OT: Liberation(?) of Iraq?



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"bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Mark Hickey wrote:
>
> > Israel isn't going to nuke anyone (though they'd last about 10 minutes if they didn't have
> > nukes). Pakistan and India aren't going to nuke anyone other than perhaps each other (and that's
> > pretty unlikely). These are not countries run by self-appointed tyrants.
>
> I think you'll find Pakistan is.

Interestingly though, despite being run by the winners of a military coup, the administration seems
to be more to the taste of the people than the results of a democratic election.

So perhaps they aren't tyrants. At least in some peoples eyes it seems that the military may be less
corrupt and be more in line with the people's wishes than the politicians were.
 
On 26/3/03 7:48 am, in article [email protected], "Pete Jones"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> The problem is, that article I linked was in a rightwing paper called the Telegraph (which,
> incidentally, I don't read, preferring The Times)

Prop. R. Murdoch

> People like Jeremy, when confronted with a fact that doesn't fit into their view, simply dismiss
> it as rightwing propoganda.

That's very easily done when the proprietor's wife is a well known Zionist propagandist.

> War is not nice. Some soldiers are undoubtedly Big Mac chomping assholes. Come up with an
> alternative.

Err .. NOT starting a war?

J.
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> The current action is (IMHO) the end of the fringe group mentality. Hopefully democracies in
> >> Afghanistan and Iraq will spawn critical thought from within the "Arab street" in which their
> >> problems aren't all laid on others. If the economy and well-being of the citizens of
> >> Afghanistan and Iraq stand out in sharp contrast to those still mired in monarchy or
> >> heavy-handed religious leadership (did I really say that?) the opinion of the "street" will
> >> turn.
> >
> >Which democracies are they? Does the US have a record in intervening militarily and leaving a
> >democracy? More likely there will be civil war and the emergence of a new dictator who will be
> >accepted because people will prefer ANYONE to the continuing turmoil. No doubt the CIA will be
> >busy arming one or many factions. Sounds like ... Err ... Afghanistan.
>
> Or Iraq. At the time, it looked as if Saddam might bring reform to Iraq. And Osama looked like a
> better bet than Afghaistan becoming one of the "Russiastans".
>
> The stakes are different now, and Bush has served notice that "politics as usual" don't apply any
> more. I expect there will be a lot more transparancy - but feel free to rub my nose in it if it
> doesn't work out that way.
>

I would say that in and around Baghdad you will find a lot of people that think Saddam is great,
these people were enjoying the good life and only lost it when UN/Bush sanctions took effect. You'll
find people in the USA that hate bush as much as much as the poor people of Iraq do, we only hear
about them when they blow up a federal building or get their compound raided by the ATF and
fortunately they don't populate entire southern towns or mountainous regions.

> Think how cool it will be if Iraq's very capable population cranks up an economy that makes Israel
> look like an also-ran. That, IMHO will be the true measure of success.
>

Well I don't know if you read those articles someone posted here yesterday about the Euro vs. the US
dollar but the theory is if the sanctions were lifted and Iraqs economy cranked up while it was
still trading oil in euros then Iraq and Iran (if and when it changed to euros also) would have it
within their power to topple the USA without firing a shot. Now like all things to do with the
reasoning behind this war, it is just a theory, but it is a very credible one. Now I never hear word
one about this on CNN, programs like moneyline still call the Euro irrelevant even though it has
gone from $.88 US to $1.06 in 6 months. It is a recorded fact that Saddam managed to make himself a
few billion dollars through what amounts to global insider trading with money the UN had control of
by changing his 10 billion dollar reserve fund to euros and driving the value of a euro up with the
small amount of oil the US/UN is letting him sell. If you had bought $1000 in euros before Saddam
did that you would have an extra $200 in your pocket right now. I notice Tony Blair has sidelined
his effort to get Britain to join the EU in the last year now that he's in bed with GW. I find that
a little suspect. It would be very interesting if we could go back and play it all again to see if
Bush would have Blair's support if they had gone to the Euro a year ago. Theory or not, if Iraq was
the second largest exporter of oil again, and trading in euros, the rest of Opec would surly follow
and the US dollar would be on a toilet paper spindle next to the Canadian dollar in bathrooms
everywhere. So when Bush says "We will prevail", I really get the sense now that he's saying "We
will prevail, no matter what we can't afford to stop until we have control of that oil or at least
get it trading in US dollars again." Then again maybe I've giving him too much credit for knowing
what's going on in his own administration.

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >[email protected] says...
>
> >> One in which the right thing will be done, IMHO. The endless and pointless diplomatic dance in
> >> the UN could go on until hell freezes over and Saddam would still be building WMD, and would
> >> soon become a nuclear power. We could have "played the game" for another 12 years, or we could
> >> do what obviously needs to be done.
> >
> >So what? Israel is a nuclear power, Pakastan in a nuclear power, India is a nuclear power. Those
> >three countries are currently engaged in hostilities in the region and haven't nuked anyone. Iraq
> >was contained just as Cuba has been for 50 years. God help us if they strike oil in Cuba.
>
> Israel isn't going to nuke anyone (though they'd last about 10 minutes if they didn't have nukes).
> Pakistan and India aren't going to nuke anyone other than perhaps each other (and that's pretty
> unlikely). These are not countries run by self-appointed tyrants.
>

Are you kidding me? The leadership of Pakistan is twice the human rights violator Saddam is and just
a year ago they were under the same sort of sanctions that Iraq is because of their close ties to
the Taliban until bush decided to disregard the UNs rules once again and start dealing with them. He
seems to have forgotten that Pakistan, as a non signer to the nuclear proliferation treaty, is
supposed to be ostracised by the member countries for it's development program and nuclear testing.
That's ok though because the US has made no effort to disarm under the treaty it signed anyway. "Do
as a say not as I do" as it were.

Iraq is no more of a threat militarily to the US than Pakistan or India.. or Korea for that matter.
Now economically it has the power to waste the USA.

> Iraq was contained militarily, but you can't contain VX or anthrax. And you can't trust Saddam to
> "play nice", unless you're really naive that is... ;-)

I don't know why this isn't blatantly clear to everyone but the US has a massive supply of chemical
weapons. Did they produce these millions of tones of nerve agents for experimenting on rats? I don't
think so. They were developed as a deterrent to the Rusians which also had a vast supply. Fine, now
why is this any different for Iraq to have a supply of these weapons and chemical suits when all
their hostile neighbors also have these same weapons. Yes Saddam has used them "on his own people"
as the western media like to put it, clear sign that he's a mad man right? Not really, those were
not really his own people. Saddams people are his military and those close to him, everyone else in
the country is a conquered enemy, be it Kurds, Shiite muslims or whatever. Whenever he gets a whiff
of a revolt brewing he kills them off. Nerve gas may be a more "evil" way of going about it but if
he didn't have that he'd just bomb the hell out of them or gun them all down. Now if the US were to
have a civil war in modern times, how subdued do you think bush's response to would be if his office
was threatened by say most of the southern states moving north to kill him?

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
 
"Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Paladin <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > Paladin <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
>
> > > > The side benefit of liberating the people is just extraneous icing on the cake.
> > >
> > >
> > > So, not 'a near-heroic act' at all then.
> > >
> > Actually, YES, of course it is, when viewed from *their* perspective, which was the sole purpose
> > of my post--to show that a single action can be viewed from many perspectives.
>
> Sounds like a re-direction after the fact to me ',;~}

Not intentional, but I can usually turn on a dime when I realize I've stepped in it and then put my
foot in my mouth.

I got an email last night from an A-10 operator in So. Iraq who said the civilian population is
finally coming around to believe that we can truly rid them of Saddam, and they are cooperating with
the coalition efforts. Terror and very real retribution threats kept them fairly well hidden and
quiet for the first several days.

And isn't it just interesting that Iraqi prisoners of war are being found with anthrax antidotes on
them. When was the last time America used anthrax? Hmmm...

> > Paladin Debate and discussion are good things.
>
> So, what do you make of these things in the light of the links Bomba posted?
>
> Shaun aRe
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> "bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > Mark Hickey wrote:
> >
> > > Israel isn't going to nuke anyone (though they'd last about 10 minutes if they didn't have
> > > nukes). Pakistan and India aren't going to nuke anyone other than perhaps each other (and
> > > that's pretty unlikely). These are not countries run by self-appointed tyrants.
> >
> > I think you'll find Pakistan is.
>
> Interestingly though, despite being run by the winners of a military coup, the administration
> seems to be more to the taste of the people than the results of a democratic election.
>
> So perhaps they aren't tyrants. At least in some peoples eyes it seems that the military may be
> less corrupt and be more in line with the people's wishes than the politicians were.
>
>
>

Yes they are putting on a good show in exchange for aid packages from the USA but I don't except it
will last long now that the US has no need to run a pipeline through Pakistan.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
 
On 26/3/03 3:47 am, in article [email protected], "Mark Hickey"
<[email protected]> wrote:

out that way.
>
> Think how cool it will be if Iraq's very capable population cranks up an economy that makes Israel
> look like an also-ran. That, IMHO will be the true measure of success.

You're kidding, right? Israel's economy is a basket case. You should know - your tax dollars are
paying for it!

J.
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> bomba <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Mark Hickey wrote:
>
> >> Kim Jong Il is an opportunist, but he's not a deranged madman (though he certainly does have
> >> his faults). The only tactic he has right now is bluff and bluster. I think GWB is handling it
> >> masterfully, telling KJI to go hump someone else's leg, and telling China and Russia to "deal
> >> with it". Neither want to deal with Iraq's WMD? Fine. They can handle North Korea alone
> >> instead.
> >
> >Kim Jong Il has thrown out the UN inspectors, removed cameras in the Yongbyon nuclear complex,
> >abrogated the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, torn up a 1999 agreement to stop testing long
> >range missiles (ones that can reach the US, in fact), has said that any attempt to impose
> >sanctions by the UNSC would be viewed as a declaration of war and is ****** at the US for
> >renaging on a deal 1993, cutting off further negotiations in the GWB era and sees the positioning
> >of cruise missiles in Alaska as a direct threat. And you're more worried about Saddam Hussein.
> >I'm astonished...
>
> Why worry? Just run it by the UN Security Council. We should be able to get North Korea under
> control by this time next century. Isn't that the way you'd like us to handle NK?
>
> NK is an Asian problem. Time for Russia and China to get some skin in the game, don't you think?
> Don't want to "look too unilateral" and all.
>
> As soon as China and Russia are on board, KJI will be taken behind the woodshed. Until then, he's
> more of a nuisance than a threat, IMHO. There's no possibility of him selling a nuke to someone to
> use on us (since it would be easily traced back), and AFAIK he has no other chemical and
> biological weapons programs. He's also not likely to want to actually fire a nuke at us, since
> Pyonyang would get melted into a big glass ball if that happens - and he's not suicidal.
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
>

Given most of his gear says Made in China or Made in the USSR on it I think they'll be having a good
laugh about all this behind that wood shed. All he wants is his country out of the UN imposed poor
house and he'll use whatever it he can get his hands on to force that result.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
 
> can truly rid them of Saddam, and they are cooperating with the coalition efforts. Terror and very
> real retribution threats kept them fairly well hidden and quiet for the first several days.
>
> And isn't it just interesting that Iraqi prisoners of war are being found with anthrax antidotes
> on them. When was the last time America used anthrax? Hmmm...
>

I think you'd have to ask the dead postal workers. All indications are that the Anthrax used was
from a US lab.

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
 
In article <BAA79142.1253A%[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> On 26/3/03 3:47 am, in article [email protected], "Mark Hickey"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> out that way.
> >
> > Think how cool it will be if Iraq's very capable population cranks up an economy that makes
> > Israel look like an also-ran. That, IMHO will be the true measure of success.
>
> You're kidding, right? Israel's economy is a basket case. You should know - your tax dollars are
> paying for it!
>
> J.
>
>

Bah, you can always print more money! (for now)
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com
 
Pete Jones <[email protected]> wrote:

>I find it amusing that the human shield volunteers who went to Iraq in a bus from London were
>expecting to be placed in hospitals etc, but have found instead themselves lounging around in
>refineries and industrial targets. It kind of shows where the regime's priorities are. It's doubly
>ironic when you realise the Coalition is bending over backwards not to hit such targets, in order
>to preserve a working infrastructure for after the war - even at the cost of its own troops' lives.

I read an interview with one of the volunteer human shields who went to Iraq. It was really pretty
funny. He came back basically saying "nuke the *******". ;-)

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
bomba <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey wrote:
>
>> Why worry? Just run it by the UN Security Council. We should be able to get North Korea under
>> control by this time next century. Isn't that the way you'd like us to handle NK?
>
>North Korea was under control of the UN until the Bush administration cut all negotiations with
>them, started threatening them and placed them in the 'Axis of Evil'.

Hey, wait a minute. The US gets beat up for being "unilateral" and now that GWB refuses TO be
unilateral with NK, he's shirking his responsibility some way? He's kinda damned either way I guess
(one reason a lot of people in the US don't take international opinions as seriously as they might
if there were some consistency in them).

>> NK is an Asian problem. Time for Russia and China to get some skin in the game, don't you think?
>> Don't want to "look too unilateral" and all.
>
>Perhaps you don't understand this. NK does not have a problem with Russia or China, and vice versa.
>NK's problem lies very much with the US.

What the heck does the US have to do with it? We agreed to supply them heating oil and to help them
build non-breeder reactors in exchange for their promise (hah) to shut down their nuclear program.
They didn't, we pulled the plug. NK can go pound sand, AFAIC.

>> As soon as China and Russia are on board, KJI will be taken behind the woodshed. Until then, he's
>> more of a nuisance than a threat, IMHO. There's no possibility of him selling a nuke to someone
>> to use on us (since it would be easily traced back),
>
>But surely the damage would have been done by then? Why not take them out before that possibility
>arises? Surely it would be in the best intersts to remove any possibility of these weapons being
>used against the US, before the chance arises. Why, you could institute a regime change too.

Let's wait for France to figure out what to do. Their steely resolve in the face of this kind of
thing is always great to watch.

>and AFAIK he has no other
>> chemical and biological weapons programs. He's also not likely to want to actually fire a nuke at
>> us, since Pyonyang would get melted into a big glass ball if that happens - and he's not
>> suicidal.
>
>Yes, but he's not exactly stable either.

He's got bad hair, but he's no idiot.

>I agree with certain parts of your argument - KJI is playing a game at the moment, but it's a game
>he's been forced in to by the US administration - the question is, how far can he be pushed?

I disagree - the US tried to solve the issue with diplomacy and a whole lot of money. NK screwed
the pooch.

>The other thing you have to bear in mind is that the 'melting of Pyonyang in to a big glass ball'
>is not an easy option. Fallout from explosions would certainly affect the US's allies, South Korea
>and Japan, not to mention China and Russia. None of whom would be too impressed, I'm sure. Perhaps
>KJI has a better hand than you imagine.

We'll wait until the wind is blowing to the east or south - Japan and
S. Korea will think it's worth a little increase in background radiation! ;-)

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
| Pete Jones <[email protected]> wrote:
|
| >I find it amusing that the human shield volunteers who went to Iraq in a bus from London were
| >expecting to be placed in hospitals etc, but have found instead themselves lounging around in
| >refineries and industrial targets. It kind of shows where the regime's priorities are. It's
| >doubly ironic when you realise the Coalition is bending over backwards not to hit such targets,
| >in order to preserve a working infrastructure for after the war - even at the cost of its own
| >troops' lives.
|
| I read an interview with one of the volunteer human shields who went to Iraq. It was really pretty
| funny. He came back basically saying "nuke the *******". ;-)

An interesting read:

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/03/23/do2305.xml&sS
heet=/opinion/2003/03/23/ixop.html

--
Pete Fagerlin

Save Fruita trails! http://www.petefagerlin.com/bookcliffs.htm
 
Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>I don't know why this isn't blatantly clear to everyone but the US has a massive supply of chemical
>weapons. Did they produce these millions of tones of nerve agents for experimenting on rats? I
>don't think so.

Could you provide a citation for the above?

>They were developed as a deterrent to the Rusians which also had a vast supply. Fine, now why is
>this any different for Iraq to have a supply of these weapons and chemical suits when all their
>hostile neighbors also have these same weapons.

Check up on the current status of those WMD. You might be surprised.

> Yes Saddam has used them "on his own people" as the western media like to put it, clear sign that
> he's a mad man right? Not really, those were not really his own people. Saddams people are his
> military and those close to him, everyone else in the country is a conquered enemy, be it Kurds,
> Shiite muslims or whatever. Whenever he gets a whiff of a revolt brewing he kills them off. Nerve
> gas may be a more "evil" way of going about it but if he didn't have that he'd just bomb the hell
> out of them or gun them all down. Now if the US were to have a civil war in modern times, how
> subdued do you think bush's response to would be if his office was threatened by say most of the
> southern states moving north to kill him?

Are you saying "Saddam's not really such a bad guy"?

And besides, it would be the NORTHERN states that would attack Bush (remember, he's a Texan). ;-)

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>> can truly rid them of Saddam, and they are cooperating with the coalition efforts. Terror and
>> very real retribution threats kept them fairly well hidden and quiet for the first several days.
>>
>> And isn't it just interesting that Iraqi prisoners of war are being found with anthrax antidotes
>> on them. When was the last time America used anthrax? Hmmm...
>
>I think you'd have to ask the dead postal workers. All indications are that the Anthrax used was
>from a US lab.

They might fear opening a letter from the US, but I doubt they're too worried about us using Anthrax
on them. Saddam ordered this stuff long before the troops were massing at his borders.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] says...

>> Or Iraq. At the time, it looked as if Saddam might bring reform to Iraq. And Osama looked like a
>> better bet than Afghaistan becoming one of the "Russiastans".
>>
>> The stakes are different now, and Bush has served notice that "politics as usual" don't apply any
>> more. I expect there will be a lot more transparancy - but feel free to rub my nose in it if it
>> doesn't work out that way.
>
>I would say that in and around Baghdad you will find a lot of people that think Saddam is great,
>these people were enjoying the good life and only lost it when UN/Bush sanctions took effect.
>You'll find people in the USA that hate bush as much as much as the poor people of Iraq do, we only
>hear about them when they blow up a federal building or get their compound raided by the ATF and
>fortunately they don't populate entire southern towns or mountainous regions.

Or when Senator Daschle speaks. ;-) It's not too hard to find people who "hate Bush" (look around
here fr'instance). That's how our system is set up. We will know soon enough how much REAL support
Saddam has. No doubt there ARE those loyal to him - for whatever reason, and they are likely to
fight tooth and nail. Hopefully that's only a small percentage of the total.

>> Think how cool it will be if Iraq's very capable population cranks up an economy that makes
>> Israel look like an also-ran. That, IMHO will be the true measure of success.
>
>Well I don't know if you read those articles someone posted here yesterday about the Euro vs. the
>US dollar but the theory is if the sanctions were lifted and Iraqs economy cranked up while it was
>still trading oil in euros then Iraq and Iran (if and when it changed to euros also) would have it
>within their power to topple the USA without firing a shot.

Sounds pretty unlikely to me.

> Now like all things to do with the reasoning behind this war, it is just a theory, but it is a
> very credible one.

And you doubted Powell's evidence? ;-)

> Now I never hear word one about this on CNN, programs like moneyline still call the Euro
> irrelevant even though it has gone from $.88 US to $1.06 in 6 months. It is a recorded fact that
> Saddam managed to make himself a few billion dollars through what amounts to global insider
> trading with money the UN had control of by changing his 10 billion dollar reserve fund to euros
> and driving the value of a euro up with the small amount of oil the US/UN is letting him sell. If
> you had bought $1000 in euros before Saddam did that you would have an extra $200 in your pocket
> right now. I notice Tony Blair has sidelined his effort to get Britain to join the EU in the last
> year now that he's in bed with GW. I find that a little suspect.

10 billion is chump change in the grand scheme. And besides, Britain has very little to gain by
joining the EU.

>It would be very interesting if we could go back and play it all again to see if Bush would have
>Blair's support if they had gone to the Euro a year ago. Theory or not, if Iraq was the second
>largest exporter of oil again, and trading in euros, the rest of Opec would surly follow and the US
>dollar would be on a toilet paper spindle next to the Canadian dollar in bathrooms everywhere. So
>when Bush says "We will prevail", I really get the sense now that he's saying "We will prevail, no
>matter what we can't afford to stop until we have control of that oil or at least get it trading in
>US dollars again." Then again maybe I've giving him too much credit for knowing what's going on in
>his own administration.

I think you're buying into some pretty thin and speculative theories. Iraq's oil production is a
small percentage of the total. And don't forget that a weak US dollar is actually an advantage in
the global market - our products become more attractive, and there becomes an immediate resistance
to imported (more expensive) goods within the US. Could be a very good thing right now.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 26/3/03 3:47 am, in article [email protected], "Mark Hickey"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Think how cool it will be if Iraq's very capable population cranks up an economy that makes
>> Israel look like an also-ran. That, IMHO will be the true measure of success.
>
>You're kidding, right? Israel's economy is a basket case. You should know - your tax dollars are
>paying for it!

Compare the GNP with that of any Arab nation (minus the oil). I don't have the numbers in front of
me, but the figures I remember seeing were striking by comparison.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] says...

>> As soon as China and Russia are on board, KJI will be taken behind the woodshed. Until then, he's
>> more of a nuisance than a threat, IMHO. There's no possibility of him selling a nuke to someone
>> to use on us (since it would be easily traced back), and AFAIK he has no other chemical and
>> biological weapons programs. He's also not likely to want to actually fire a nuke at us, since
>> Pyonyang would get melted into a big glass ball if that happens - and he's not suicidal.

>Given most of his gear says Made in China or Made in the USSR on it I think they'll be having a
>good laugh about all this behind that wood shed. All he wants is his country out of the UN imposed
>poor house and he'll use whatever it he can get his hands on to force that result.

I think we agree on North Korea. Can I cross that one off my list now? ;-)

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
"P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> | Pete Jones <[email protected]> wrote:
> |
> | >I find it amusing that the human shield volunteers who went to Iraq in a bus from London were
> | >expecting to be placed in hospitals etc, but have found instead themselves lounging around in
> | >refineries and industrial targets. It kind of shows where the regime's priorities are. It's
> | >doubly ironic when you realise the Coalition is bending over backwards not to hit such targets,
> | >in order to preserve a working infrastructure for after the war - even at the cost of its own
> | >troops' lives.
> |
> | I read an interview with one of the volunteer human shields who went to Iraq. It was really
> | pretty funny. He came back basically saying "nuke the *******". ;-)
>
> An interesting read:
>
> http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/03/23/do2305.xml&sS
> heet=/opinion/2003/03/23/ixop.html

Is there an echo in here?

Try this one: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,922723,00.html

J.
 
Mark Hickey wrote:

>>Perhaps you don't understand this. NK does not have a problem with Russia or China, and vice
>>versa. NK's problem lies very much with the US.
>
>
> What the heck does the US have to do with it?

The US and Japan opened negotiations with Korea back in the early 90's in an attempt to pacify their
nuclear program.

We agreed to supply
> them heating oil and to help them build non-breeder reactors in exchange for their promise (hah)
> to shut down their nuclear program.

Except the US renaged on the promise of the reactors. Clinton kept open negotiations with them and
persuaded them to allow in UN inspectors and cameras in their nuclear plant. NK was co-operating and
relations were good. The Bush administration came in and immediately cut all ties, called them evil
and put more missiles in Alaska.

> They didn't, we pulled the plug. NK can go pound sand, AFAIC.

It was the US who pulled the plug, but Clinton still managed to keep them on the right side. It's
Bush who's ballsing everything up now.

>>But surely the damage would have been done by then? Why not take them out before that possibility
>>arises? Surely it would be in the best intersts to remove any possibility of these weapons being
>>used against the US, before the chance arises. Why, you could institute a regime change too.
>
>
> Let's wait for France to figure out what to do. Their steely resolve in the face of this kind of
> thing is always great to watch.

Nicely sidestepped. Why should a problem that the US created, and the US is the most likely target
for, be solved by other countries?

>>I agree with certain parts of your argument - KJI is playing a game at the moment, but it's a game
>>he's been forced in to by the US administration - the question is, how far can he be pushed?
>
>
> I disagree - the US tried to solve the issue with diplomacy and a whole lot of money. NK screwed
> the pooch.

Bzzt. Read up on the subject, I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

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