OT: USA



Doug Kanter wrote:
> "Joan in GB-W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > The city I live in recently put into local law an ordinance that English
> > be
> > the official language of the county. Anyway, when the side opposing the
> > legislation (I might add that that was my side) pointed out to them that
> > the
> > current immigrants are learning English far faster than OUR ancestors did
> > way back when, they ignored those facts.
>
> The idea of making it a law for government employment is stupid. Simply make
> English proficiency a requirement for each specific job that involves
> speaking to the public. There are plenty of jobs behind the scenes where
> your less-than-perfect won't frustrate the bejeezus out of 90% of the people
> you come into contact with.

Your widdle twain has run offn its twack... alls ya gots to do is
mandate that English proficiency be required to become a US citizen...
the idea of administering a US citizenry exam in any other language but
English is as ludicrous as the US printing multi-cultural money....
next thing ya know we'll have $3 bills sporting a picture of a couple
dago homos kissing. LOL

Sheldon
 
"Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "FDR" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> "Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>> One city here did that to cries of racism blah blah blah ... well, let
>>> the
>>> people who think that such a bad idea go over to city hall and pick up
>>> their CofO (don't ask) and other paperwork to sell a house and no one
>>> understands what the hell you're looking for. Not acceptable to me.
>>> I'm right behind the law that said, you want to work for the city, you
>>> have to be able to communicate in English.
>
>> I'm sure there are jobs that would require a proficient use of the
>> language. However, my grandfather came over from Italy in the 20's,
>> didn't know the language, or learn it, but was good enough to work for
>> the city sweeping streets. Should he have been deprived employment with
>> the city?
>
> No, though I bet he'd have done well in a more skilled job had he spoken
> the language. Before you get annoyed, there is nothing wrong with being
> a street sweeper, someone had to do it, and it's hard honest work. But
> even the most simple job is probably easier if you can read directions to
> equipment, whatever. Those were far simpler times. But, I digress.
>
> No, I really don't think it is at all acceptable to have to conduct
> business
> required by law with people who can't read my applications or understand
> what I need from them. You shouldn't be hired if you can't do the job.
> I don't think it's too much to ask. I would expect the same of myself if
> I moved to another country.
>
> nancy
>

I'm thinking of real estate transactions at a county clerk's office,
conducted by an employee who speaks little or no English. Could be
interesting....
 
"Sheldon" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Doug Kanter wrote:
>> "Joan in GB-W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> > The city I live in recently put into local law an ordinance that
>> > English
>> > be
>> > the official language of the county. Anyway, when the side opposing
>> > the
>> > legislation (I might add that that was my side) pointed out to them
>> > that
>> > the
>> > current immigrants are learning English far faster than OUR ancestors
>> > did
>> > way back when, they ignored those facts.
>>
>> The idea of making it a law for government employment is stupid. Simply
>> make
>> English proficiency a requirement for each specific job that involves
>> speaking to the public. There are plenty of jobs behind the scenes where
>> your less-than-perfect won't frustrate the bejeezus out of 90% of the
>> people
>> you come into contact with.
>
> Your widdle twain has run offn its twack... alls ya gots to do is
> mandate that English proficiency be required to become a US citizen...
> the idea of administering a US citizenry exam in any other language but
> English is as ludicrous as the US printing multi-cultural money....
> next thing ya know we'll have $3 bills sporting a picture of a couple
> dago homos kissing. LOL
>
> Sheldon
>

If English proficiency was required for citizenship, two things would
happen. First, we'd be deprived of an awful lot of talent. That's serious.
The next thing is frightening: **** Cheney would be president.
 
"FDR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:ON9%[email protected]...
>
> "Kat" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:zj8%[email protected]...
>>
>> "FDR" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:QR%[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Dan Abel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>> US Citizen <uscitizen@usa> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we
>>>>> continue
>>>>> to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries
>>>>
>>>> This is a joke, right? If not, then it must be a troll.
>>>
>>> When the poeple of other countries are becoming the majority, then
>>> Democracy will favor them.
>>
>> so?
>> Afraid of not being favored anymore?
>>
>>
>
> I'm not saying it like it's a bad thing. Cool yer engines.
>

got it, engines cooled :)
 
"Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "FDR" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> "Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>>> One city here did that to cries of racism blah blah blah ... well, let
>>> the
>>> people who think that such a bad idea go over to city hall and pick up
>>> their CofO (don't ask) and other paperwork to sell a house and no one
>>> understands what the hell you're looking for. Not acceptable to me.
>>> I'm right behind the law that said, you want to work for the city, you
>>> have to be able to communicate in English.
>
>> I'm sure there are jobs that would require a proficient use of the
>> language. However, my grandfather came over from Italy in the 20's,
>> didn't know the language, or learn it, but was good enough to work for
>> the city sweeping streets. Should he have been deprived employment with
>> the city?
>
> No, though I bet he'd have done well in a more skilled job had he spoken
> the language. Before you get annoyed, there is nothing wrong with being
> a street sweeper, someone had to do it, and it's hard honest work. But
> even the most simple job is probably easier if you can read directions to
> equipment, whatever. Those were far simpler times. But, I digress.
>
> No, I really don't think it is at all acceptable to have to conduct
> business
> required by law with people who can't read my applications or understand
> what I need from them. You shouldn't be hired if you can't do the job.
> I don't think it's too much to ask. I would expect the same of myself if
> I moved to another country.
>
> nancy
>

I agree with you. The ability to do the job should be the first
consideration, and good communication is essential in many public sector
jobs. This also means that in areas with significant non-English-speaking
populations, it is reasonable for the government to have Spanish (or
whatever) fluent workers in certain offices. After all, the job is to help
the public, right? Unfortunately there are some right-wingers who get their
knickers in a twist at this idea, and I have no patience with that.


--
Peter Aitken
 
"Peter Aitken" <[email protected]> wrote

> "Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> No, I really don't think it is at all acceptable to have to conduct
>> business
>> required by law with people who can't read my applications or understand
>> what I need from them. You shouldn't be hired if you can't do the job.
>> I don't think it's too much to ask. I would expect the same of myself if
>> I moved to another country.
>
> I agree with you. The ability to do the job should be the first
> consideration, and good communication is essential in many public sector
> jobs. This also means that in areas with significant non-English-speaking
> populations, it is reasonable for the government to have Spanish (or
> whatever) fluent workers in certain offices.

No problem with that, even then I would expect them to be fluent
in both languages. Even then, there is always going to be someone
showing up who needs help and only speaks Yugoslavian ... I guess
they'd better bring a friend who can translate.

> After all, the job is to help the public, right? Unfortunately there are
> some right-wingers who get their knickers in a twist at this idea, and I
> have no patience with that.

Ditto. I don't have to go to a Spanish speaking bodega or an Indian
goods store, but I do have to go to city hall on occasion to do business.
I need someone I can talk to, there.

nancy
 
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:38:59 GMT, "Dimitri" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>I too am behind the laws that require English proficiency - However, many years
>ago some of the immigrants wanted so desperately to "Americanize" that they
>denied their American born children of their roots - and cultural heritage.
>Also not a good thing. I would much rather have baklava as my roots than Oscar
>Mayer. LOL.
>
>Dimitri
>

Roots and culture will only carry you so far.
We see the ( extreme ) effect in Canada with Quebecois.

"When in Rome, do as the Romans do"

<rj>
 
On 30 Sep 2005 09:32:34 -0700, "Sheldon" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Your widdle twain has run offn its twack... alls ya gots to do is
>mandate that English proficiency be required to become a US citizen...
>the idea of administering a US citizenry exam in any other language but
>English is as ludicrous as the US printing multi-cultural money....
>next thing ya know we'll have $3 bills sporting a picture of a couple
>dago homos kissing. LOL
>
>Sheldon

We already have such a paradox.

You have to be a citizen to vote.
You have to speak English to be a citizen....
and yet,
Feds require that voting ballots be available in foreign languages.

???
<rj>
 
<RJ> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:38:59 GMT, "Dimitri" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >I too am behind the laws that require English proficiency - However, many years
> >ago some of the immigrants wanted so desperately to "Americanize" that they
> >denied their American born children of their roots - and cultural heritage.
> >Also not a good thing. I would much rather have baklava as my roots than Oscar
> >Mayer. LOL.
> >
> >Dimitri
> >
>
> Roots and culture will only carry you so far.
> We see the ( extreme ) effect in Canada with Quebecois.

Actually the Quebecois and the original poster share much in common.
They want other people to learn their language and conform to their
culture. Odd, when Americans do it, we are criticized (rightly so in
this case), but the Quebecois are given far more lattitude. Both the
original poster and the Quebecois are insular, racist, and intolerant.
Both deserve criticism.

Dean G.
 
Doug Kanter wrote:
> If English proficiency was required for citizenship, two things would
> happen. First, we'd be deprived of an awful lot of talent. That's
> serious. The next thing is frightening: **** Cheney would be
> president.

He isn't? At least the puppet master.

--

Joe Cilinceon
 
<RJ> wrote:

> You have to speak English to be a citizen....
> and yet,
> Feds require that voting ballots be available in foreign languages.


And the California DMV used to let you take the written test in one of 6
or more languages.

Andy
 
On 30 Sep 2005 07:52:58 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>US Citizen wrote:
>> This Was in a Tampa Newspaper....Please Read
>>
>> Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we continue
>> to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries that
>> came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice??????
>
>I imagine the Navaho, the Irquois etc feel much the same way.

You mean the people who arrived from asia?

>Pesky
>foreigners from England and Spain and the Netherlands and who knows
>where the riff-raff are coming from. Good grief, even Scots and
>Germans. It was all the fault of that blasted Italian.
>
>Neighbourhood has never been the same since.


Pan Ohco
 
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:55:23 GMT, Doug Kanter wrote:

>"Joan in GB-W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>> The city I live in recently put into local law an ordinance that English
>> be
>> the official language of the county. Anyway, when the side opposing the
>> legislation (I might add that that was my side) pointed out to them that
>> the
>> current immigrants are learning English far faster than OUR ancestors did
>> way back when, they ignored those facts.
>
>The idea of making it a law for government employment is stupid. Simply make
>English proficiency a requirement for each specific job that involves
>speaking to the public. There are plenty of jobs behind the scenes where
>your less-than-perfect won't frustrate the bejeezus out of 90% of the people
>you come into contact with.

There may be a job in government where the use of english is
unnecessary, but I can't think of one. If you don't have to
communicate with the public, you will have to communicate with your
boss, who does communicate with the public.

In my experience, I have found that if the person in question, intends
to stay in this county, they attempt to learn the language. If they
are intending to stay only until they pry enough gold out of the
street, and then return home, they will not learn.
And those who wish to stay, will have their children, translate or
teach them to speak english.




>


Pan Ohco
 
"<RJ>" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:38:59 GMT, "Dimitri" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>I too am behind the laws that require English proficiency - However, many
>>years
>>ago some of the immigrants wanted so desperately to "Americanize" that they
>>denied their American born children of their roots - and cultural heritage.
>>Also not a good thing. I would much rather have baklava as my roots than Oscar
>>Mayer. LOL.
>>
>>Dimitri
>>
>
> Roots and culture will only carry you so far.
> We see the ( extreme ) effect in Canada with Quebecois.
>
> "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"
>
> <rj>

Ya but the problem is - When in Rome doing as the Romanians.....

Dimitri
 
"Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:yRd%[email protected]:

>
> "Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "FDR" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> "Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>>> One city here did that to cries of racism blah blah blah ... well,
>>>> let the
>>>> people who think that such a bad idea go over to city hall and pick
>>>> up their CofO (don't ask) and other paperwork to sell a house and
>>>> no one understands what the hell you're looking for. Not
>>>> acceptable to me. I'm right behind the law that said, you want to
>>>> work for the city, you have to be able to communicate in English.
>>
>>> I'm sure there are jobs that would require a proficient use of the
>>> language. However, my grandfather came over from Italy in the 20's,
>>> didn't know the language, or learn it, but was good enough to work
>>> for the city sweeping streets. Should he have been deprived
>>> employment with the city?
>>
>> No, though I bet he'd have done well in a more skilled job had he
>> spoken the language. Before you get annoyed, there is nothing wrong
>> with being a street sweeper, someone had to do it, and it's hard
>> honest work. But even the most simple job is probably easier if you
>> can read directions to equipment, whatever. Those were far simpler
>> times. But, I digress.
>>
>> No, I really don't think it is at all acceptable to have to conduct
>> business
>> required by law with people who can't read my applications or
>> understand what I need from them. You shouldn't be hired if you
>> can't do the job. I don't think it's too much to ask. I would expect
>> the same of myself if I moved to another country.
>>
>> nancy
>>
>
> I'm thinking of real estate transactions at a county clerk's office,
> conducted by an employee who speaks little or no English. Could be
> interesting....

ROFL... I can see it now. I thought I'd bought a small retreat and wind up
owning The Grand Canyon.

Michael

--
Send email to dog30 at charter dot net
 
In article <YIc%[email protected]>,
"FDR" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Stan Horwitz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <QR%[email protected]>,
> > "FDR" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> "Dan Abel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> > In article <[email protected]>,
> >> > US Citizen <uscitizen@usa> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we
> >> >> continue
> >> >> to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries
> >> >
> >> > This is a joke, right? If not, then it must be a troll.
> >>
> >> When the poeple of other countries are becoming the majority, then
> >> Democracy
> >> will favor them.
> >
> > Perhaps, but here in the United States, we are NOT a democracy, nor have
> > we ever been one.
>
> I guess the Iraqis got it better than us.

Time will tell, but those who think living under a true democracy is a
good thing, such as President Bush apparently does, seem to forget the
presidential election fiasco in 2000.
 
"Dog3" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Doug Kanter" <[email protected]> wrote in
> news:yRd%[email protected]:
>
>>
>> "Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "FDR" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>>>> "Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote
>>>
>>>>> One city here did that to cries of racism blah blah blah ... well,
>>>>> let the
>>>>> people who think that such a bad idea go over to city hall and pick
>>>>> up their CofO (don't ask) and other paperwork to sell a house and
>>>>> no one understands what the hell you're looking for. Not
>>>>> acceptable to me. I'm right behind the law that said, you want to
>>>>> work for the city, you have to be able to communicate in English.
>>>
>>>> I'm sure there are jobs that would require a proficient use of the
>>>> language. However, my grandfather came over from Italy in the 20's,
>>>> didn't know the language, or learn it, but was good enough to work
>>>> for the city sweeping streets. Should he have been deprived
>>>> employment with the city?
>>>
>>> No, though I bet he'd have done well in a more skilled job had he
>>> spoken the language. Before you get annoyed, there is nothing wrong
>>> with being a street sweeper, someone had to do it, and it's hard
>>> honest work. But even the most simple job is probably easier if you
>>> can read directions to equipment, whatever. Those were far simpler
>>> times. But, I digress.
>>>
>>> No, I really don't think it is at all acceptable to have to conduct
>>> business
>>> required by law with people who can't read my applications or
>>> understand what I need from them. You shouldn't be hired if you
>>> can't do the job. I don't think it's too much to ask. I would expect
>>> the same of myself if I moved to another country.
>>>
>>> nancy
>>>
>>
>> I'm thinking of real estate transactions at a county clerk's office,
>> conducted by an employee who speaks little or no English. Could be
>> interesting....
>
> ROFL... I can see it now. I thought I'd bought a small retreat and wind
> up
> owning The Grand Canyon.

Or, the property you wanted, and 3 of your adjoining neighbors' plots, too.
:) No more fence disagreements!
 
"Pan Ohco" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:55:23 GMT, Doug Kanter wrote:
>
>>"Joan in GB-W" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>> The city I live in recently put into local law an ordinance that English
>>> be
>>> the official language of the county. Anyway, when the side opposing the
>>> legislation (I might add that that was my side) pointed out to them that
>>> the
>>> current immigrants are learning English far faster than OUR ancestors
>>> did
>>> way back when, they ignored those facts.
>>
>>The idea of making it a law for government employment is stupid. Simply
>>make
>>English proficiency a requirement for each specific job that involves
>>speaking to the public. There are plenty of jobs behind the scenes where
>>your less-than-perfect won't frustrate the bejeezus out of 90% of the
>>people
>>you come into contact with.
>
> There may be a job in government where the use of english is
> unnecessary, but I can't think of one. If you don't have to
> communicate with the public, you will have to communicate with your
> boss, who does communicate with the public.

Can't think of one? :) Forget government for the moment:

I know a couple of programmers who went to work immediately upon their
arrival from Lithuania. They were struggling with English, but since
programmers speak gibberish to begin with, these two were accepted easily,
even with the language barrier. They're learning quickly. I believe
government agencies sometimes have computer staff on the payroll.

In any big American city, you might be enlightened if you could walk into
the kitchen of a restaurant and meet the soux chef or saucier - two
important people who are *really* responsible for the food you get in many
places (as opposed to the head chef, who's probably in the office going over
budgets and tomorrow's deliveries).



> In my experience, I have found that if the person in question, intends
> to stay in this county, they attempt to learn the language. If they
> are intending to stay only until they pry enough gold out of the
> street, and then return home, they will not learn.
> And those who wish to stay, will have their children, translate or
> teach them to speak english.

Young kids will take care of themselves for reasons I'm sure you're aware
of. They'll learn from television and English speaking kids.

Adults benefit from immersion - being stuck in situations where they have no
choice but to communicate. The problem is that they are less likely to BE
spoken to spontaneously because if people realize they don't speak English,
many won't make the effort to struggle through a discussion of "how you get
to Maple Avenue".
 
Doug Kanter wrote:

> Young kids will take care of themselves for reasons I'm sure you're aware
> of. They'll learn from television and English speaking kids.

When I was a kid my best friend was German. He came here when he was 3 and we
met when we were 10. He and his sister spoke perfect English, but both parents
had acquired a good command of the language though they had distinct accents.
The town where I live has a lot of Dutch immigrants, but they typically abandon
Dutch and stick to English. You hear a slight accent in some of them, but most
arrive here quite fluent in English. I don't know what it is about Italians, but
they just don't ever seem to lose the accents or become terribly fluent in
English. The woman who lived next door to us is Italian, born here to parents
who had just immigrated. The parents bought the house next door to them. Nice
people, but it surprises me to hear them speak. After more than 50 years here
they sound like they just arrived.

A lot of immigrants tend to move to large cities with a large population of
their own culture. Toronto has huge populations of Chinese, Eat Indians,
Italians and Portuguese and they are able to get my in their own languages
without ever having to speak English.

> Adults benefit from immersion - being stuck in situations where they have no
> choice but to communicate. The problem is that they are less likely to BE
> spoken to spontaneously because if people realize they don't speak English,
> many won't make the effort to struggle through a discussion of "how you get
> to Maple Avenue".

Immersion is the only way to go. I learned more French in a few days when I went
with a friend to visit his grandparents. His grandmother spoke no English at
all. After a few days I was thinking in French. I also picked up a lot of
German from my old friend's family. They always spoke German amongst themselves,
and as I started catching on they spoke it with me. It is amazing how much you
pick up when you don't have the option of resorting to your first language.
 
"Dave Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Doug Kanter wrote:
>
>> Young kids will take care of themselves for reasons I'm sure you're aware
>> of. They'll learn from television and English speaking kids.
>
> When I was a kid my best friend was German. He came here when he was 3 and
> we
> met when we were 10. He and his sister spoke perfect English, but both
> parents
> had acquired a good command of the language though they had distinct
> accents.
> The town where I live has a lot of Dutch immigrants, but they typically
> abandon
> Dutch and stick to English. You hear a slight accent in some of them, but
> most
> arrive here quite fluent in English. I don't know what it is about
> Italians, but
> they just don't ever seem to lose the accents or become terribly fluent in
> English. The woman who lived next door to us is Italian, born here to
> parents
> who had just immigrated. The parents bought the house next door to them.
> Nice
> people, but it surprises me to hear them speak. After more than 50 years
> here
> they sound like they just arrived.
>
> A lot of immigrants tend to move to large cities with a large population
> of
> their own culture. Toronto has huge populations of Chinese, Eat Indians,
> Italians and Portuguese and they are able to get my in their own languages
> without ever having to speak English.
>
>> Adults benefit from immersion - being stuck in situations where they have
>> no
>> choice but to communicate. The problem is that they are less likely to BE
>> spoken to spontaneously because if people realize they don't speak
>> English,
>> many won't make the effort to struggle through a discussion of "how you
>> get
>> to Maple Avenue".
>
> Immersion is the only way to go. I learned more French in a few days when
> I went
> with a friend to visit his grandparents. His grandmother spoke no English
> at
> all. After a few days I was thinking in French. I also picked up a lot of
> German from my old friend's family. They always spoke German amongst
> themselves,
> and as I started catching on they spoke it with me. It is amazing how much
> you
> pick up when you don't have the option of resorting to your first
> language.
>
>
>

I'll add that Puerto Rico is *not* a great place for immersion. They speak
like the guys who read the disclaimers at the end of car leasing
commercials. :) Mexicans are slower and more melodic.
 
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