to participate and most were left behind. As the first wave of
French-born children of immigrants came of age, they realized that the
opportunities afforded them fell far short of those enjoyed by their native
French friends.

Delinquency flourished in the now predominantly immigrant neighborhoods, and
the police cracked down. That led to a summer of rioting in 1983 similar to
the current unrest, but on a smaller scale.

Mr. Désir emerged as a leader from that unrest and helped organize a march
for equal rights that started in the immigrant neighborhoods outside Lyon
and ended in Paris.

The press dubbed it the March of the Beurs, using the immigrants' slang word
for Arab, and France's left-leaning intelligentsia embraced the cause,
seeing in it an echo of the United States' civil rights movement. President
François Mitterrand received some of the marchers at Élysée Palace and
euphoria swept through the country's children of immigrants. They had stood
up and been heard.

But little happened after that. Mr. Désir and others said the housing
projects were repainted, elevators fixed and social workers assigned to help
guide the young. The government helped Mr. Désir establish a discrimination
watchdog organization and he later went on to his current job as a Socialist
member of the European Parliament.

Few others reaped such bright futures. Even today, France, with the largest
non-European immigrant population in Europe, has only a handful of
minorities in senior government, news media or corporate positions, a sharp
contrast with some European countries with smaller minority populations.

As disappointment settled over the projects and discrimination outside them
grew, young French of West African and North African origin withdrew into
their neighborhoods' increasingly closed world.

"The violence is an expression of anger but also a cry for help," Mr. Désir
said. "The state must be there to guarantee that people will be protected
from discrimination, treated correctly by the police, helped to get out of
the projects."

Otherwise, he warned, the door is open for other ideologies, like
fundamentalist Islam. Mr. Désir, who is a Roman Catholic, said the number of
French-born youths who have been recruited to violent radical groups was
small so far, "but it has sounded an alarm."

An economic downturn hit the immigrant neighborhoods harder than the rest of
the country, and many of the jobs never came back. A series of deadly
bombings in France by terrorists tied to a war in Algeria further soured the
national mood toward the growing immigrant population.

As things grew steadily worse, crime in and from the projects grew. An
effort by the last Socialist administration helped improve things a bit by
putting police officers on the beat in the neighborhoods and providing money
to create jobs for young residents. But both programs ended after Jacques
Chirac became president.

His tough interior minister, Nicolas Sarkozy, replaced the police on the
beat with officers from an anti-crime brigade who cover several towns at a
time. Their aggressive tactics have won almost universal scorn in the
projects and created an air of hostility that has precipitated the current
violence.

"They're cowboys, they're Rambos," Mr. Marouni complained. He said the
situation had deteriorated rapidly since the anti-crime brigade arrived.

Many young people now spend the majority of their time in the small world of
their projects, threatened by the police if they venture too far.

"When you're in your project, you're safe, but if you go out it's more
dangerous," said a tall, young man who gave his name as Kunta Kinte, smoking
a marijuana cigarette near the Temple Woods projects in Clichy-sous-Bois
north of the city.

The balconies of the apartment blocks of Évry's housing projects are crowded
with drying laundry, bicycles and flower boxes. Teenagers and mothers with
strollers crisscross the leafy, parklike grounds.

"The apartments are nice," said Mr. Marouni, who now lives with his wife and
three children in a three-bedroom apartment in one of the buildings.

"It's not a problem of poverty," said Alain Touraine, an expert on
integration in France, adding that the underlying problems are deeper. "What
we are living through is a general process of rapid reverse integration that
is the result of failures on both sides."

He believes that the only way to solve the problem is to create public
debate so people can address each other rather than the caricatures they
see.

People in the neighborhoods say they have a simpler solution - pull back the
police and help idle young people find jobs.
 
Zoot Katz wrote:
>
> Non, I wouldn't encourage that action in a public forum and risk being
> pegged as a terrorist.


that used to be a joke.

c/pegged/arrested/


--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
 
Jeff Williams wrote:
>
> In most parts of the western world, if you suck it up and work hard
> (at your studies and at your work) you will do very well. Unfortunately,
> too many of us lack the fortitude to suck it up and
> work hard. Personally, I lack empathy for such folk.
>


Thats something you often hear from people who are doing OK.

You never hear someone saying "Well I could work hard and look after myself,
but I'd rather live in grinding poverty and hopelessness".


--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/
 
"Bob" <[email protected]> wrote:

>John_Kane wrote:
>> It certainly is not! Let's keep those cars burning!

>
>As long as they burn those evil cars all "right-thinking people" should
>just ignore or forgive their burning of shops, businesses, libraries,
>and churches as well as any acts of violence directed at people, right?


Yep, and just think of what a wonderful effect burning all those cars
will have on the environment. Sure, it's a whole lotta toxic ****
spewed into the air, but then they'll have to drive a rental while the
car manufacturers build a bunch of new cars to replace 'em.

???

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame
 
Wed, 09 Nov 2005 18:31:02 -0700,
<[email protected]>, Mark Hickey
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>As long as they burn those evil cars all "right-thinking people" should
>>just ignore or forgive their burning of shops, businesses, libraries,
>>and churches as well as any acts of violence directed at people, right?

>
>Yep, and just think of what a wonderful effect burning all those cars
>will have on the environment. Sure, it's a whole lotta toxic ****
>spewed into the air, but then they'll have to drive a rental while the
>car manufacturers build a bunch of new cars to replace 'em.


Cars cause more pollution during their manufacture than they produce
in their entire useful service life.
.. . . but so do bicycles.
--
zk
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

<<neo-con Francis Fukiama even went so far as to argue that the dominance
of the American model constituted 'The end of history'. That was
probably a pretty dumb thing to argue>>

probably?

<< and hopefully little more than
wishful thinking but it is certain that the political, military and
cultural dominance of the USA gives alternative value systems little
chance to flourish and surely without real choice there can be no such
thing as real 'freedom' (whatever that means). >>

On the western side of the Atlantic pond, we are living beyond our means,
have a suit for a president and are shipping our jobs and currency to China.
While there is much that is open to criticism in the American cultural
system, it's hard to look forward with much enthusiasm to the future
possibility of the Chinese system becoming dominant.
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

<<neo-con Francis Fukiama even went so far as to argue that the dominance
of the American model constituted 'The end of history'. That was
probably a pretty dumb thing to argue>>

probably?

<< and hopefully little more than
wishful thinking but it is certain that the political, military and
cultural dominance of the USA gives alternative value systems little
chance to flourish and surely without real choice there can be no such
thing as real 'freedom' (whatever that means). >>

On the western side of the Atlantic pond, we are living beyond our means,
have a suit for a president and are shipping our jobs and currency to China.
While there is much that is open to criticism in the American cultural
system, it's hard to look forward with much enthusiasm to the future
possibility of the Chinese system becoming dominant.
 
"sothach" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mike Kruger wrote:
>> I'm not sure where my children would be, though. They certainly wouldn't
>> be
>> in America. We'd have to scatter half of them in Germany

>
> I know a Mike Kruger down in Munich - is he a cousin?
>

No, except in the sense that we are all distant cousins.
 
sothach quoted::

> Right now man say repatriate repatriate
> I and I patience have now long time gone
> Father's mothers sons daughters every one
> Four hundred million strong
> Ethiopia stretch forth her hand
> Closer to God we Africans


Hey, thanks for stirring up some nice memories
from the dustiest corners of my mind.

I've got that on vinyl. I think I'll go play it now.
Oh wait, I don't have a record player.

Robert
how can I sing in a strange land (sing in a strange land)
 
> These corporations do this because globalisation enables them to
> undermine the potential power of the workforce in their own countries,
> turning people into little more passive and essentially powerless
> consumers rather than an essential component of the manufacturing
> system.


The continued existence of cheap labour acts as a disincentive to invest in
automated production, prolonging the existence of people as an "essential
component of the manufacturing system".


p.s. Surely it's better that the poor people get the jobs rather than us
rich people? Why the nationalistic view?
 

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