OT: Paul Smith down

[Simon Brooke]

cupra wrote:

> OK, straw poll then - who on urc agrees that it's accptable to cause
> distress to relatives of the recently deceased, regardless of the views of
> said deceased?

Personally, I'm agin it. Smith was a nasty - and dangerous - man. He's gone,
and we can all heave a sigh of relief. But that's no reason to cause upset
to others, against whom we know little.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

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[Simon Brooke]

David Damerell wrote:

> Quoting cupra <[email protected]>:
>>David Damerell wrote:
>>>Quoting cupra <[email protected]>:
>>>>burtthebike wrote:
>>>>I am questioning the need to post his address and cause distress to
>>>>his partner and family who have lost a loved one.
>>>If that causes them distress they should query why their loved one's
>>>favourite technique causes them distress.
>>So it's acceptable to drop down to that level then?
>
> Don't tell me you actually suppose that a significant number of urcers
> drive, speed, and will put this into practice? That's absurd.

I'm prepared to bet that most of us drive, and that all of us who drive
speed from time to time, including those who honestly believe they don't.

Whether any of us would stoop as low - or be as foolish - as to use the
deceased Mr Smith's despicable ruse is another matter.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Do not sail on uphill water.
- Bill Lee

 

[vernon]

"JNugent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> vernon wrote:

> The best way to deal with speeding and bad driving *and* to do so justly
> is the old-fashioned way: stop the vehicle on the spot, and even take a
> photo of the driver, just in case of later denials of identity (or forged
> docs).

Some of the speed cameras in Leeds face the car and take photos of the car
and driver.

 

[Rob Morley]

In article <[email protected]>, vernon
[email protected] says...

> Some of the speed cameras in Leeds face the car and take photos of the car
> and driver.
>
Tony Blair rubber masks, anyone?

 

[Alan Braggins]

In article <[email protected]>, Simon Brooke wrote:
>David Damerell wrote:
>> Quoting cupra <[email protected]>:
>>>David Damerell wrote:
>>>>Quoting cupra <[email protected]>:
>>>>>burtthebike wrote:
>>>>>I am questioning the need to post his address and cause distress to
>>>>>his partner and family who have lost a loved one.
>>>>If that causes them distress they should query why their loved one's
>>>>favourite technique causes them distress.
>>>So it's acceptable to drop down to that level then?
>>
>> Don't tell me you actually suppose that a significant number of urcers
>> drive, speed, and will put this into practice? That's absurd.
>
>I'm prepared to bet that most of us drive, and that all of us who drive
>speed from time to time, including those who honestly believe they don't.

I wouldn't put money on all of the latter. But even if they do, speeding
by a small amount rarely is most unlikely to get them a speeding ticket.
So it's still likely to be a small proportion for whom the question:
>Whether any of us would stoop as low - or be as foolish - as to use the
>deceased Mr Smith's despicable ruse is another matter.
even arises.

But, now he's deceased, he's much less likely to be mistaken for a
safety campaigner by papers looking for a soundbite, so the need to
point out how despicable he was is less. His partner might continue
with his dubious methods, but I think we should wait and see first.

 

[JNugent]

vernon wrote:
> "JNugent" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>vernon wrote:
>
>
>>The best way to deal with speeding and bad driving *and* to do so justly
>>is the old-fashioned way: stop the vehicle on the spot, and even take a
>>photo of the driver, just in case of later denials of identity (or forged
>>docs).
>
>
> Some of the speed cameras in Leeds face the car and take photos of the car
> and driver.

Probably Truvelos (developed partly to take account of that particular
problem). It's why I specified "vehicle identified, driver not
identified".

For many drivers, their driving licence photo will be accessible via
DVLA (not as a certain ID method, of course, because of the
possibility that siblings will look similar - and anyway, everyone
changes over the years).

 

[Tom Crispin]

On 15 Dec 2007 12:26:12 GMT, Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>I have, on occasion, participated in some form of celebration /
>memorial of a recently deceased person that I would not have chosen
>for myself.

The news of some deaths can cause me quite considereble mirth.

After my Grandfather died my brothers and I went through all his
belongings and we found this little jem.

www.johnballcycling.org.uk/misc/letter1
www.johnballcycling.org.uk/misc/letter2

The final paragraph of page 2, detailing the deaths of 15 desperate
men, had us falling about with laughter, and for a moment we quite
forgot our own grief.

 

[raisethe]

x-no-archive:Tom Crispin wrote:
>
> www.johnballcycling.org.uk/misc/letter2
>
> The final paragraph of page 2, detailing the deaths of 15 desperate
> men, had us falling about with laughter, and for a moment we quite
> forgot our own grief.

Rather unpleasant to read about the massacre of 2,500 civilians by the
RAF in the same paragraph.

 

[Tom Crispin]

On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 16:31:39 +0000, raisethe <[email protected]>
wrote:

>x-no-archive:Tom Crispin wrote:
>>
>> www.johnballcycling.org.uk/misc/letter2
>>
>> The final paragraph of page 2, detailing the deaths of 15 desperate
>> men, had us falling about with laughter, and for a moment we quite
>> forgot our own grief.
>
>Rather unpleasant to read about the massacre of 2,500 civilians by the
>RAF in the same paragraph.

Yes. The author seems more interested in the fact that the dam would
take 2 years to refill than the civilian deaths.

The "Dambuster" raid was designed to destroy heavy industry just below
the dam. The drowning of so many German civilians so far from the dam
would be called collateral damage by the Americans.

I have heard rumour that during the First Oil War the US had plans to
bomb an Iraqi dam should the Iraqis start lobbing chemical weapons at
the Alliance's field troops.

I don't know where the dam is. It might be the Tigris dam just above
Mosul.

 

[Adam Lea]

"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> cupra wrote:
>
>> OK, straw poll then - who on urc agrees that it's accptable to cause
>> distress to relatives of the recently deceased, regardless of the views
>> of
>> said deceased?
>
> Personally, I'm agin it. Smith was a nasty - and dangerous - man. He's
> gone,
> and we can all heave a sigh of relief. But that's no reason to cause upset
> to others, against whom we know little.
>

Unfortunatly, there will be someone equally nasty and dangerous to take his
place (assuming he was nasty and dangerous).

 

[[email protected]]

In message <[email protected]>
"Adam Lea" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Unfortunatly, there will be someone equally nasty and dangerous to take his
> place (assuming he was nasty and dangerous).

There'll be a press vacuum, certainly.

Perhaps the media can be satisfied by one of the informed,
thoughtful, positive and rounded commentators we are fortunate to have
posting to this newsgroup.

--
Charles
Brompton P6R-Plus; CarryFreedom -YL, in Motspur Park
LCC; CTC.

 

[vernon]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>
> "Adam Lea" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Unfortunatly, there will be someone equally nasty and dangerous to take
>> his
>> place (assuming he was nasty and dangerous).
>
> There'll be a press vacuum, certainly.
>
> Perhaps the media can be satisfied by one of the informed,
> thoughtful, positive and rounded commentators we are fortunate to have
> posting to this newsgroup.
>
Smith's views dovetailed with the editorial sentiments of several
motoring/motor cycling publications. I doubt that he'll be replaced by
members of urc whose sentiments are diametrically opposed to those of the
deceased.

 

[TerryJ]

> Yes. The author seems more interested in the fact that the dam would
> take 2 years to refill than the civilian deaths.
>
> The "Dambuster" raid was designed to destroy heavy industry just below
> the dam. The drowning of so many German civilians so far from the dam
> would be called collateral damage by the Americans.

And what would the germans have called it? Do you think they were
surprised to find that bombing kills civilians?
Guernica et seq..
At least the Dams raid had primarily an industrial target.The reason
for the interest shown by the letter was that it was suggested at the
time and since that the raid was a waste of time and effort, whereas
the writer points out that significant damage was done.
I know of at least one 16year old boy who was busy shoving bodies into
an incinerator in Dachau at the time and still finds it hard to
understand such scruples.
At the time the letter was written that number of innocent people were
dying every week in Belsen, and the war was over and they were not
supporting the german factories.

 

[raisethe]

x-no-archive:TerryJ wrote:

>
> And what would the germans have called it? Do you think they were
> surprised to find that bombing kills civilians?
> Guernica et seq..
> At least the Dams raid had primarily an industrial target.The reason
> for the interest shown by the letter was that it was suggested at the
> time and since that the raid was a waste of time and effort, whereas
> the writer points out that significant damage was done.
> I know of at least one 16year old boy who was busy shoving bodies into
> an incinerator in Dachau at the time and still finds it hard to
> understand such scruples.
> At the time the letter was written that number of innocent people were
> dying every week in Belsen, and the war was over and they were not
> supporting the german factories.


Dropping bombs from airplanes seems to me to be a cowardly way to fight
a war. The oil wars in Iraq are a case in point. I accept though that by
1944 2,500 innocent deaths would hardly have seemed to matter to many
people.

 

[TerryJ]

> Dropping bombs from airplanes seems to me to be a cowardly way to fight
> a war. The oil wars in Iraq are a case in point. I accept though that by
> 1944 2,500 innocent deaths would hardly have seemed to matter to many
> people.

If, when it hits the fan, your first concern is to appear heroic,
remind me to stand with someone else.
Bomber command aircrew took 30% fatalities.

 

[Simon Brooke]

TerryJ wrote:

>
>> Dropping bombs from airplanes seems to me to be a cowardly way to fight
>> a war. The oil wars in Iraq are a case in point. I accept though that by
>> 1944 2,500 innocent deaths would hardly have seemed to matter to many
>> people.
>
> If, when it hits the fan, your first concern is to appear heroic,
> remind me to stand with someone else.
> Bomber command aircrew took 30% fatalities.

How many of them died is not exactly relevant. Targetted bombing of
non-combatants (e.g. Dresden) was then, and still is now, a war crime.
Targetted bombing of industrial infrastructure where large numbers of
non-combatant casualties was a predictable consequence is morally and
legally thin ice. Since the Nuremberg tribunals held that German service
people who took part in war crimes while 'just obeying orders' were guilty,
we must accept that Allied service people who did the same were too.

Just because we won, doesn't give us an excuse for not facing up to the
crimes that were committed in our name, whether in Germany or Iraq (where,
let us remember, Bomber Harris first experimented with both indiscriminate
civilian bombing and the use of poison gas against civilians).

The sins of the fathers...

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

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[raisethe]

TerryJ wrote:

>
> If, when it hits the fan, your first concern is to appear heroic,
> remind me to stand with someone else.

Yes, you will most probably hide behind some big guns, no matter the
right or wrong of the issue.


> Bomber command aircrew took 30% fatalities.

Fair point, but (a) they had chosen to fight, (b) they were killing many
more civilians than were being killed themselves and (c) bombing is a
pretty safe way to kill innocent Iraqis these days.

 

[Tom Jeffs]

My sincere condolences Spindrift. Paul Smith's death will no doubt leave
you without a purpose in life. No longer will you be able to spout such
vitriolic nonsense and hateful abuse over a man whose passion was to improve
road safety for all.

I genuinely hope that his death now gives you time to find treatment for
your mental ailments. Perhaps now you'll be able to join an internet forum
without being banned for speaking your mind. Perhaps you'll even find time
to learn how to ride a bicycle, or drive a car.

 

[Duncan Smith]

>
> Just because we won, doesn't give us an excuse for not facing up to the
> crimes that were committed in our name, whether in Germany or Iraq (where,
> let us remember, Bomber Harris first experimented with both indiscriminate
> civilian bombing and the use of poison gas against civilians).
>
> The sins of the fathers...
>

I'm often astonished at the foresight Bomber Harris' parents must have
had!

Regards,

Duncan

 

[Dan Holdsworth]

On Sat, 15 Dec 2007 19:28:54 -0000, Adam Lea
<[email protected]>
was popularly supposed to have said:

> Unfortunatly, there will be someone equally nasty and dangerous to take his
> place (assuming he was nasty and dangerous).

All he did was to point out the actual figures for road deaths as
opposed to the hype which the Government had been touting up to that
time.

He also pointed out that no study had been performed to test the degree
to which the regression to the mean phenomenon (that is to say, the
tendency for rare events not to recur in specific areas for a long time)
was affecting the spread of traffic casualties.

To summarise, the Government stance was that if a few accidents occurred
on a stretch of road, then a speed camera installation would cure the
problem.

The problem is, road accidents don't happen very often, and two or three
happening on one stretch of road in six months may be just a
coincidence; pure freak chance, nothing more, and you could then go for
several years without another accident.

So, at that juncture you don't know if any treatment you're applying is
doing anything to help or hinder the problem or if it is doing
absolutely nothing.

The only way you can sort this out is to take candidate sections of road
which meet the criteria for speed cameras, and randomly (flip a coin)
put cameras on some, and no cameras on others. You need to do this a lot
of times, and you need to monitor for a couple of years or so to see if
there's any statistical difference between the two groups of sites.

Paul Smith did this, at one remove, by compelling the Ministery of
Transport to tell him what the accident rates were in different sorts of
motorway roadworks (the Ministry had quietly done the statistics already
by themselves, and said nothing about it).

It turns out that there is a statistically provable difference between
roadworks with Gatso units in, those with SPECS units in, those with no
cameras in and those which were more actively police patrolled.

Of the different types, as compared to no enforcement as a baseline, the
Gatso increases accidents markedly, the SPECS increases accidents
slightly, and the police patrols decrease accidents markedly.

If Paul hadn't asked, we wouldn't know this now.

To date, no statistical comparison of speedcam to no-speedcam sites has
been undertaken, although the two police areas (Durham and North Yorks)
which don't use many fixed cameras are not reporting hugely increased or
decreased road accident rates, which suggests that speed cameras do not
actually do very much at all.




--
Dan Holdsworth PhD [email protected]
By caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, By the beans of Java
do thoughts acquire speed, hands acquire shaking, the shaking
becomes a warning, By caffeine alone do I set my mind in motion