OT: Liberation(?) of Iraq?

[Mark Hickey]

bomba <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey wrote:
>
>>>Perhaps you don't understand this. NK does not have a problem with Russia or China, and vice
>>>versa. NK's problem lies very much with the US.
>>
>> What the heck does the US have to do with it?
>
>The US and Japan opened negotiations with Korea back in the early 90's in an attempt to pacify
>their nuclear program.

OK, it didn't work. Next negotiator, please...

>>We agreed to supply them heating oil and to help them build non-breeder reactors in exchange for
>>their promise (hah) to shut down their nuclear program.
>
>Except the US renaged on the promise of the reactors. Clinton kept open negotiations with them and
>persuaded them to allow in UN inspectors and cameras in their nuclear plant. NK was co-operating
>and relations were good. The Bush administration came in and immediately cut all ties, called them
>evil and put more missiles in Alaska.
>
>> They didn't, we pulled the plug. NK can go pound sand, AFAIC.
>
>It was the US who pulled the plug, but Clinton still managed to keep them on the right side. It's
>Bush who's ballsing everything up now.

You left out one teeny tiny little fact. NK just admitted that they are still developing nuclear
weapons. Oops. Why would we NOT cancel the "oil for cooperation" program?

>>>But surely the damage would have been done by then? Why not take them out before that possibility
>>>arises? Surely it would be in the best intersts to remove any possibility of these weapons being
>>>used against the US, before the chance arises. Why, you could institute a regime change too.
>>
>> Let's wait for France to figure out what to do. Their steely resolve in the face of this kind of
>> thing is always great to watch.
>
>Nicely sidestepped. Why should a problem that the US created, and the US is the most likely target
>for, be solved by other countries?

Oh, trying to solve someone else's problem makes it ours permanently? I thought you were against the
"unilateral approach".

>>>I agree with certain parts of your argument - KJI is playing a game at the moment, but it's a
>>>game he's been forced in to by the US administration - the question is, how far can he be pushed?
>>
>> I disagree - the US tried to solve the issue with diplomacy and a whole lot of money. NK screwed
>> the pooch.
>
>Bzzt. Read up on the subject, I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

Read up on NK's admissions about their nuclear program. It would almost be comical if it weren't so
dangerous.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>> >Perhaps you don't understand this. NK does not have a problem with Russia or China, and vice
>> >versa. NK's problem lies very much with the US.
>>
>> What the heck does the US have to do with it? We agreed to supply them heating oil and to help
>> them build non-breeder reactors in exchange for their promise (hah) to shut down their nuclear
>> program. They didn't, we pulled the plug. NK can go pound sand, AFAIC.
>
>Funny thing about suppling people something that you took from them in the first place, they
>usually aren't grateful.

I'll bite. What did we "take from them in the first place"?

Maybe the competent barbers?

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>(minus the oil).
>>
>> Hahaha - that's so dumb I don't think even YOU think it makes any sense! If you ignore the
>> computer stuff I'm richer than Bill Gates!

>LMAO, I wonder if supermodels will buy that line.

Supermodels, football players, rap artists. They all share something the "oil economy states"
share - a very limited resource that makes them much more important than they would be otherwise.
For a while.

Bill Gates would be more like the Israeli economy.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Jeremy Henderso]

On 28/3/03 5:49 am, in article [email protected], "Mark Hickey"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> (minus the oil).
>>>
>>> Hahaha - that's so dumb I don't think even YOU think it makes any sense! If you ignore the
>>> computer stuff I'm richer than Bill Gates!
>
>> LMAO, I wonder if supermodels will buy that line.
>
> Supermodels, football players, rap artists. They all share something the "oil economy states"
> share - a very limited resource that makes them much more important than they would be otherwise.

Money.

J.

 

[Jeremy Henderso]

On 28/3/03 5:49 am, in article [email protected], "Mark Hickey"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Compare the GNP with that of any Arab nation (minus the oil).
>>
>> Hahaha - that's so dumb I don't think even YOU think it makes any sense! If you ignore the
>> computer stuff I'm richer than Bill Gates!
>
> See my previous post (re 'The Beverly Hillbillies').
>
> Say I bust my butt, earn an advanced MBA, build a corporation from the ground up and produce
> technology and products used the world over. I buy a million dollar house in Durango and a Hummer.
>
> My neighbor bought a lottery ticket for $1 and hit the big one. He won $1.5 million dollars and
> bought an identical house and SUV.
>
> Thing is, ten years from now, I'll still have my house and a newer Hummer and a summer place in
> Spain. This is because my corporation is still running and growing - producing things people need.
>
> My neighbor's house will be falling down around his ears and his Hummer won't start no mo'. This
> is because my neighbor's limited resource (money or oil - take your pick) ran out and he hadn't
> bothered to come up with a contingency plan.
>
> Over-simplified? A bit. But take away the oil and many of the middle eastern "power states" would
> have as much relevance as those nations you know are somewhere in Africa but can't ever seem to
> find on a map.

That's true of any country. If you'd gone back 200 years and taken away the coal, Britain would
probably be down the ladder of development, instead of being Dubya's Numero Uno poodle.

J.

 

[Shaun Rimmer]

Paladin <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> > > > So, what do you make of these things in the light of the links Bomba
> > posted?
> >
> > (About the Euro/$/etc.).
> >
> > You still didn't comment on this bit here, and I'm interested to know
your
> > opinion ',;~}
> >
> > Shaun aRe
>
> I'm sorry, out of 300 threads or so, with work responsibilities, kid responsibilities, my own
> play-time and laziness, early dinner with friends last night, lunch planning the Barneyville trip,
> etc., etc., I haven't even SEEN these links. Maybe a better man than I could do it all, or better
> yet, my wife, who tends to juggle a much busier schedule than me, and do it successfully, while
> staying pretty and available for the wild thing upon demand, of course.

It woulda taken less time to find the links than to write all that P ',;~}

> BTW, I'm VERY PROUD of Tony Blair and the way he conducted himself and articulated his country'd
> position on the war this morning in the joint briefing and press conference. I wish our own top
> bananna was as articulate.

Tony Blair is a big bottom pimple who's in possession of some reasonable acting skills, and who gets
angry when his decisions are questioned (at the very best). Some people make the mistake of taking
this as 'passion'.

I really don't like the guy, or the way he conducts his politics.

Shaun aRe

 

[Shaun Rimmer]

Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Or when Senator Daschle speaks. ;-) It's not too hard to find people who "hate Bush" (look
> >> around here fr'instance). That's how our system is set up. We will know soon enough how much
> >> REAL support Saddam has. No doubt there ARE those loyal to him - for whatever reason, and they
> >> are likely to fight tooth and nail. Hopefully that's only a small percentage of the total.
>
> >Unless open season is declared on civilians I think it will only take a small percentage to cause
> >trouble for a long time.
>
> You could be right. I can only hope that Iraqi public opinion will help moderate the radicals.
>
> >> 10 billion is chump change in the grand scheme. And besides, Britain has very little to gain by
> >> joining the EU.
> >
> >You still don't get it, it's only 10 billion because of UN sanctions, if Iraq was allowed to sell
> >as much oil now as it did in the 80s, and do it in Euros, the dollar would be in the toilet for
> >sure. The USA was buying a quarter of their total production, now imagine if you actually had to
> >pay for that oil with money your country can't just print more of.
>
> >Iraq's known oil cache is second only to Saudi Arabi. You keep basing your numbers on US/UN
> >imposed limits on production. Between them Iran and Iraq could out produce the rest of the Opec
> >countries.
>
> I'll try to go back and read that article in depth. I only skimmed it and it seemed a bit
> far-fetched to me at first glance. I'll try to give it some more time for an in-depth read soon.

Definitely - good on you Mark for at least trying to keep an open mind. I have not taken the
article(s) as fact, not in the least, but it does seem to make a lot of sense, and it fits neatly
into the peculiar empty information space that's had me worried over the motives of this war from
the beginning - _something_ has smelled fishy from the start, some things just haven't tallied up
(hence my stance against this war).

Shaun aRe

 

[Jeremy]

Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Compare the GNP with that of any Arab nation (minus the oil).
> >
> >Hahaha - that's so dumb I don't think even YOU think it makes any sense! If you ignore the
> >computer stuff I'm richer than Bill Gates!

[...]

> Over-simplified? A bit. But take away the oil and many of the middle eastern "power states" would
> have as much relevance as those nations you know are somewhere in Africa but can't ever seem to
> find on a map.

Just for fun, here are some statistics. If they can lose their addiction to fighting, it's possible
that Israel might some day leave the category of basket cases.

Israel Saudi Jordan Current-account balance (US$ bn) -1.4 14.8 0.1
% of GDP -1.3 8.9 1.7
Exports of goods fob (US$ bn) 30.8 80.1 1.9 Imports of goods fob (US$ bn) -34.2 -34.2 -4.0 External
debt (US$ bn) 42.9 35.9 8.9

 

[Mark Hickey]

"Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote

>> I'll try to go back and read that article in depth. I only skimmed it and it seemed a bit
>> far-fetched to me at first glance. I'll try to give it some more time for an in-depth read soon.
>
>Definitely - good on you Mark for at least trying to keep an open mind. I have not taken the
>article(s) as fact, not in the least, but it does seem to make a lot of sense, and it fits neatly
>into the peculiar empty information space that's had me worried over the motives of this war from
>the beginning - _something_ has smelled fishy from the start, some things just haven't tallied up
>(hence my stance against this war).

There have been a confusing number of "reasons" for the war articulated, and an enormous amount of
"evidence". Some of the "reasons" aren't very significant (on the grand scale) and some of the
evidence is going to be misapplied, misunderstood, or misanalyzed. Add to that any misinformation
campaign Iraq may be running.

It's also easy enough to distrust polititians and their motives.

But this goes back to my assertion that "if you look hard enough for demons, you'll find them
whether they're there or not".

And remember - when it comes to Iraq it's hardly like the current situation just sprung out
of thin air.

The UN Security council was united when:

- they told Iraq to get out of Kuwait
- they authorized the US and allies to get them Iraq out of Kuwait
- they set down disarmament terms for the cease fire agreement
- they issued resolution after resolution to enforce disarmament
- they issued resolution 1441 to give Saddam a final chance to disarm

To me the only "fishy smelling thing" is why the process diverged after all the above.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:

>"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Over-simplified? A bit. But take away the oil and many of the middle eastern "power states" would
>> have as much relevance as those nations you know are somewhere in Africa but can't ever seem to
>> find on a map.
>
>That's true of any country. If you'd gone back 200 years and taken away the coal, Britain would
>probably be down the ladder of development, instead of being Dubya's Numero Uno poodle.

There are exceptions. Japan is very natural resource poor, but they built a thriving economy. On a
smaller scale, Singapore has nothing going for it but "location, location, location".

And the difference is that England didn't sit back and ride on its coal economy - they became an
industrial superpower so the passing of the coal economy wasn't the end of the British economy.
That's not happening in many of the oil producing countries.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Shaun Rimmer]

Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >> I'll try to go back and read that article in depth. I only skimmed it and it seemed a bit
> >> far-fetched to me at first glance. I'll try to give it some more time for an in-depth read
> >> soon.
> >
> >Definitely - good on you Mark for at least trying to keep an open mind. I have not taken the
> >article(s) as fact, not in the least, but it does seem
to
> >make a lot of sense, and it fits neatly into the peculiar empty
information
> >space that's had me worried over the motives of this war from the beginning - _something_ has
> >smelled fishy from the start, some things
just
> >haven't tallied up (hence my stance against this war).
>
> There have been a confusing number of "reasons" for the war articulated, and an enormous amount of
> "evidence". Some of the "reasons" aren't very significant (on the grand scale) and some of the
> evidence is going to be misapplied, misunderstood, or misanalyzed. Add to that any misinformation
> campaign Iraq may be running.
>
> It's also easy enough to distrust polititians and their motives.
>
> But this goes back to my assertion that "if you look hard enough for demons, you'll find them
> whether they're there or not".
>
> And remember - when it comes to Iraq it's hardly like the current situation just sprung out of
> thin air.
>
> The UN Security council was united when:
>
> - they told Iraq to get out of Kuwait
> - they authorized the US and allies to get them Iraq out of Kuwait
> - they set down disarmament terms for the cease fire agreement
> - they issued resolution after resolution to enforce disarmament
> - they issued resolution 1441 to give Saddam a final chance to disarm

Aye, all the above as read, but there is something going on behind that which is being held forth,
or our gov's would have given their reasoning and stuck to it, instead of repeatedly changing their
stories/generally doing a jig.

> To me the only "fishy smelling thing" is why the process diverged after all the above.

Shaun aRe

 

[Chris Phillipo]

> >Now do we know how long they've had those suits? Was there a UN resolution to destroy protective
> >gear also?
>
> Not that I know of, but Iraq ordered a HUGE quantity of antidote recently (don't have the
> specifics on hand - you'll have to trust me on that).
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
>
Did they get them from the same US comanies that sold them the chemical weapons components in the
first place or did they come from one of those "axis of evil nations" like France or Russia? I guess
it doesn't really matter.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> >> I think you're buying into some pretty thin and speculative theories. Iraq's oil production is
> >> a small percentage of the total. And don't forget that a weak US dollar is actually an
> >> advantage in the global market - our products become more attractive, and there becomes an
> >> immediate resistance to imported (more expensive) goods within the US. Could be a very good
> >> thing right now.
> >
> >Mark, try reading the whole of both articles, written by, and with quoted material from, global
> >finance specialists and other individuals qualified to discuss the global money/money reserve
> >markets (etc.) - this ain't layman stuff 'dude'.
>
> I skimmed the article, and read some commentary on it, which judged it to be pretty thin
> logic indeed (my initial take on it too). If I get time I'll try to get through the whole
> thing in detail.
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
>

Well I'm glad you skimmed "the" article, what you shold have done was search for more like it and
there are plenty. If only Bush new how to Google...
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >[email protected] says...
> >> Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 26/3/03 3:47 am, in article [email protected], "Mark Hickey"
> >> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Think how cool it will be if Iraq's very capable population cranks up an economy that makes
> >> >> Israel look like an also-ran. That, IMHO will be the true measure of success.
> >> >
> >> >You're kidding, right? Israel's economy is a basket case. You should know - your tax dollars
> >> >are paying for it!
> >>
> >> Compare the GNP with that of any Arab nation (minus the oil). I don't have the numbers in front
> >> of me, but the figures I remember seeing were striking by comparison.
>
> >Pardon me but is the oil going to run out this weekend?
>
> No, but it's like comparing Nelson Rockerfeller and Jed Clampett. One has built an financial
> empire, and the other was "out shootin' at some food, and up from the ground came'a bub-ul-lun
> crude". ;-)
>

So which one is Jed Clampett??? Is it Iraq, a bunch of poor sand farmers who lucked into some oil or
Israel, a bunch of persecuted jews that got a free country and army on the USA's tab?

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Compare the GNP with that of any Arab nation (minus the oil).
> >
> >Hahaha - that's so dumb I don't think even YOU think it makes any sense! If you ignore the
> >computer stuff I'm richer than Bill Gates!
>
> See my previous post (re 'The Beverly Hillbillies').
>
> Say I bust my butt, earn an advanced MBA, build a corporation from the ground up and produce
> technology and products used the world over. I buy a million dollar house in Durango and a Hummer.
>
> My neighbor bought a lottery ticket for $1 and hit the big one. He won $1.5 million dollars and
> bought an identical house and SUV.
>

Again I ask which of the two countries to you think is the one that did all this hard work?

> My neighbor's house will be falling down around his ears and his Hummer won't start no mo'. This
> is because my neighbor's limited resource (money or oil - take your pick) ran out and he hadn't
> bothered to come up with a contingency plan.

Ok I pick oil for Iraq and US monitary gifts to Isreal for $500 Alex.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote
>
> >> I'll try to go back and read that article in depth. I only skimmed it and it seemed a bit
> >> far-fetched to me at first glance. I'll try to give it some more time for an in-depth read
> >> soon.
> >
> >Definitely - good on you Mark for at least trying to keep an open mind. I have not taken the
> >article(s) as fact, not in the least, but it does seem to make a lot of sense, and it fits neatly
> >into the peculiar empty information space that's had me worried over the motives of this war from
> >the beginning - _something_ has smelled fishy from the start, some things just haven't tallied up
> >(hence my stance against this war).
>
> There have been a confusing number of "reasons" for the war articulated, and an enormous amount of
> "evidence". Some of the "reasons" aren't very significant (on the grand scale) and some of the
> evidence is going to be misapplied, misunderstood, or misanalyzed. Add to that any misinformation
> campaign Iraq may be running.
>
> It's also easy enough to distrust polititians and their motives.
>
> But this goes back to my assertion that "if you look hard enough for demons, you'll find them
> whether they're there or not".
>
> And remember - when it comes to Iraq it's hardly like the current situation just sprung out of
> thin air.
>
> The UN Security council was united when:
>
> - they told Iraq to get out of Kuwait
> - they authorized the US and allies to get them Iraq out of Kuwait
> - they set down disarmament terms for the cease fire agreement
> - they issued resolution after resolution to enforce disarmament
> - they issued resolution 1441 to give Saddam a final chance to disarm
>
> To me the only "fishy smelling thing" is why the process diverged after all the above.
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
>

It diverged a lot earlier than that when they let Iraq break the cease fire in 91 and set the
UN/Iraqi reserve fund up in such a way that it employees over 350 people at the UN through hundred
of millions of dollars in commissions on the sale of Iraqi oil. Heck, the only angle I haven't
figured out yet is what the Israelis are gong to get out of all this as a "thanks for staying home"
complimentary gift.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Jeremy Henderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Over-simplified? A bit. But take away the oil and many of the middle eastern "power states"
> >> would have as much relevance as those nations you know are somewhere in Africa but can't ever
> >> seem to find on a map.
> >
> >That's true of any country. If you'd gone back 200 years and taken away the coal, Britain would
> >probably be down the ladder of development, instead of being Dubya's Numero Uno poodle.
>
> There are exceptions. Japan is very natural resource poor, but they built a thriving economy. On a
> smaller scale, Singapore has nothing going for it but "location, location, location".
>

And Israel is the worlds leading exporter of....concrete barriers and beard trimmers I guess?
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >(minus the oil).
> >>
> >> Hahaha - that's so dumb I don't think even YOU think it makes any sense! If you ignore the
> >> computer stuff I'm richer than Bill Gates!
>
> >LMAO, I wonder if supermodels will buy that line.
>
> Supermodels, football players, rap artists. They all share something the "oil economy states"
> share - a very limited resource that makes them much more important than they would be otherwise.
> For a while.

Well the only "resource" the USA exports more than is imports is US dollars so what exactly ar eyou
getting at? The fall of the USA within ten years?

> Bill Gates would be more like the Israeli economy.
>

They do have a lot of computer geeks but I don't think they are making any money off their geekdom.
Otherwise I still don't have a clue what you are getting at. What has Israel built besides walls and
tanks with US money?

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >[email protected] says...
>
> >> Check up on the current status of those WMD. You might be surprised.
> >>
> >
> >Your weapons or Iraqs? The only two facts that are known right now is you have the largest supply
> >in the world and Iraq may or may not have any at all. Now the US is due to destroy it's supply by
> >April 2007, why do you get so much time?
>
> Because we've never used them on anyone, nor is it likely we would.
>

Says you. Then you interview the average joe sixpack who also happens to make up the bulk of the
armed forces and you ask him what he would do if Russians were streaming in from Mexico and Canada,
taking his towns one by one, would he keep the fight nice and conventional?

> >I'm saying bush isn't a saint either, he just happens to enjoy a better political situation.
>
> You would really try to equate the morals of the two?
>
> >You can probably count on your hand the number of leaders in history that gave up their spot to a
> >revolt or coop peacefully.
>
> Happens here every four or eight years, actually.

Trading one special interest puppet for another on a regular basis does not a revolt or coop make.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Mark Hickey]

Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] says...

>> No, but it's like comparing Nelson Rockerfeller and Jed Clampett. One has built an financial
>> empire, and the other was "out shootin' at some food, and up from the ground came'a bub-ul-lun
>> crude". ;-)
>>
>
>So which one is Jed Clampett??? Is it Iraq, a bunch of poor sand farmers who lucked into some oil
>or Israel, a bunch of persecuted jews that got a free country and army on the USA's tab?

The one that has any economy at all other than oil.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame