[OT] No fines for 39mph in a 30 limit.



R

Richard

Guest
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4303656.stm

Course offer for speeding drivers

Drivers caught speeding could escape fines and penalty points by doing a
course on the dangers of fast driving.

The change could help overcome drivers' resentment of speed cameras,
hopes the Association of Chief Police Officers.

The choice will apply for first time offenders in England and Wales
speeding by less than nine miles an hour.

Road safety charity Brake welcomed the extra driver education but said
it should not replace any penalties.

Awareness course

BBC crime correspondent Neil Bennett said: "Senior [police] officers
want to take some of the heat out of the debate on speed cameras.

"Some motorists suspect they are just a means of raising money for the
police."

Drivers in a 30mph zone doing up to 39mph will be given the opportunity
to go on a speed awareness course if it is their first offence.

It will last one day and be run by local councils.

The point of points is eventually to ban drivers who are not fit to be
on the road
Mary Williams
Brake

The cost of the course will be borne by the motorist and roughly the
same as the potential fine. No penalty points will go on the licence.

In a pilot scheme in Lancashire, the vast majority of those caught opted
to go on the course.

Mary Williams of Brake welcomed more education on the dangers of
speeding but said any course must be only an added extra.

"We think education is really important," she said. "However the point
of points is eventually to ban drivers who are not fit to be on the road.

"If you are having an education scheme, it must be an 'and' rather than
an 'or'."

Rural danger

She said people's resentment towards speed cameras was a "bit of a myth".

"We know from public surveys conducted by the government and us that the
majority of people do accept speed cameras as an important enforcement
device.

Changing someone's attitude may not go on to alter their behaviour, she
said.

She added there needed to be more education on the danger of rural
speeding, not just in towns and cities, "because that is where most
vehicle occupants die in head on collisions or overtaking manoeuvres".
 
M

Mark Tranchant

Guest
Richard wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4303656.stm
>
> Course offer for speeding drivers
>
> Drivers caught speeding could escape fines and penalty points by doing a
> course on the dangers of fast driving.


I'm all for it. Driver education is much better than slapping a fine on
them.

Hopefully it'll reduce the number of **idiots** who brake sharply for
speed cameras, despite already travelling within the speed limit.

Obviously, I'm far enough back not to be in any danger, before I get a
million posts tellin gme to keep my distance, but it's still an
inconvenience.

--
Mark.
http://tranchant.plus.com/
 
T

Tony Raven

Guest
Richard wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4303656.stm
>
> Course offer for speeding drivers
>
> Drivers caught speeding could escape fines and penalty points by doing a
> course on the dangers of fast driving.
>


I'm generally in favour as there is more chance of changing behaviour
with a course and it costs them as much as the fine to go on the course.
Where I would like to see a change is that if you have a second
offence you get the original as well as the new points i.e. you only
get to escape your penalty points by good behaviour.

--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon
 
R

Richard

Guest
Mark Tranchant wrote:
> Richard wrote:
>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4303656.stm
>>
>> Course offer for speeding drivers
>>
>> Drivers caught speeding could escape fines and penalty points by doing
>> a course on the dangers of fast driving.

>
>
> I'm all for it. Driver education is much better than slapping a fine on
> them.


Provided it educates/changes their behaviour, and I'm not convinced of
the efficiacy of a one-day course. It would be interesting to see if
such drivers' records are monitored afterwards.

R.
 
N

Nobody Here

Guest
Richard <[email protected]> wrote:
> Mark Tranchant wrote:
>> Richard wrote:
>>
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4303656.stm
>>>
>>> Course offer for speeding drivers
>>>
>>> Drivers caught speeding could escape fines and penalty points by doing
>>> a course on the dangers of fast driving.

>>
>>
>> I'm all for it. Driver education is much better than slapping a fine on
>> them.

>
> Provided it educates/changes their behaviour, and I'm not convinced of
> the efficiacy of a one-day course. It would be interesting to see if
> such drivers' records are monitored afterwards.


Well they are in the sense that if they get caught again they're in
the ****.

I think I'm in favour. Although I'm vehemently and vociferously
anti-speeding in reality sometimes people make mistakes, get
confused, or are otherwise not aware of a speed limit, I occasionally
have been myself having missed the transition between 40 and 30, for
examplei, on an unfamiliar road.

Having said, that, I don't believe it'll help - many people with
no conviction will treat it as an extra life and drive accordingly.

Hmm, I don't know, I guess. We'll have to see. We need a "genuine mistake
detector", shoot the ones who do it deliberately, and punish those
who do make a genuine and perhaps forgivable mistake.

--
Nobby
 
J

John Burns

Guest
If you want to reduce peoples speed give them cruise control! I just
changed one of my cars and the new one has cruise with the controls
built into the steering wheel. Not only do I tend to just leave it on
and drive a bit slower as a result but I'm getting better mpg too.

--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :)
Email: [email protected], John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland
Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage!
Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html
 
N

Nobody Here

Guest
John Burns <[email protected]> wrote:
> If you want to reduce peoples speed give them cruise control! I just
> changed one of my cars and the new one has cruise with the controls
> built into the steering wheel. Not only do I tend to just leave it on
> and drive a bit slower as a result but I'm getting better mpg too.


Noooooooooooo!!! Cruise control's fine on long emptyish
roads where there is truly nothing to require a driver to be
distracted very often, but it ain't on most of the roads I've
ever driven on in Britain. With cruise control you lose another
factor that's making you concentrate on the job at hand - many
would and do argue that driving today is "boring" enough as it is
because cars are so automated and roads so well signposted and
marked out that drivers' concentration is already sufferingi as a
result. Not only that, but your foot, not being in contact with a
pedal, loses it's reference position, so if you do need to stop in
a hurry your reflexes for the acellerator to brake motion are going
to be that much slower. If you're using cruise control on urban roads,
you're a menace! IMHO, of course.

--
Nobby
 
D

David Hansen

Guest
On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:49:33 +0100 someone who may be John Burns
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>If you want to reduce peoples speed give them cruise control! I just
>changed one of my cars and the new one has cruise with the controls
>built into the steering wheel. Not only do I tend to just leave it on
>and drive a bit slower as a result but I'm getting better mpg too.


Attach a small number of buttons to the dashboard and one has
voluntary speed limiting. People push the appropriate button as they
pass these strange white signs with red borders and black numbers.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.
 
J

John Burns

Guest
> Noooooooooooo!!! Cruise control's fine on long emptyish
> roads where there is truly nothing to require a driver to be
> distracted very often, but it ain't on most of the roads I've
> ever driven on in Britain. With cruise control you lose another


Fair point, the A9 to Inverness on a Sunday evening isn't very busy :)
That's the only time I use that particular car.

> factor that's making you concentrate on the job at hand - many
> would and do argue that driving today is "boring" enough as it is
> because cars are so automated and roads so well signposted and
> marked out that drivers' concentration is already sufferingi as a
> result. Not only that, but your foot, not being in contact with a
> pedal, loses it's reference position, so if you do need to stop in
> a hurry your reflexes for the acellerator to brake motion are going
> to be that much slower. If you're using cruise control on urban roads,
> you're a menace! IMHO, of course.


You make a fair point. One thing you do find with cruise is just how
much other drivers vary their speed for no reason.

--
Who needs a life when you've got Unix? :)
Email: [email protected], John G.Burns B.Eng, Bonny Scotland
Web : http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk - The Ultimate BMW Homepage!
Need Sun or HP Unix kit? http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/unix.html
 
P

P

Guest
David Hansen wrote:
> Attach a small number of buttons to the dashboard and one has
> voluntary speed limiting. People push the appropriate button as they
> pass these strange white signs with red borders and black numbers.


Good idea!

But you should always have two hands on the steering wheel. Perhaps the
buttons should be on the floor, so you could hit them with your feet.

Even better, have just one button, but you press it only so hard for the
first number, then a bit harder for the next number, etc.; if you make it a
gradual progression, you can adjust speed within the numbered ranges, even,
so if the road is busy you can not go as fast. Obviously we'll have to
consider a seperate button, which will work in the opposite direction, so
that the car can be slowed down when you go into a range which has

Hmm... I'll have to see if these things have been patented!

Pete.
 
M

mark

Guest
"Traffic School" has been an institution in California for a few decades
now. Pay the fine, pay for the class, avoid points on your license. IIRC,
you could only take the class every 18 months, although a friend of mine
took two classes in the same month for two offenses committed in the same
month (but in different jurisdictions).

Most people who take the class clean up their driving so they won't have to
waste another day sitting in traffic school again.
--
mark
 
A

Ambrose Nankivell

Guest
mark wrote:
> "Traffic School" has been an institution in California for a few
> decades now. Pay the fine, pay for the class, avoid points on your
> license. IIRC, you could only take the class every 18 months,
> although a friend of mine took two classes in the same month for two
> offenses committed in the same month (but in different jurisdictions).
>
> Most people who take the class clean up their driving so they won't
> have to waste another day sitting in traffic school again.


Of course, California has twice the road death rate of the UK :

http://www.driveandstayalive.com/in...-usa_indiv-states_per-capita_2003.htm#table-2


--
Ambrose
 
P

Peter B

Guest
"Richard" <[email protected]>
wrote in message news:[email protected]
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4303656.stm
>
> Course offer for speeding drivers
>
> Drivers caught speeding could escape fines and penalty points by doing a
> course on the dangers of fast driving.


Ah yes, I heard a discussion regarding this on R2 this lunchtime.
A couple of folks who've attended 'phoned in with their opinions, one stated
that he drives faster since attending! Get this..
He's a lorry driver by trade restricted to 40 mph when driving his lorry on
NSL dual carriageways and prior to the course didn't know he could do 60 mph
in his car so drove that at 40 maximum also! Since being enlightened on the
course he said he now drives his car at up to 60 mph.

No further comment.
--
Pete
http://uk.geocities.com/[email protected]/P
 
M

mark

Guest
"Ambrose Nankivell" wrote...
> mark wrote:
>> "Traffic School" has been an institution in California for a few
>> decades now. Pay the fine, pay for the class, avoid points on your
>> license. IIRC, you could only take the class every 18 months,
>> although a friend of mine took two classes in the same month for two
>> offenses committed in the same month (but in different jurisdictions).
>>
>> Most people who take the class clean up their driving so they won't
>> have to waste another day sitting in traffic school again.

>
> Of course, California has twice the road death rate of the UK :
>
> http://www.driveandstayalive.com/in...-usa_indiv-states_per-capita_2003.htm#table-2
>
>
> --
> Ambrose


I didn't say traffic school worked, just that it had been around in
California for a long while. I don't think it's caught on in too many of the
other 49 states, which says a fair bit about its the effectiveness of the
whole concept.

I find the figures for deaths per billion vehicle kilometers to be a better
indicator of road safety than the figures for road deaths per capita of
population. And yes, the US does come off worse than the UK (and quite a few
other European countires) when road safety is measured by either yardstick.

Excellent website, I've bookmarked it for further study.
--
mark
 
N

Nobody Here

Guest
John Burns <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Noooooooooooo!!! Cruise control's fine on long emptyish
>> roads where there is truly nothing to require a driver to be
>> distracted very often, but it ain't on most of the roads I've
>> ever driven on in Britain. With cruise control you lose another

>
> Fair point, the A9 to Inverness on a Sunday evening isn't very busy :)
> That's the only time I use that particular car.
>
>> factor that's making you concentrate on the job at hand - many
>> would and do argue that driving today is "boring" enough as it is
>> because cars are so automated and roads so well signposted and
>> marked out that drivers' concentration is already sufferingi as a
>> result. Not only that, but your foot, not being in contact with a
>> pedal, loses it's reference position, so if you do need to stop in
>> a hurry your reflexes for the acellerator to brake motion are going
>> to be that much slower. If you're using cruise control on urban roads,
>> you're a menace! IMHO, of course.

>
> You make a fair point. One thing you do find with cruise is just how
> much other drivers vary their speed for no reason.


I find that in cruise controlled cars, which I've driven mainly in
Oz and NZ, they don't do things the same as a human driver in a way
that makes it quite disconcerting. Humans tend to slow down ever
so slightly (or sometime, of course not so slightly) both at the brow
of a hill and into a corner. That's possibly because the tendency is
to ease off the accelerator at the brow of a hill because it deesn't
need to be pressed in as far, and also because the brow causes a mild
blind-spot. At a corner, the tendency is to leave the same amount
of accelerator on, which results in the car slowing down slightly.
Either that or it's a small, unconcious hesitation because your
sight line is more obscured than it was before the corner or the brow.

Cruise controls don't do that, and I always feel a little kick in the
back (which is probably the absence of an anti-kick really) which
is quite disconcerting.


--
Nobby
 
N

Nobody Here

Guest
Ambrose Nankivell <[email protected]> wrote:
> mark wrote:
>> "Traffic School" has been an institution in California for a few
>> decades now. Pay the fine, pay for the class, avoid points on your
>> license. IIRC, you could only take the class every 18 months,
>> although a friend of mine took two classes in the same month for two
>> offenses committed in the same month (but in different jurisdictions).
>>
>> Most people who take the class clean up their driving so they won't
>> have to waste another day sitting in traffic school again.

>
> Of course, California has twice the road death rate of the UK :
>
> http://www.driveandstayalive.com/in...-usa_indiv-states_per-capita_2003.htm#table-2


But it does have one third the death rate (per capita) of Wyoming. And it's
one of the better states, so I'm not sure if that means it works or not.

Are per capita rates a good thing to base any sort of judgment on anyway?
Surely it's best per vehicle mile or passenger mile?

--
Nobby
 
D

David Nutter

Guest
On 2005-10-03, Richard <[email protected]> wrote:
> Mark Tranchant wrote:
>> Richard wrote:
>>
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4303656.stm
>>>
>>> Course offer for speeding drivers
>>>
>>> Drivers caught speeding could escape fines and penalty points by doing
>>> a course on the dangers of fast driving.

>>
>>
>> I'm all for it. Driver education is much better than slapping a fine on
>> them.

>
> Provided it educates/changes their behaviour, and I'm not convinced of
> the efficiacy of a one-day course. It would be interesting to see if
> such drivers' records are monitored afterwards.


They've had such courses in Lincolnshire for a while now, due to the
denizens' lamentable motoring habits. So far, the incident rate seems to be
reducing, though TTBOMK they haven't worked out how to isolate the most
effective interventions from mere fiddling.

So, the courses might have a greater effect than fines alone. I'm cautiously
in favour.

Regards,

-david
 
Peter B wrote:

> He's a lorry driver by trade restricted to 40 mph when driving his lorry on
> NSL dual carriageways and prior to the course didn't know he could do 60 mph
> in his car so drove that at 40 maximum also! Since being enlightened on the
> course he said he now drives his car at up to 60 mph.
>
> No further comment.


I'm confused. The NSL limit for _dual carriageways_ is 70mph for cars,
60 for <7.5 tonnes and 50 for >7.5 tonne lorries. Did he mean that he
thought as a lorry he was restricted to 40?

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.htm Section 103
 
A

Ambrose Nankivell

Guest
Nobody Here wrote:
> Ambrose Nankivell <[email protected]> wrote:
>> mark wrote:
>>> "Traffic School" has been an institution in California for a few
>>> decades now. Pay the fine, pay for the class, avoid points on your
>>> license. IIRC, you could only take the class every 18 months,
>>> although a friend of mine took two classes in the same month for two
>>> offenses committed in the same month (but in different
>>> jurisdictions).
>>>
>>> Most people who take the class clean up their driving so they won't
>>> have to waste another day sitting in traffic school again.

>>
>> Of course, California has twice the road death rate of the UK :
>>
>> http://www.driveandstayalive.com/in...-usa_indiv-states_per-capita_2003.htm#table-2

>
> But it does have one third the death rate (per capita) of Wyoming.
> And it's one of the better states, so I'm not sure if that means it
> works or not.
>
> Are per capita rates a good thing to base any sort of judgment on
> anyway? Surely it's best per vehicle mile or passenger mile?


Per vehicle or passenger mile undercounts in places where mileage is high.
Per hour travelled is more acceptable but figures are hard to come by. I
think per capita is as relevant, as I'd imagine it's as close to per hour
travelled as per passenger mile.

--
Ambrose
 
N

Nobody Here

Guest
On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 13:12:17 +0100, Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
> Nobody Here wrote:
>> Ambrose Nankivell <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> mark wrote:
>>>> "Traffic School" has been an institution in California for a few
>>>> decades now. Pay the fine, pay for the class, avoid points on your
>>>> license. IIRC, you could only take the class every 18 months,
>>>> although a friend of mine took two classes in the same month for two
>>>> offenses committed in the same month (but in different
>>>> jurisdictions).
>>>>
>>>> Most people who take the class clean up their driving so they won't
>>>> have to waste another day sitting in traffic school again.
>>>
>>> Of course, California has twice the road death rate of the UK :
>>>
>>> http://www.driveandstayalive.com/in...-usa_indiv-states_per-capita_2003.htm#table-2

>>
>> But it does have one third the death rate (per capita) of Wyoming.
>> And it's one of the better states, so I'm not sure if that means it
>> works or not.
>>
>> Are per capita rates a good thing to base any sort of judgment on
>> anyway? Surely it's best per vehicle mile or passenger mile?

>
> Per vehicle or passenger mile undercounts in places where mileage is high.
> Per hour travelled is more acceptable but figures are hard to come by. I
> think per capita is as relevant, as I'd imagine it's as close to per hour
> travelled as per passenger mile.


Yes, probably per vehicle hour or passenger hour would seem to be best.
Having said that, I guess vehicle use per capita is similar in the UK
and the US, but it mighn't be between the UK and, umm, err, Outer Mongolia?

--
Nobby
 

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