OT: Liberation(?) of Iraq?

[Shaun Rimmer]

Paladin <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> > > > > The side benefit of liberating the people is just extraneous icing on the cake.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So, not 'a near-heroic act' at all then.
> > > >
> > > Actually, YES, of course it is, when viewed from *their* perspective, which was the sole
> > > purpose of my post--to show that a single action can be viewed from many perspectives.
> >
> > Sounds like a re-direction after the fact to me ',;~}
>
> Not intentional,

OK, where's your independent source verified evidence to back up this claim?

> but I can usually turn on a dime when I realize I've stepped in it and then put my foot in
> my mouth.

Likewise - comes in handy......

> I got an email last night from an A-10 operator in So. Iraq who said the civilian population is
> finally coming around to believe that we can truly rid them of Saddam, and they are cooperating
> with the coalition efforts. Terror and very real retribution threats kept them fairly well hidden
> and quiet for the first several days.

Aye, well, if it's going to go at all, it might as well go the easier ways...

> And isn't it just interesting that Iraqi prisoners of war are being found with anthrax antidotes
> on them. When was the last time America used anthrax? Hmmm...

Heh - could just be psyching tactics on the part of the Iraqi's though, rather than a real
indication of their capabilities or intent.......

> > > Paladin Debate and discussion are good things.
> >
> > So, what do you make of these things in the light of the links Bomba
posted?

(About the Euro/$/etc.).

You still didn't comment on this bit here, and I'm interested to know your opinion ',;~}

Shaun aRe

 

[W K]

"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> Yes they are putting on a good show in exchange for aid packages from the USA but I don't except
> it will last long now that the US has no need to run a pipeline through Pakistan.

Wow. What an incredibly US-centric view of the world.

Whatever you think, the way Pakmanistan runs its self is more to do with the people of Pakmanistan
than good old uncle sam.

[Note: supposed Bushism]

 

[Shaun Rimmer]

Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> I think you're buying into some pretty thin and speculative theories. Iraq's oil production is a
> small percentage of the total. And don't forget that a weak US dollar is actually an advantage in
> the global market - our products become more attractive, and there becomes an immediate resistance
> to imported (more expensive) goods within the US. Could be a very good thing right now.

Mark, try reading the whole of both articles, written by, and with quoted material from, global
finance specialists and other individuals qualified to discuss the global money/money reserve
markets (etc.) - this ain't layman stuff 'dude'.

Shaun aRe

 

[Chris Phillipo]

> >I think you'd have to ask the dead postal workers. All indications are that the Anthrax used was
> >from a US lab.
>
> They might fear opening a letter from the US, but I doubt they're too worried about us using
> Anthrax on them. Saddam ordered this stuff long before the troops were massing at his borders.
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
>

You mean the chemical weapons components and helicopters the Regan administration sold him all
through the 80's paid for by interest free loans from the same administration? Now do we know how
long they've had those suits? Was there a UN resolution to destroy protective gear also?
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> "P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > | Pete Jones <[email protected]> wrote:
> > |
> > | >I find it amusing that the human shield volunteers who went to Iraq in a bus from London were
> > | >expecting to be placed in hospitals etc, but have found instead themselves lounging around in
> > | >refineries and industrial targets. It kind of shows where the regime's priorities are. It's
> > | >doubly ironic when you realise the Coalition is bending over backwards not to hit such
> > | >targets, in order to preserve a working infrastructure for after the war - even at the cost
> > | >of its own troops' lives.
> > |
> > | I read an interview with one of the volunteer human shields who went to Iraq. It was really
> > | pretty funny. He came back basically saying "nuke the *******". ;-)
> >
> > An interesting read:
> >
> > http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/03/23/do2305.xml&sS
> > heet=/opinion/2003/03/23/ixop.html
>
> Is there an echo in here?
>
> Try this one: http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,922723,00.html
>
> J.
>

That one is a bit confusing, the article says the old man was saying "We have no water and no
food...have you brought some electricity?" but if this is the same man that was on the CBC last
night it was translated as (and I'm paraphrasing here) "We have 6 months worth of food, what we need
is electricity and water and the Americans bombed that. All these people you see here (meaning those
fighting over the aid packages) have enough food also, they are just greedy idiots."

I wonder what percentage of those red crescent boxes are sitting in Republican Guard mess tents
right now.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I don't know why this isn't blatantly clear to everyone but the US has a massive supply of
> >chemical weapons. Did they produce these millions of tones of nerve agents for experimenting on
> >rats? I don't think so.
>
> Could you provide a citation for the above?

Well lets see, there is an estimated 3700 tones at the Umatilla Chemical Depot in Oregan, 13,600
tons at Deseret Chemical Depot in Utah, 2600 tones in Pueblo Chemical Depot Colorado. To name a few.
Now they don't have millions of tones on hand as far as I know, but millions of tones have been
produced and then disposed of (God only knows how) as they became obsolete. Since I assume your
country has a freedom of information act, you should find all this out for yourself. More
importantly they have the means to produce more on a whim and isn't that the biggest worry about
Iraq? That they will be able to make more at any time?

>
> >They were developed as a deterrent to the Rusians which also had a vast supply. Fine, now why is
> >this any different for Iraq to have a supply of these weapons and chemical suits when all their
> >hostile neighbors also have these same weapons.
>
> Check up on the current status of those WMD. You might be surprised.
>

Your weapons or Iraqs? The only two facts that are known right now is you have the largest supply in
the world and Iraq may or may not have any at all. Now the US is due to destroy it's supply by April
2007, why do you get so much time?

> Whenever he gets a whiff of a revolt brewing he kills them off. Nerve
> >gas may be a more "evil" way of going about it but if he didn't have that he'd just bomb the hell
> >out of them or gun them all down. Now if the US were to have a civil war in modern times, how
> >subdued do you think bush's response to would be if his office was threatened by say most of the
> >southern states moving north to kill him?
>
> Are you saying "Saddam's not really such a bad guy"?

I'm saying bush isn't a saint either, he just happens to enjoy a better political situation. You can
probably count on your hand the number of leaders in history that gave up their spot to a revolt or
coop peacefully.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

> Or when Senator Daschle speaks. ;-) It's not too hard to find people who "hate Bush" (look around
> here fr'instance). That's how our system is set up. We will know soon enough how much REAL support
> Saddam has. No doubt there ARE those loyal to him - for whatever reason, and they are likely to
> fight tooth and nail. Hopefully that's only a small percentage of the total.
>

Unless open season is declared on civilians I think it will only take a small percentage to cause
trouble for a long time.

> >> Think how cool it will be if Iraq's very capable population cranks up an economy that makes
> >> Israel look like an also-ran. That, IMHO will be the true measure of success.
> >
> >Well I don't know if you read those articles someone posted here yesterday about the Euro vs. the
> >US dollar but the theory is if the sanctions were lifted and Iraqs economy cranked up while it
> >was still trading oil in euros then Iraq and Iran (if and when it changed to euros also) would
> >have it within their power to topple the USA without firing a shot.
>
> Sounds pretty unlikely to me.

That's what analysts were saying about the Euro ever surpassing the dollar 6 months to a year ago.
>
> > Now like all things to do with the reasoning behind this war, it is just a theory, but it is a
> > very credible one.
>
> And you doubted Powell's evidence? ;-)

Powell is the only sane person at the whitehouse right now, if it weren't for him Bush would have
skipped his inauguration to get ready for the war on Iraq.

> 10 billion is chump change in the grand scheme. And besides, Britain has very little to gain by
> joining the EU.

You still don't get it, it's only 10 billion because of UN sanctions, if Iraq was allowed to sell as
much oil now as it did in the 80s, and do it in Euros, the dollar would be in the toilet for sure.
The USA was buying a quarter of their total production, now imagine if you actually had to pay for
that oil with money your country can't just print more of.

> I think you're buying into some pretty thin and speculative theories. Iraq's oil production is a
> small percentage of the total. And don't

Iraq's known oil cache is second only to Saudi Arabi. You keep basing your numbers on US/UN imposed
limits on production. Between them Iran and Iraq could out produce the rest of the Opec countries.

> forget that a weak US dollar is actually an advantage in the global market - our products become
> more attractive, and there becomes an immediate resistance to imported (more expensive) goods
> within the US. Could be a very good thing right now.

What does the US make that anyone needs in great quantity to survive? Crappy cars that are mostly
made in Mexico and Canada anyway? Oil, food, water, timber? The US doesn't run a MASSIVE trade
deficit year after year because it makes so much great stuff, it does so because you don't have the
resources left to support your country at it's current level of consumption. If the dollar does end
up having to compete with the Euro directly as the world's reserve currency you're going to have
soilders selling their guns for food because the governemnt is going to be busy trying to get out
from under that trillions in debt. To any other country in the world, 1/10th of the debt the USA has
would make them a 3rd world country, because every other country in the world has to buy US dollars,
they can't just print them.

By the way, anyone see that vein throbbing on Rumsfeld's head lately? I wonder if the war will end
before he has a heart attack.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >On 26/3/03 3:47 am, in article [email protected], "Mark Hickey"
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Think how cool it will be if Iraq's very capable population cranks up an economy that makes
> >> Israel look like an also-ran. That, IMHO will be the true measure of success.
> >
> >You're kidding, right? Israel's economy is a basket case. You should know - your tax dollars are
> >paying for it!
>
> Compare the GNP with that of any Arab nation (minus the oil). I don't have the numbers in front of
> me, but the figures I remember seeing were striking by comparison.
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
>
Pardon me but is the oil going to run out this weekend?
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>
> "Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
>
> > Yes they are putting on a good show in exchange for aid packages from the USA but I don't except
> > it will last long now that the US has no need to run a pipeline through Pakistan.
>
> Wow. What an incredibly US-centric view of the world.
>
> Whatever you think, the way Pakmanistan runs its self is more to do with the people of Pakmanistan
> than good old uncle sam.
>

Well I don't know about the people of Brahmanist, but the people of Pakistan evidently want a hard
line government that follows the Taliban's doctrine and tests nuclear weapons within the boarders of
it's small country. The newly elected leadership of Pakistan in the north loves Bin Laden and the
Taliban. I know people in the west can't believe that citizens of a country want such leadership but
they better wise up soon.

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

> >
> >Perhaps you don't understand this. NK does not have a problem with Russia or China, and vice
> >versa. NK's problem lies very much with the US.
>
> What the heck does the US have to do with it? We agreed to supply them heating oil and to help
> them build non-breeder reactors in exchange for their promise (hah) to shut down their nuclear
> program. They didn't, we pulled the plug. NK can go pound sand, AFAIC.
>

Funny thing about suppling people something that you took from them in the first place, they usually
aren't grateful.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Paladin]

"Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Paladin <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
> > > > > > The side benefit of liberating the people is just extraneous icing on the cake.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > So, not 'a near-heroic act' at all then.
> > > > >
> > > > Actually, YES, of course it is, when viewed from *their* perspective, which was the sole
> > > > purpose of my post--to show that a single action

> > > > can be viewed from many perspectives.
> > >
> > > Sounds like a re-direction after the fact to me ',;~}
> >
> > Not intentional,
>
> OK, where's your independent source verified evidence to back up this claim?
>
> > but I can usually turn on a dime when I realize I've stepped in it and then put my foot in my
> > mouth.
>
> Likewise - comes in handy......
>
>
> Heh - could just be psyching tactics on the part of the Iraqi's though, rather than a real
> indication of their capabilities or intent.......
>
> > > > Paladin Debate and discussion are good things.
> > >
> > > So, what do you make of these things in the light of the links Bomba
> posted?
>
> (About the Euro/$/etc.).
>
> You still didn't comment on this bit here, and I'm interested to know your opinion ',;~}
>
> Shaun aRe

I'm sorry, out of 300 threads or so, with work responsibilities, kid responsibilities, my own
play-time and laziness, early dinner with friends last night, lunch planning the Barneyville trip,
etc., etc., I haven't even SEEN these links. Maybe a better man than I could do it all, or better
yet, my wife, who tends to juggle a much busier schedule than me, and do it successfully, while
staying pretty and available for the wild thing upon demand, of course.

BTW, I'm VERY PROUD of Tony Blair and the way he conducted himself and articulated his country'd
position on the war this morning in the joint briefing and press conference. I wish our own top
bananna was as articulate.

Paladin

 

[Jeremy Henderso]

On 27/3/03 4:14 am, in article [email protected], "Mark Hickey"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 26/3/03 3:47 am, in article [email protected], "Mark Hickey"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Think how cool it will be if Iraq's very capable population cranks up an economy that makes
>>> Israel look like an also-ran. That, IMHO will be the true measure of success.
>>
>> You're kidding, right? Israel's economy is a basket case. You should know - your tax dollars are
>> paying for it!
>
> Compare the GNP with that of any Arab nation (minus the oil).

Hahaha - that's so dumb I don't think even YOU think it makes any sense! If you ignore the computer
stuff I'm richer than Bill Gates!

J.

 

[Chris Phillipo]

(minus the oil).
>
> Hahaha - that's so dumb I don't think even YOU think it makes any sense! If you ignore the
> computer stuff I'm richer than Bill Gates!
>
> J.
>
>

LMAO, I wonder if supermodels will buy that line.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Mark Hickey]

Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] says...

>> Check up on the current status of those WMD. You might be surprised.
>>
>
>Your weapons or Iraqs? The only two facts that are known right now is you have the largest supply
>in the world and Iraq may or may not have any at all. Now the US is due to destroy it's supply by
>April 2007, why do you get so much time?

Because we've never used them on anyone, nor is it likely we would.

>> Whenever he gets a whiff of a revolt brewing he kills them off. Nerve
>> >gas may be a more "evil" way of going about it but if he didn't have that he'd just bomb the
>> >hell out of them or gun them all down. Now if the US were to have a civil war in modern times,
>> >how subdued do you think bush's response to would be if his office was threatened by say most of
>> >the southern states moving north to kill him?
>>
>> Are you saying "Saddam's not really such a bad guy"?
>
>I'm saying bush isn't a saint either, he just happens to enjoy a better political situation.

You would really try to equate the morals of the two?

>You can probably count on your hand the number of leaders in history that gave up their spot to a
>revolt or coop peacefully.

Happens here every four or eight years, actually.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

[email protected] (Paladin) wrote:

>I'm sorry, out of 300 threads or so, with work responsibilities, kid responsibilities, my own
>play-time and laziness, early dinner with friends last night, lunch planning the Barneyville trip,
>etc., etc., I haven't even SEEN these links. Maybe a better man than I could do it all, or better
>yet, my wife, who tends to juggle a much busier schedule than me, and do it successfully, while
>staying pretty and available for the wild thing upon demand, of course.
>
>BTW, I'm VERY PROUD of Tony Blair and the way he conducted himself and articulated his country'd
>position on the war this morning in the joint briefing and press conference. I wish our own top
>bananna was as articulate.

I think Bush comes off as resolute, but Blair comes off as passionate about it. When he's being
grilled about the threat Iraq poses, you can TELL he wants to blurt out something he knows, but
can't divluge.

That's why I'd NEVER make it in politics. ;-)

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>> >I think you'd have to ask the dead postal workers. All indications are that the Anthrax used was
>> >from a US lab.
>>
>> They might fear opening a letter from the US, but I doubt they're too worried about us using
>> Anthrax on them. Saddam ordered this stuff long before the troops were massing at his borders.

>You mean the chemical weapons components and helicopters the Regan administration sold him all
>through the 80's paid for by interest free loans from the same administration?

Yep.

>Now do we know how long they've had those suits? Was there a UN resolution to destroy protective
>gear also?

Not that I know of, but Iraq ordered a HUGE quantity of antidote recently (don't have the specifics
on hand - you'll have to trust me on that).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

"Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> I think you're buying into some pretty thin and speculative theories. Iraq's oil production is
>> a small percentage of the total. And don't forget that a weak US dollar is actually an
>> advantage in the global market - our products become more attractive, and there becomes an
>> immediate resistance to imported (more expensive) goods within the US. Could be a very good
>> thing right now.
>
>Mark, try reading the whole of both articles, written by, and with quoted material from, global
>finance specialists and other individuals qualified to discuss the global money/money reserve
>markets (etc.) - this ain't layman stuff 'dude'.

I skimmed the article, and read some commentary on it, which judged it to be pretty thin logic
indeed (my initial take on it too). If I get time I'll try to get through the whole thing in detail.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Or when Senator Daschle speaks. ;-) It's not too hard to find people who "hate Bush" (look around
>> here fr'instance). That's how our system is set up. We will know soon enough how much REAL
>> support Saddam has. No doubt there ARE those loyal to him - for whatever reason, and they are
>> likely to fight tooth and nail. Hopefully that's only a small percentage of the total.

>Unless open season is declared on civilians I think it will only take a small percentage to cause
>trouble for a long time.

You could be right. I can only hope that Iraqi public opinion will help moderate the radicals.

>> 10 billion is chump change in the grand scheme. And besides, Britain has very little to gain by
>> joining the EU.
>
>You still don't get it, it's only 10 billion because of UN sanctions, if Iraq was allowed to sell
>as much oil now as it did in the 80s, and do it in Euros, the dollar would be in the toilet for
>sure. The USA was buying a quarter of their total production, now imagine if you actually had to
>pay for that oil with money your country can't just print more of.

>Iraq's known oil cache is second only to Saudi Arabi. You keep basing your numbers on US/UN imposed
>limits on production. Between them Iran and Iraq could out produce the rest of the Opec countries.

I'll try to go back and read that article in depth. I only skimmed it and it seemed a bit
far-fetched to me at first glance. I'll try to give it some more time for an in-depth read soon.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] says...
>> Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >On 26/3/03 3:47 am, in article [email protected], "Mark Hickey"
>> ><[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Think how cool it will be if Iraq's very capable population cranks up an economy that makes
>> >> Israel look like an also-ran. That, IMHO will be the true measure of success.
>> >
>> >You're kidding, right? Israel's economy is a basket case. You should know - your tax dollars are
>> >paying for it!
>>
>> Compare the GNP with that of any Arab nation (minus the oil). I don't have the numbers in front
>> of me, but the figures I remember seeing were striking by comparison.

>Pardon me but is the oil going to run out this weekend?

No, but it's like comparing Nelson Rockerfeller and Jed Clampett. One has built an financial empire,
and the other was "out shootin' at some food, and up from the ground came'a bub-ul-lun crude". ;-)

(For those of you who aren't familiar with 'The Beverly Hillbillies', just consider yourselves
blessed and assume my comparison is a pithy one).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Compare the GNP with that of any Arab nation (minus the oil).
>
>Hahaha - that's so dumb I don't think even YOU think it makes any sense! If you ignore the computer
>stuff I'm richer than Bill Gates!

See my previous post (re 'The Beverly Hillbillies').

Say I bust my butt, earn an advanced MBA, build a corporation from the ground up and produce
technology and products used the world over. I buy a million dollar house in Durango and a Hummer.

My neighbor bought a lottery ticket for $1 and hit the big one. He won $1.5 million dollars and
bought an identical house and SUV.

Thing is, ten years from now, I'll still have my house and a newer Hummer and a summer place in
Spain. This is because my corporation is still running and growing - producing things people need.

My neighbor's house will be falling down around his ears and his Hummer won't start no mo'. This is
because my neighbor's limited resource (money or oil - take your pick) ran out and he hadn't
bothered to come up with a contingency plan.

Over-simplified? A bit. But take away the oil and many of the middle eastern "power states" would
have as much relevance as those nations you know are somewhere in Africa but can't ever seem to
find on a map.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame