OT: Liberation(?) of Iraq?

[Mark Hickey]

[email protected] (Jeremy) wrote:

>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Over-simplified? A bit. But take away the oil and many of the middle eastern "power states" would
>> have as much relevance as those nations you know are somewhere in Africa but can't ever seem to
>> find on a map.

>Just for fun, here are some statistics. If they can lose their addiction to fighting, it's possible
>that Israel might some day leave the category of basket cases.
>
>
> Israel Saudi Jordan Current-account balance (US$ bn) -1.4 14.8 0.1
>% of GDP -1.3 8.9 1.7
>Exports of goods fob (US$ bn) 30.8 80.1 1.9 Imports of goods fob (US$ bn) -34.2 -34.2 -4.0 External
>debt (US$ bn) 42.9 35.9 8.9

For even more fun, check out these statistics:

http://i-cias.com/e.o/map_gnp.htm

http://i-cias.com/e.o/map_gnp_capita.htm

Those who think the entire Israeli economy is based on US-supplied welfare payments don't understand
that the aid constitutes about $600 million in economic aid per year, against a GNP of well over
$100 billion.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>Ok I pick oil for Iraq and US monitary gifts to Isreal for $500 Alex.

Or about 1/2 of 1% of the GNP of Israel.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Cleanbean]

"Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Paladin <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>
> > > > > So, what do you make of these things in the light of the links
Bomba
> > > posted?
> > >
> > > (About the Euro/$/etc.).
> > >
> > > You still didn't comment on this bit here, and I'm interested to know
> your
> > > opinion ',;~}
> > >
> > > Shaun aRe
> >
> > I'm sorry, out of 300 threads or so, with work responsibilities, kid responsibilities, my own
> > play-time and laziness, early dinner with friends last night, lunch planning the Barneyville
> > trip, etc., etc., I haven't even SEEN these links. Maybe a better man than I could do it all, or
> > better yet, my wife, who tends to juggle a much busier schedule than me, and do it successfully,
> > while staying pretty and available for the wild thing upon demand, of course.
>
> It woulda taken less time to find the links than to write all that P ',;~}
>
> > BTW, I'm VERY PROUD of Tony Blair and the way he conducted himself and articulated his country'd
> > position on the war this morning in the joint briefing and press conference. I wish our own top
> > bananna was as articulate.
>
> Tony Blair is a big bottom pimple who's in possession of some reasonable acting skills, and who
> gets angry when his decisions are questioned (at
the
> very best). Some people make the mistake of taking this as 'passion'.
>
> I really don't like the guy, or the way he conducts his politics.
>
>
>
> Shaun aRe
>
Shaun, is there any authority you do agree with?

Cleanbean

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> >Nicely sidestepped. Why should a problem that the US created, and the US is the most likely
> >target for, be solved by other countries?
>
> Oh, trying to solve someone else's problem makes it ours permanently? I thought you were against
> the "unilateral approach".
>
> >>>I agree with certain parts of your argument - KJI is playing a game at the moment, but it's a
> >>>game he's been forced in to by the US administration - the question is, how far can he be
> >>>pushed?
> >>
> >> I disagree - the US tried to solve the issue with diplomacy and a whole lot of money. NK
> >> screwed the pooch.
> >
> >Bzzt. Read up on the subject, I'm not going to keep repeating myself.
>
> Read up on NK's admissions about their nuclear program. It would almost be comical if it weren't
> so dangerous.
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
>
>

Explain to me again your position on why Iraq is more dangerous than NK then?
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> >Perhaps you don't understand this. NK does not have a problem with Russia or China, and vice
> >> >versa. NK's problem lies very much with the US.
> >>
> >> What the heck does the US have to do with it? We agreed to supply them heating oil and to help
> >> them build non-breeder reactors in exchange for their promise (hah) to shut down their nuclear
> >> program. They didn't, we pulled the plug. NK can go pound sand, AFAIC.
> >
> >Funny thing about suppling people something that you took from them in the first place, they
> >usually aren't grateful.
>
> I'll bite. What did we "take from them in the first place"?
>
> Maybe the competent barbers?
>

Trade embargo, hello??? Since the end of the Korean war North Korea has had only the food, oil and
money the US says it can have, which ain't much. There are people starving there and there's a fuel
shortage the likes of which the western world has never seen. I think you better check your time
line as to when NK started up it's nuclear weapon program again. This is mainstream media sort of
facts here Mark, you don't even have to go digging under the right wing to know this stuff, even CNN
reports it. You do realize that the same thing was being done to Japan when they decided to strike
Pearl Harbor. No, nothing to worry about there.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Jeremy Henderso]

On 28/3/03 3:14 pm, in article [email protected], "Mark Hickey"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Ok I pick oil for Iraq and US monitary gifts to Isreal for $500 Alex.
>
> Or about 1/2 of 1% of the GNP of Israel.

Now figure in the value of loan guarantees.

J.

 

[Paladin]

"Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Paladin <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>
> > > > > So, what do you make of these things in the light of the links Bomba
> > > posted?
> > >
> > > (About the Euro/$/etc.).
> > >
> > > You still didn't comment on this bit here, and I'm interested to know
> your
> > > opinion ',;~}
> > >
> > > Shaun aRe
> >
> > I'm sorry, out of 300 threads or so, with work responsibilities, kid responsibilities, my own
> > play-time and laziness, early dinner with friends last night, lunch planning the Barneyville
> > trip, etc., etc., I haven't even SEEN these links. Maybe a better man than I could do it all, or
> > better yet, my wife, who tends to juggle a much busier schedule than me, and do it successfully,
> > while staying pretty and available for the wild thing upon demand, of course.
>
> It woulda taken less time to find the links than to write all that P ',;~}
>
> > BTW, I'm VERY PROUD of Tony Blair and the way he conducted himself and articulated his country'd
> > position on the war this morning in the joint briefing and press conference. I wish our own top
> > bananna was as articulate.
>
> Tony Blair is a big bottom pimple who's in possession of some reasonable acting skills, and who
> gets angry when his decisions are questioned (at the very best). Some people make the mistake of
> taking this as 'passion'.
>
> I really don't like the guy, or the way he conducts his politics.
>
>
>
> Shaun aRe

Tell me what you really think, no PC euphemisms this time. BTW, did you like Maggie Thatcher?

paladin

 

[Bb]

On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:54:54 -0000, Shaun Rimmer wrote:

> Aye, all the above as read, but there is something going on behind that which is being held forth,
> or our gov's would have given their reasoning and stuck to it, instead of repeatedly changing
> their stories/generally doing a jig.

I agree. I keep feeling that everything I'm hearing is just spin, and not very good spin. War is
serious business, and if countries are going to commit to it, it should be easy for their leaders to
explain the reasons why they're doing it at that particular time.

Being an absurd optimist, I'm hoping for Paladin's notion that our government knew some danger was
imminent, and security was too tight to share it with three Security Council members (but it was OK
to share it with 39 other countries). Not only would that redeem our leadership for starting this
war, it would make for some really enjoyable political tap-dancing in the future.

And here's the quote of the day:

" You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a black
guy, France is accusing the US of arrogance and Germany doesn't want to go to war."

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)

 

[Chris Phillipo]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> [email protected] (Jeremy) wrote:
>
> >Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Over-simplified? A bit. But take away the oil and many of the middle eastern "power states"
> >> would have as much relevance as those nations you know are somewhere in Africa but can't ever
> >> seem to find on a map.
>
> >Just for fun, here are some statistics. If they can lose their addiction to fighting, it's
> >possible that Israel might some day leave the category of basket cases.
> >
> >
> > Israel Saudi Jordan Current-account balance (US$ bn) -1.4 14.8 0.1
> >% of GDP -1.3 8.9 1.7
> >Exports of goods fob (US$ bn) 30.8 80.1 1.9 Imports of goods fob (US$ bn) -34.2 -34.2 -4.0
> >External debt (US$ bn) 42.9 35.9 8.9
>
> For even more fun, check out these statistics:
>
> http://i-cias.com/e.o/map_gnp.htm
>
> http://i-cias.com/e.o/map_gnp_capita.htm
>
> Those who think the entire Israeli economy is based on US-supplied welfare payments don't
> understand that the aid constitutes about $600 million in economic aid per year, against a GNP of
> well over $100 billion.
>
> Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
>

As much as I enjoy economic info from a web site with casino pop-up ads...

First off, you have to remember that the UN/US created this country, from nothing, in 1948. It was
not built up by a bunch of hard working farmers or ingenious civic leaders in the region uniting the
people under one goal, to create a whole Jewish state. It was a piece of land taken and held by
force with money thrown at it until it became a somewhat independent country.

Then, take a look at who is buying all these wonderful goods from Israel. The USA. Despite the fact
that most of it's imports are bought from the EU. This makes no sense. Do American companies really
need anything besides oil from half way around the world in a war torn country? When I say hand outs
I don't just mean obvious gifts of free aid money. You also might want to ask yourself why such a
"profitable" country gets economic aid in the first place.

--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia http://www.ramsays-online.com

 

[Paladin]

BB <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 13:54:54 -0000, Shaun Rimmer wrote:
>
> > Aye, all the above as read, but there is something going on behind that which is being held
> > forth, or our gov's would have given their reasoning and stuck to it, instead of repeatedly
> > changing their stories/generally doing a jig.
>
> I agree. I keep feeling that everything I'm hearing is just spin, and not very good spin. War is
> serious business, and if countries are going to commit to it, it should be easy for their leaders
> to explain the reasons why they're doing it at that particular time.
>
> Being an absurd optimist, I'm hoping for Paladin's notion that our government knew some danger was
> imminent, and security was too tight to share it with three Security Council members (but it was
> OK to share it with 39 other countries). Not only would that redeem our leadership for starting
> this war, it would make for some really enjoyable political tap-dancing in the future.
>
> And here's the quote of the day:
>
> " You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper is a white guy, the best golfer is a
> black guy, France is accusing the US of arrogance and Germany doesn't want to go to war."

Thanks for that quote, Blaine, I almost lost my water on that one. LOL!

I don't think George and Tony had to tell the other 39 countries what they knew, since they would
understand the need for confidentiality. All they would have to know is that the two were sincerely
convinced, and that was based on solid evidence that would be revealed when it was safe to do so. Or
they held a big, economic stick over their heads. time will tell.

Paladin Paladin

 

[Bb]

On 28 Mar 2003 15:09:18 -0800, Paladin wrote:
> I don't think George and Tony had to tell the other 39 countries what they knew, since they would
> understand the need for confidentiality.

Well, it makes more sense than 40 countries signing up for an action that violates international
law. I also would have expected some resignations in Bush's staff if we initiated such a violation.

The thing that is really odd is this huge, sudden rush to do this - which happened about 2 weeks
ago. One day missiles were being destroyed and it looked like the inspectors were finally making a
little progress, then two days later we HAD to go to war and couldn't even wait for a troop buildup
(at the time we expected it to be this messy, you may recall).

I have a theory, but I want nothing to do with Middle-East politics.

--
-BB- To reply to me, drop the attitude (from my e-mail address, at least)

 

[Mark Hickey]

"Cleanbean" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Shaun, is there any authority you do agree with?

I've heard he believes in gravity, but is always fighting the concept anyway.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] says...
>> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>> >Your weapons or Iraqs? The only two facts that are known right now is you have the largest
>> >supply in the world and Iraq may or may not have any at all. Now the US is due to destroy it's
>> >supply by April 2007, why do you get so much time?
>>
>> Because we've never used them on anyone, nor is it likely we would.

>Says you. Then you interview the average joe sixpack who also happens to make up the bulk of the
>armed forces and you ask him what he would do if Russians were streaming in from Mexico and Canada,
>taking his towns one by one, would he keep the fight nice and conventional?

Good point. I should have said "nor is it likely we'd use them in a war of aggression".

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] says...

>> Supermodels, football players, rap artists. They all share something the "oil economy states"
>> share - a very limited resource that makes them much more important than they would be otherwise.
>> For a while.
>
>Well the only "resource" the USA exports more than is imports is US dollars so what exactly ar eyou
>getting at? The fall of the USA within ten years?
>
>> Bill Gates would be more like the Israeli economy.
>>
>They do have a lot of computer geeks but I don't think they are making any money off their geekdom.
>Otherwise I still don't have a clue what you are getting at. What has Israel built besides walls
>and tanks with US money?

Just that Israel has a considerable GNP that has no "oil component", while others in the region
don't (as much, anyway).

The only GNP in the middle east that's close to Israel's on a per capita basis is Kuwait (which has
a LOT of oil and only 1.7 million people). The next is Saudi Arabia with a GNP/person less than half
that of Israel (and an awful lot of that is oil). Iran and Iraq have GNP/person of about 7% that of
Israel (including the oil).

FWIW.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Mark Hickey]

Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] says...

>> There are exceptions. Japan is very natural resource poor, but they built a thriving economy. On
>> a smaller scale, Singapore has nothing going for it but "location, location, location".
>
>And Israel is the worlds leading exporter of....concrete barriers and beard trimmers I guess?

Could be - I know that they have a large hi-tech industry. I'm not sure what all their exports are,
but they're considerable.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Jeremy]

Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >[email protected] says...
>
> >> Check up on the current status of those WMD. You might be surprised.
> >>
> >
> >Your weapons or Iraqs? The only two facts that are known right now is you have the largest supply
> >in the world and Iraq may or may not have any at all. Now the US is due to destroy it's supply by
> >April 2007, why do you get so much time?
>
> Because we've never used them on anyone, nor is it likely we would.

Not counting Agent Orange, of course.

Plus, I heard on the radio that one of the options being considered for the siege of Baghdad is the
kind of "non-lethal" agent used by the Russians in the cinema. Want to guess how many sick people
will die if they use that in a concentration high enough to affect an adult male?

J.

 

[Mark Hickey]

[email protected] (Jeremy) wrote:

>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:<[email protected]>...
>> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >[email protected] says...
>>
>> >> Check up on the current status of those WMD. You might be surprised.
>> >
>> >Your weapons or Iraqs? The only two facts that are known right now is you have the largest
>> >supply in the world and Iraq may or may not have any at all. Now the US is due to destroy it's
>> >supply by April 2007, why do you get so much time?
>>
>> Because we've never used them on anyone, nor is it likely we would.
>
>Not counting Agent Orange, of course.

While foliage might consider AO a WOMD, I'd say anyone that would consider using it as a weapon
would be laughed out of the military. It's no doubt nasty stuff - but hardly a "weapon".

>Plus, I heard on the radio that one of the options being considered for the siege of Baghdad is the
>kind of "non-lethal" agent used by the Russians in the cinema. Want to guess how many sick people
>will die if they use that in a concentration high enough to affect an adult male?

Want to guess how many will die if the Iraqis use civilian "human shields" and we have to use only
conventional weapons? If I were one of those being used to shield the Iraqi troops, I'd take my
chances with the "calming agent", personally. The fact it's classified as a "gas" doesn't make it a
WMD any more than it does my dentist.

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Jeremy]

Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (Jeremy) wrote:
>
> >Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:<[email protected]>...
> >> Chris Phillipo <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >[email protected] says...
>
> >> >> Check up on the current status of those WMD. You might be surprised.
> >> >
> >> >Your weapons or Iraqs? The only two facts that are known right now is you have the largest
> >> >supply in the world and Iraq may or may not have any at all. Now the US is due to destroy it's
> >> >supply by April 2007, why do you get so much time?
> >>
> >> Because we've never used them on anyone, nor is it likely we would.
> >
> >Not counting Agent Orange, of course.
>
> While foliage might consider AO a WOMD, I'd say anyone that would consider using it as a weapon
> would be laughed out of the military. It's no doubt nasty stuff - but hardly a "weapon".

I look forward to you explaining that distinction to the people who it is continuing to kill and
disfigure.

> >Plus, I heard on the radio that one of the options being considered for the siege of Baghdad is
> >the kind of "non-lethal" agent used by the Russians in the cinema. Want to guess how many sick
> >people will die if they use that in a concentration high enough to affect an adult male?
>
> Want to guess how many will die if the Iraqis use civilian "human shields" and we have to use only
> conventional weapons? If I were one of those being used to shield the Iraqi troops, I'd take my
> chances with the "calming agent", personally. The fact it's classified as a "gas" doesn't make it
> a WMD any more than it does my dentist.

That's a nice piece of spin - you attack a city with bombs, and then when you kill people you
blame the inhabitants for "using human shields"? I suppose the WTC was protected with human
shields as well?

However - I now see your defeinition of WMD - it's "what the other guy might have". It all makes
sense now ...

J.

 

[Shaun Rimmer]

Cleanbean <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Paladin <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >
> > > > > > So, what do you make of these things in the light of the links
> Bomba
> > > > posted?
> > > >
> > > > (About the Euro/$/etc.).
> > > >
> > > > You still didn't comment on this bit here, and I'm interested to
know
> > your
> > > > opinion ',;~}
> > > >
> > > > Shaun aRe
> > >
> > > I'm sorry, out of 300 threads or so, with work responsibilities, kid responsibilities, my own
> > > play-time and laziness, early dinner with friends last night, lunch planning the Barneyville
> > > trip, etc., etc., I haven't even SEEN these links. Maybe a better man than I could do it all,
> > > or better yet, my wife, who tends to juggle a much busier schedule than me, and do it
> > > successfully, while staying pretty and available for the wild thing upon demand, of course.
> >
> > It woulda taken less time to find the links than to write all that P
',;~}
> >
> > > BTW, I'm VERY PROUD of Tony Blair and the way he conducted himself and articulated his
> > > country'd position on the war this morning in the joint briefing and press conference. I wish
> > > our own top bananna was as articulate.
> >
> > Tony Blair is a big bottom pimple who's in possession of some reasonable acting skills, and who
> > gets angry when his decisions are questioned (at
> the
> > very best). Some people make the mistake of taking this as 'passion'.
> >
> > I really don't like the guy, or the way he conducts his politics.
> >
> > Shaun aRe
> >
> Shaun, is there any authority you do agree with?

Yes.

Shaun aRe - 'me' ',;~P```

 

[Shaun Rimmer]

Paladin <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > Paladin <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > "Shaun Rimmer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> >
> >
> > > > > > So, what do you make of these things in the light of the links
Bomba
> > > > posted?
> > > >
> > > > (About the Euro/$/etc.).
> > > >
> > > > You still didn't comment on this bit here, and I'm interested to
know
> > your
> > > > opinion ',;~}
> > > >
> > > > Shaun aRe
> > >
> > > I'm sorry, out of 300 threads or so, with work responsibilities, kid responsibilities, my own
> > > play-time and laziness, early dinner with friends last night, lunch planning the Barneyville
> > > trip, etc., etc., I haven't even SEEN these links. Maybe a better man than I could do it all,
> > > or better yet, my wife, who tends to juggle a much busier schedule than me, and do it
> > > successfully, while staying pretty and available for the wild thing upon demand, of course.
> >
> > It woulda taken less time to find the links than to write all that P
',;~}
> >
> > > BTW, I'm VERY PROUD of Tony Blair and the way he conducted himself and articulated his
> > > country'd position on the war this morning in the joint briefing and press conference. I wish
> > > our own top bananna was as articulate.
> >
> > Tony Blair is a big bottom pimple who's in possession of some reasonable acting skills, and who
> > gets angry when his decisions are questioned (at
the
> > very best). Some people make the mistake of taking this as 'passion'.
> >
> > I really don't like the guy, or the way he conducts his politics.
> >
> >
> >
> > Shaun aRe
>
>
> Tell me what you really think, no PC euphemisms this time.

under the guise of a 'New Labour' style and ethic.

> BTW, did you like Maggie Thatcher?

I would have quite happily shot the *****, if I were inclined toward murder.

Shaun aRe