OT government



"Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Kunich wrote:
>> "still just me" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> Wilson presented FACTS. FACTS that were borne out by the ill-fated
>>> Iraqi invasion that uncovered no secret WMD program or any
>>> clandestine nuclear program.

>>
>> Another fool who believes what he reads in the newspapers instead of
>> the government reports.

>
> Wilson not only didn't present FACTS, the statements he made that
> /sounded/ like facts were in fact directly contradictory to the FACTS he'd
> reported previously.
>
> That's why he's a documented, certified LIAR.


Not to mention that he NEVER presented a written report even though he
claimed he had.
 
On Mon, 9 Jun 2008 07:18:07 -0700, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
wrote:

>> Wilson presented FACTS. FACTS that were borne out by the ill-fated
>> Iraqi invasion that uncovered no secret WMD program or any clandestine
>> nuclear program.

>
>Another fool who believes what he reads in the newspapers instead of the
>government reports.


Show me the WMD's and nuclear weapons, Tom. Everybody is still
waiting, even President Bush.
 
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 17:35:08 GMT, in rec.bicycles.tech still just me
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Show me the WMD's and nuclear weapons, Tom. Everybody is still
>waiting, even President Bush.


No, "everybody" has pretty well accepted the simple fact that we went
through the place with a microscope and found evidence neither of
chemical weapons nor of any capacity to have produced the same... not
now and not in the past. OK, there are a few hold outs; then, there
were a few Japanese soldiers still living in island caves in 1950 to
about the same end.

Oh, well. It all goes to show that, if you hold someone's head under
water, he or she will finally tell you what you want to hear. I
would; so would you.

Jones
 
I don't suppose you two have read anything except an article in Mother
Jones.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/wmd/pdf/chapter1_fm.pdf

"would (it) be fair to expect the (Intelligence) Community to get the Iraq
WMD question absolutely right. How, they ask, could our intelligence
agencies have concluded that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass
destruction-given his history of using them, his previous deceptions, and
his repeated efforts to obstruct United Nations inspectors? And after all,
the United States was not alone in error; other major intelligence services
also thought that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction."

"We do not fault the Intelligence Community for formulating the hypothesis,
based on Saddam Hussein's conduct, that Iraq had retained an unconventional
weapons capability and was working to augment this capability."

According to the moron committee here we were supposed to hope and prey that
Saddam Hussein was just kidding when he threatened others.

According to the moron committee here we wouldn't have to respond if such
weapons were threatened to be used on Israel.

According to the moron committee here a nuclear war that resulted from such
a use against Israel wouldn't be our business.

I have to say that the ignorance demonstrated by the leftists is so far out
that I can only hope Obama gets elected. The results of that will be America
falling to second world status in one election cycle.
 
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:03:25 -0700, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.
com> wrote:

>I don't suppose you two have read anything except an article in Mother
>Jones.
>
>http://www.gpoaccess.gov/wmd/pdf/chapter1_fm.pdf


Just another CYA government committee trying to justify government
stupidity. It's incestuous. The intelligence agencies cited were all
under Presidential directive to find something bad about Iraq.
Released internal memos and testimony show that there was an
Administration directed effort to ignore any raw intelligence that
contradicted the Administrations goals with those intelligence
agencies.

Two UN Committees said there were no WMDs, Wilson found no evidence of
WMD's... and each time the Administration sought to discredit whoever
was heading the effort that was concluding there were no WMD's. Odd,
ain't it?

As you may recall, the latest report from the last UN Commission had
just come in before the invasion - again reporting no WMD's. Chile put
a proposal on the table to spend 30 more days looking for WMDs. Bush
refused to wait. Why? Because he was afraid that they still would not
find any WMD's and his reasons for invading were vanishing fast.

>According to the moron committee here we were supposed to hope and prey that
>Saddam Hussein was just kidding when he threatened others.


How did he threaten the USA and qualify under the Constitution as a
legitimate National *Defense* concern? last I checked, the
Constitution only allows the President to engage in National Defense.

>According to the moron committee here we wouldn't have to respond if such
>weapons were threatened to be used on Israel.
>According to the moron committee here a nuclear war that resulted from such
>a use against Israel wouldn't be our business.


Too hypothetical.

>I have to say that the ignorance demonstrated by the leftists is so far out
>that I can only hope Obama gets elected. The results of that will be America
>falling to second world status in one election cycle.


I'm not sure that you're very clear on who's who in politics. The
"leftists" generally support a strong defense of Israel. The (real)
Conservatives and the Leftists agree, for differing reasons, that
invading Iraq (or any country that is not a direct threat) is wrong.

Only the neo-cons, who believe it's OK to spend $1 trillion on an
invasion of the sovereign nation in violation of our own Constitution
seem to think it's right (But then, they have their hand in the
profits and they have the marketing/sales to make dolts like you
believe it's in our nation's interest.

As for the country falling to second class status: we already have a
dollar free falling against other currencies; we have record deficits
that are bankrupting the country; foreign investors own more of us and
our companies than we do; we get no respect anywhere in the world due
to Bush's foreign policy post 2002; real jobs, white and blue collar,
are disappearing like bon-bons on Rosie Odonell's coffee table; and we
no longer lead the world in any industry, except maybe the space-race
- and only in that because of the colossal waste of US government
taxpayer money to support it.

Just how much more has to happen for us to be "second class"?
 
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:03:25 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech "Tom Kunich"
<cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

>I don't suppose you two have read anything except an article in Mother
>Jones.


Well... actually, I'm wondering why I'm reading *this* on
rec.bicycles.tech. I don't have a problem with your political
opinion; however, your tone is a bit too confrontational for my taste.
(I prefer my discourse to proceed along more civil lines, thank you.)

You appear to be flooding a cycling newsgroup with political postings
that have nothing whatsoever to do with cycling... to what end, I
haven't a clue. Of course, most groups have one or two who like to
flame about politics. I simply bit-bucket them.

I assure you that I can well hold my own in a political discussion;
however, I will not contribute to off-topic static on an unrelated
forum. I suggest that we continue this matter in a newly formed
group: alt.war.terrorism wherein our discussion will be compatible
with the charter. I suggest that, by having it *here*, we'll simply
bore everyone else.

I suggest the same regarding *most* of your posting activity,
actually... not trying to offend, mind you.

Jones
 
!Jones wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:03:25 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech "Tom Kunich"
> <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>> I don't suppose you two have read anything except an article in
>> Mother Jones.

>
> Well... actually, I'm wondering why I'm reading *this* on
> rec.bicycles.tech.


Ask Jobst. He (repeatedly) started it.

Bill "nice trick with the distribution to alt.war.disingenuous btw" S.
 
On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:30:37 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech "Bill
Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote:

>!Jones wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:03:25 -0700, in rec.bicycles.tech "Tom Kunich"
>> <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't suppose you two have read anything except an article in
>>> Mother Jones.

>>
>> Well... actually, I'm wondering why I'm reading *this* on
>> rec.bicycles.tech.

>
>Ask Jobst. He (repeatedly) started it.
>
>Bill "nice trick with the distribution to alt.war.disingenuous btw" S.


What... the follow up? I was only suggesting a more appropriate forum
for our political dialog; further, I explicitly stated so in the text.
I'd say that "disingenuous" is a bit petulant, but that's the way it
goes.

I dunno... I have seen flame wars run month after weary month about
someone being off topic. Perhaps this type of discussion would be
more suited for alt.on-topic; although, I think they're now extinct.
According to the charter, it was a newsgroup "dedicated to the
discussion and resolution of the question:'What, exactly IS the topic
of this newsgroup, anyway?' "
 
On Jun 12, 7:48 pm, still just me <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:03:25 -0700, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo.
>
> com> wrote:


>
> >I have to say that the ignorance demonstrated by the leftists is so far out
> >that I can only hope Obama gets elected. The results of that will be America
> >falling to second world status in one election cycle.

>


<snip>

>
> As for the country falling to second class status: we already have a
> dollar free falling against other currencies; we have record deficits
> that are bankrupting the country; foreign investors own more of us and
> our companies than we do; we get no respect anywhere in the world due
> to Bush's foreign policy post 2002; real jobs, white and blue collar,
> are disappearing like bon-bons on Rosie Odonell's coffee table; and we
> no longer lead the world in any industry, except maybe the space-race
> - and only in that because of the colossal waste of US government
> taxpayer money to support it.
>
> Just how much more has to happen for us to be "second class"?


Millions of citizens without access to adequate health care?
 
Dan O wrote:
> On Jun 12, 7:48 pm, still just me <[email protected]> wrote:


>> Just how much more has to happen for us to be "second class"?


> Millions of citizens without access to adequate health care?


Name one. (Hint: even NON citizens can't be turned away from getting
needed care.)
 
Ha
"Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dan O wrote:
>> On Jun 12, 7:48 pm, still just me <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>>> Just how much more has to happen for us to be "second class"?

>
>> Millions of citizens without access to adequate health care?

>
> Name one. (Hint: even NON citizens can't be turned away from getting
> needed care.)
>


Absolutely correct. Have you ever been to an Emergency Room lately, you
can die while waiting for help because of all the un-insured people in there
getting treatment for every non-emergency illnesses from colds to sprained
ankles.
 
DI wrote:
> Ha
> "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Dan O wrote:
>>> On Jun 12, 7:48 pm, still just me <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:

>>
>>>> Just how much more has to happen for us to be "second class"?

>>
>>> Millions of citizens without access to adequate health care?

>>
>> Name one. (Hint: even NON citizens can't be turned away from
>> getting needed care.)
>>

>
> Absolutely correct. Have you ever been to an Emergency Room lately,
> you can die while waiting for help because of all the un-insured
> people in there getting treatment for every non-emergency illnesses
> from colds to sprained ankles.


Broke my shoulder two weeks ago (tire blow-out on a 40 mph downhill curve),
but it was faster to see my doc 4-5 days later and eventually an orthopedist
10 days after /that/ than to go to my plan's ER.

Bill "higher threshold for pain than waiting hours and hours" S.
 
"Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> DI wrote:
>> Ha
>> "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Dan O wrote:
>>>> On Jun 12, 7:48 pm, still just me <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Just how much more has to happen for us to be "second class"?
>>>
>>>> Millions of citizens without access to adequate health care?
>>>
>>> Name one. (Hint: even NON citizens can't be turned away from
>>> getting needed care.)
>>>

>>
>> Absolutely correct. Have you ever been to an Emergency Room lately,
>> you can die while waiting for help because of all the un-insured
>> people in there getting treatment for every non-emergency illnesses
>> from colds to sprained ankles.

>
> Broke my shoulder two weeks ago (tire blow-out on a 40 mph downhill
> curve), but it was faster to see my doc 4-5 days later and eventually an
> orthopedist 10 days after /that/ than to go to my plan's ER.
>
> Bill "higher threshold for pain than waiting hours and hours" S.
>


When I had a heart attack last September I think they got me in immediately,
mainly because I had died 3 times on the way to the hospital. But I don't
remember any of it. About 4 years ago on a Sunday Morning I had a blockage
in my urinary track and could not relieve myself. I called my Doctors
office and was told to go the nearest Emergency Room, I waited nearly 2
hours with my bladder filing up by the minute. Ahead of me was families
with kids, mostly with colds getting treated. It was one of the most
miserable times of my life.
 
DI wrote:
> "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> DI wrote:
>>> Ha
>>> "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Dan O wrote:
>>>>> On Jun 12, 7:48 pm, still just me <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Just how much more has to happen for us to be "second class"?
>>>>
>>>>> Millions of citizens without access to adequate health care?
>>>>
>>>> Name one. (Hint: even NON citizens can't be turned away from
>>>> getting needed care.)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Absolutely correct. Have you ever been to an Emergency Room
>>> lately, you can die while waiting for help because of all the
>>> un-insured people in there getting treatment for every
>>> non-emergency illnesses from colds to sprained ankles.

>>
>> Broke my shoulder two weeks ago (tire blow-out on a 40 mph downhill
>> curve), but it was faster to see my doc 4-5 days later and
>> eventually an orthopedist 10 days after /that/ than to go to my
>> plan's ER. Bill "higher threshold for pain than waiting hours and hours"
>> S.
>>

>
> When I had a heart attack last September I think they got me in
> immediately, mainly because I had died 3 times on the way to the
> hospital.


Man, people ALWAYS top my stories! LOL (The guy who helped me after I
crashed and waited until my ride arrived, got t-boned by a woman running a
red light @ 50 mph and broke his neck, ribs and lower leg. Made my limp
right arm not seem so bad.)

Seriously, glad you came through all that.

> But I don't remember any of it. About 4 years ago on a
> Sunday Morning I had a blockage in my urinary track and could not
> relieve myself. I called my Doctors office and was told to go the
> nearest Emergency Room, I waited nearly 2 hours with my bladder
> filing up by the minute. Ahead of me was families with kids, mostly
> with colds getting treated. It was one of the most miserable times
> of my life.


As a veteran of numerous impacted kidney stones, I can feel that particular
pain. I'm surprised they ONLY made you wait two hours...

Bill "only gonna get worse" S.
 
"DI" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>> Millions of citizens without access to adequate health care?

>>
>> Name one. (Hint: even NON citizens can't be turned away from getting
>> needed care.)

>
> Absolutely correct. Have you ever been to an Emergency Room lately, you
> can die while waiting for help because of all the un-insured people in
> there getting treatment for every non-emergency illnesses from colds to
> sprained ankles.


Sorry Charley - emergency room care is prioritized to the most critical care
first. I had the misfortune to be in a serious accident less than a month
ago and being out of work I ended up in the county emergency room since it
never occurred to them to ask if I had insurance - instead they just asked
if I was working.

I observed what was happening up close and personal for most of a day since
they thought I hit my head and was knocked out instead of having some bones
in my face broken knocking me out for a couple of seconds from pain and
shock and no serious damage.

If you need emergency treatment these hospitals will treat you rapidly. They
halted treating me in the middle of a treatment in order to provide complete
care for a heart attack victim.
 
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:23:46 -0700 (PDT), in rec.bicycles.tech Dan O
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Millions of citizens without access to adequate health care?


Oh, we have great health care, just an oddball way of funding it!
Most countries nationalize the coverage. This works... sort of; there
is no incentive for anyone to provide anything above minimal quality,
so that's what you get.

In the US, it's private... sort of. The rub is that an e-room cannot
turn away an uninsured person who can't pay.

I see two options: 1) the government gets in all the way and provides
health care, or, 2) the government gets all the way out of it.

Take your choice. In one hand, you get OK healthcare; the Canadian
system functions, for example. The other would provide superior
health care; however, you'd have to be willing to watch a teen-ager
bleed to death on the e-room steps from a miscarriage because she
didn't have enough money to pay for services. There isn't a whole lot
of middle ground, I'm afraid.

Jones
 
"Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Seriously, glad you came through all that.
>
>> But I don't remember any of it. About 4 years ago on a
>> Sunday Morning I had a blockage in my urinary track and could not
>> relieve myself. I called my Doctors office and was told to go the
>> nearest Emergency Room, I waited nearly 2 hours with my bladder
>> filing up by the minute. Ahead of me was families with kids, mostly
>> with colds getting treated. It was one of the most miserable times
>> of my life.

>
> As a veteran of numerous impacted kidney stones, I can feel that
> particular pain. I'm surprised they ONLY made you wait two hours...
>
> Bill "only gonna get worse" S.
>


The only reason I'm alive today is I was with 2 people that new CPR. We
had just finished a 10 mile bike ride and was sitting in a coffee shop when
I fell out of the chair, no warning signs, no chest pains, none of the
typical associated hear attack symptoms. I'm one of the luckiest people in
the world today, even though I'm still recovering from it. The Cardio Doc
said I lost about 50% of my heart capacity. It's been a tough Winter.
 
DI wrote:
> The only reason I'm alive today is I was with 2 people that new CPR. We
> had just finished a 10 mile bike ride and was sitting in a coffee
> shop when I fell out of the chair, no warning signs, no chest pains,
> none of the typical associated hear attack symptoms. I'm one of the
> luckiest people in the world today, even though I'm still recovering
> from it. The Cardio Doc said I lost about 50% of my heart capacity.
> It's been a tough Winter.


I'm sure you've heard about Tim Russert by now. Just never know.
 
On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:02:03 -0500, !Jones <[email protected]> wrote:

>>Millions of citizens without access to adequate health care?

>
>Oh, we have great health care, just an oddball way of funding it!
>Most countries nationalize the coverage. This works... sort of; there
>is no incentive for anyone to provide anything above minimal quality,
>so that's what you get.


What is the definition of "minimal quality" and do you have a
reference for that assertion?
 
"Bill Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> DI wrote:
>> The only reason I'm alive today is I was with 2 people that new CPR. We
>> had just finished a 10 mile bike ride and was sitting in a coffee
>> shop when I fell out of the chair, no warning signs, no chest pains,
>> none of the typical associated hear attack symptoms. I'm one of the
>> luckiest people in the world today, even though I'm still recovering
>> from it. The Cardio Doc said I lost about 50% of my heart capacity.
>> It's been a tough Winter.

>
> I'm sure you've heard about Tim Russert by now. Just never know.

That's the truth, I never thought I would have heart problems. I was riding
my bike 100-200 miles a week, eating fairly good, keeping my blood sugar and
pressure in control. But I didn't have a blockage. it was a Ventricle
Fibulation, fatal in over 90% of the time.
 

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