OT: USA



Pan Ohco wrote:

> There may be a job in government where the use of english is
> unnecessary, but I can't think of one. If you don't have to
> communicate with the public, you will have to communicate with your
> boss, who does communicate with the public.

It isn't frustrating for the public who call in. It can be a real PITA for the
employees who have to deal with them. Shortly before I retired I had a call from
a lady in the accounting office about my expense account. I couldn't understand
her, and she couldn't understand me. It was pathetic.

> In my experience, I have found that if the person in question, intends
> to stay in this county, they attempt to learn the language. If they
> are intending to stay only until they pry enough gold out of the
> street, and then return home, they will not learn.
> And those who wish to stay, will have their children, translate or
> teach them to speak english.

I have serious questions about ESL classes. I keep reading articles in the
newspaper about how school boards are having a hard time with their budgets and
are having difficulty finding the money for adult ESL classes. That leaves me
wondering why the school board is responsible for teaching English to
immigrants. We have two official languages in this country. Immigrants are
supposed to be able to speak one of those two, but we get thousands of them every
year who can speak neither. They are the ones who decided to move this country.
I think that it is their responsibility to learn the language.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Pan Ohco <[email protected]> wrote:


> In my experience, I have found that if the person in question, intends
> to stay in this county, they attempt to learn the language. If they
> are intending to stay only until they pry enough gold out of the
> street, and then return home, they will not learn.


That hasn't been my experience. As a child (in the 50s and 60s) I had
several Japanese-Americans friends. They even had names for the
different generations here in the US:

Issei - first-generation Japanese immigrants
Nisei - second-generation Japanese Americans
Sansei - third-generation Japanese Americans
Yonsei - fourth-generation Japanese Americans
Nikkei - Japanese Americans of all generations

The issei spoke no English. The nisei were bilingual. They spoke
Japanese with their parents, and English at school and with their
friends. The sansei (my friends) spoke no Japanese.

My daughter's best friend is Mexican. Her parents speak no English, but
have been here a long time. The friend is bilingual. She speaks
Spanish with her parents but speaks English like a native.
 
"Dave Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> That leaves me
> wondering why the school board is responsible for teaching English to
> immigrants.

Because Literacy Volunteers never has enough volunteer teachers, and
immigrants may not be able to afford private tutoring, if it's even
available in their particular town.


> We have two official languages in this country. Immigrants are
> supposed to be able to speak one of those two, but we get thousands of
> them every
> year who can speak neither. They are the ones who decided to move this
> country.
> I think that it is their responsibility to learn the language.
>

Two Arab terrorists make it into America using all sorts of forged
documents. They head straight for a diner after leaving the airport. In
Arabic, one says "I can't understand what any of the things on the menu
are!" His partner says "Quiet! We're in America now. We have to blend in -
switch to Spanish!"
 
Doug Kanter wrote:

> > That leaves me
> > wondering why the school board is responsible for teaching English to
> > immigrants.
>
> Because Literacy Volunteers never has enough volunteer teachers, and
> immigrants may not be able to afford private tutoring, if it's even
> available in their particular town.

Those are too reasons why they aren't getting it somewhere else but not good
reasons for the tax payers to be stuck with the cost of teaching someone to
speak the language of the language of the country to which they moved. It was
their decision to come here. They should have been prepared. They can afford
transportation here. They can afford to move their belongings or buy new
stuff. If they need language lessons, that is another thing which should be in
their budget.


> Two Arab terrorists make it into America using all sorts of forged
> documents. They head straight for a diner after leaving the airport. In
> Arabic, one says "I can't understand what any of the things on the menu
> are!" His partner says "Quiet! We're in America now. We have to blend in -
> switch to Spanish!"

LOL
 
"Dean G." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

> Actually the Quebecois and the original poster share much in common.
> They want other people to learn their language and conform to their
> culture. Odd, when Americans do it, we are criticized (rightly so in
> this case), but the Quebecois are given far more lattitude. Both the
> original poster and the Quebecois are insular, racist, and intolerant.
> Both deserve criticism.
>

You must not forget that the original incorporating document
of Canada, the British North America Act followed by all
versions of Canadian constitutional documents have enshrined
the biculturalism and bilingualism, not to mention differing legal
and educational systems as part of basic Canadian law. This
is definitely not the case in the US but is definitely the case
in Canada. The Quebecois are literally guaranteed language,
educational and legal rights in the Canadian constitution. Big
difference from their Southerly neighbors.

pavane
 
<RJ> wrote:
> On 30 Sep 2005 09:32:34 -0700, "Sheldon" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >Your widdle twain has run offn its twack... alls ya gots to do is
> >mandate that English proficiency be required to become a US citizen...
> >the idea of administering a US citizenry exam in any other language but
> >English is as ludicrous as the US printing multi-cultural money....
> >next thing ya know we'll have $3 bills sporting a picture of a couple
> >dago homos kissing. LOL
> >
> >Sheldon
>
> We already have such a paradox.
>
> You have to be a citizen to vote.
> You have to speak English to be a citizen....

Err, why is that? I thought that a person born in the USA was
'automatically' an American citizen. Applying a language requirement
for a 6 month old might be seen as unreasonable.

It would not be hard to grow up in a non-English speaking enclave I
would have thought. Certainly old friends of the family from Michigan
(early 20th C) never spoke any English until they went to school. They
lived in a German part of town.

I would also not be suprised to hear that some native Americans,
Indians and Inuit don't speak English or that 10th generation Americans
of latin decsent in California or New Mexico or Texas don't speak
English or that Cajuns in Louisiana don't speak English.


> and yet,
> Feds require that voting ballots be available in foreign languages.

Maybe it is not all that bad an idea to let your citizens know how to
vote in a language that they understand. Also just because one speaks
the language does not mean that one reads it. I can speak a few words
of Arabic but I cannot read anything in Arabic

John Kane
Kingston ON
 
"pavane" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%2i%[email protected]...


> You must not forget that the original incorporating document
> of Canada, the British North America Act followed by all
> versions of Canadian constitutional documents have enshrined
> the biculturalism and bilingualism, not to mention differing legal
> and educational systems as part of basic Canadian law. This
> is definitely not the case in the US but is definitely the case
> in Canada. The Quebecois are literally guaranteed language,
> educational and legal rights in the Canadian constitution. Big
> difference from their Southerly neighbors.
>
> pavane

IMHO the language question and packaging requirements of Quebec are absurd. Why
the hell don't they just form their own country and import everything from
France and be done with it.

Enough of this.

They are costing time money and productivity to their suppliers. Pretty soon
we'll have
tri-lingual packaging - French Italian and Hebrew.

Dimitri
 
"Dimitri" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:VJj%[email protected]...
>
> "pavane" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:%2i%[email protected]...
>
>
> > You must not forget that the original incorporating document
> > of Canada, the British North America Act followed by all
> > versions of Canadian constitutional documents have enshrined
> > the biculturalism and bilingualism, not to mention differing legal
> > and educational systems as part of basic Canadian law. This
> > is definitely not the case in the US but is definitely the case
> > in Canada. The Quebecois are literally guaranteed language,
> > educational and legal rights in the Canadian constitution. Big
> > difference from their Southerly neighbors.
> >
> > pavane
>
> IMHO the language question and packaging requirements of Quebec are
absurd. Why
> the hell don't they just form their own country and import everything
from
> France and be done with it.
>
> Enough of this.
>
> They are costing time money and productivity to their suppliers.
Pretty soon
> we'll have
> tri-lingual packaging - French Italian and Hebrew.
>

Oh absolutely! One of the world's most tolerant and sympathetic legal
acts
should be scrapped after having been in force since 1867 because it
might
cause commercial producers "time and money." Brilliant logic, equally
brilliant humanitarianism.

pavane
 
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 19:25:30 GMT, Doug Kanter wrote:

>"Pan Ohco" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> There may be a job in government where the use of english is
>> unnecessary, but I can't think of one. If you don't have to
>> communicate with the public, you will have to communicate with your
>> boss, who does communicate with the public.
>
>Can't think of one? :) Forget government for the moment:

The OP statement was about government workers. I was responding to the
OP.
>
>I know a couple of programmers who went to work immediately upon their
>arrival from Lithuania. They were struggling with English, but since
>programmers speak gibberish to begin with, these two were accepted easily,
>even with the language barrier. They're learning quickly. I believe
>government agencies sometimes have computer staff on the payroll.

Eventually, because the power structure of the U.S. basically speaks
english ( I know our british posters disagree) , they will have to
report to someone who speaks english.
>
>In any big American city, you might be enlightened if you could walk into
>the kitchen of a restaurant and meet the soux chef or saucier - two
>important people who are *really* responsible for the food you get in many
>places (as opposed to the head chef, who's probably in the office going over
>budgets and tomorrow's deliveries).

Again it's possible for the back of the house to speak other then
english, but some one is going to have to be able to speak to the
majority of people in this country.
>
>
>> In my experience, I have found that if the person in question, intends
>> to stay in this county, they attempt to learn the language. If they
>> are intending to stay only until they pry enough gold out of the
>> street, and then return home, they will not learn.
>> And those who wish to stay, will have their children, translate or
>> teach them to speak english.
>
>Young kids will take care of themselves for reasons I'm sure you're aware
>of. They'll learn from television and English speaking kids.
What I wanted to type was that the children would translate for , or
teach the adults to speak english.
>
>Adults benefit from immersion - being stuck in situations where they have no
>choice but to communicate. The problem is that they are less likely to BE
>spoken to spontaneously because if people realize they don't speak English,
>many won't make the effort to struggle through a discussion of "how you get
>to Maple Avenue".

I've found that if someone attempt to speak english, they will receive
a lot of help. As I did when I was in other countries, and attempted
(badly) to speak their language.
>


Pan Ohco
 
Dave Smith wrote:

> I have serious questions about ESL classes. I keep reading articles in the
> newspaper about how school boards are having a hard time with their budgets and
> are having difficulty finding the money for adult ESL classes. That leaves me
> wondering why the school board is responsible for teaching English to
> immigrants. We have two official languages in this country. Immigrants are
> supposed to be able to speak one of those two, but we get thousands of them every
> year who can speak neither. They are the ones who decided to move this country.
> I think that it is their responsibility to learn the language.

ESL classes where I taught ESL were funded by block grant money, not
school tax money from the federal and state governments set aside
specifically for literacy in English. ESL came under the county
literacy program, a separate entity from the school districts in the
area. It encompassed not only ESL but functional illiteracy in native
English speakers. The goal was to increase overall literacy and
employment skills in the county. There was at least a one year waiting
list for ESL classes because of a lack of VOLUNTEER teachers. The grant
money only covered the cost of materials, space and the two fulltime
administrators of the program. None of the 10 teachers was paid for
teaching or for training time. The local churches also set up ESL
classes to handle the overflow from the county run programs. These
programs catered to more advanced students who were refining their
English skills (or improving their literacy level in their native
English language) for the job market - assisting with things like
standardized testing for college, for licensing exams as nurses, etc.

I found living here in Honduras, many of the larger stores make it a
point to have at least one staff member on the floor who speaks
English. Their job is to assist those of us Anglos who are fumbling
through learning Spanish.

SD
 
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:06:13 -0400, Dave Smith
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Pan Ohco wrote:
>
>> There may be a job in government where the use of english is
>> unnecessary, but I can't think of one. If you don't have to
>> communicate with the public, you will have to communicate with your
>> boss, who does communicate with the public.
>
>It isn't frustrating for the public who call in. It can be a real PITA for the
>employees who have to deal with them. Shortly before I retired I had a call from
>a lady in the accounting office about my expense account. I couldn't understand
>her, and she couldn't understand me. It was pathetic.
>
>> In my experience, I have found that if the person in question, intends
>> to stay in this county, they attempt to learn the language. If they
>> are intending to stay only until they pry enough gold out of the
>> street, and then return home, they will not learn.
>> And those who wish to stay, will have their children, translate or
>> teach them to speak english.
>
>I have serious questions about ESL classes. I keep reading articles in the
>newspaper about how school boards are having a hard time with their budgets and
>are having difficulty finding the money for adult ESL classes. That leaves me
>wondering why the school board is responsible for teaching English to
>immigrants. We have two official languages in this country. Immigrants are
>supposed to be able to speak one of those two, but we get thousands of them every
>year who can speak neither. They are the ones who decided to move this country.
>I think that it is their responsibility to learn the language.

Because most of the ones they are teaching happen to be illegal.
 
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 15:23:58 GMT, "FDR"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Joan in GB-W" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> The city I live in recently put into local law an ordinance that English
>>> be
>>> the official language of the county. Anyway, when the side opposing the
>>> legislation (I might add that that was my side) pointed out to them that
>>> the
>>> current immigrants are learning English far faster than OUR ancestors did
>>> way back when, they ignored those facts.
>>
>> One city here did that to cries of racism blah blah blah ... well, let the
>> people who think that such a bad idea go over to city hall and pick up
>> their CofO (don't ask) and other paperwork to sell a house and no one
>> understands what the hell you're looking for. Not acceptable to me.
>> I'm right behind the law that said, you want to work for the city, you
>> have to be able to communicate in English.
>>
>> nancy
>
>I'm sure there are jobs that would require a proficient use of the language.
>However, my grandfather came over from Italy in the 20's, didn't know the
>language, or learn it, but was good enough to work for the city sweeping
>streets. Should he have been deprived employment with the city?
>
yes
 
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:37:50 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "FDR" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>> "Nancy Young" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>>>> One city here did that to cries of racism blah blah blah ... well, let
>>>> the
>>>> people who think that such a bad idea go over to city hall and pick up
>>>> their CofO (don't ask) and other paperwork to sell a house and no one
>>>> understands what the hell you're looking for. Not acceptable to me.
>>>> I'm right behind the law that said, you want to work for the city, you
>>>> have to be able to communicate in English.
>>
>>> I'm sure there are jobs that would require a proficient use of the
>>> language. However, my grandfather came over from Italy in the 20's,
>>> didn't know the language, or learn it, but was good enough to work for
>>> the city sweeping streets. Should he have been deprived employment with
>>> the city?
>>
>> No, though I bet he'd have done well in a more skilled job had he spoken
>> the language. Before you get annoyed, there is nothing wrong with being
>> a street sweeper, someone had to do it, and it's hard honest work. But
>> even the most simple job is probably easier if you can read directions to
>> equipment, whatever. Those were far simpler times. But, I digress.
>>
>> No, I really don't think it is at all acceptable to have to conduct
>> business
>> required by law with people who can't read my applications or understand
>> what I need from them. You shouldn't be hired if you can't do the job.
>> I don't think it's too much to ask. I would expect the same of myself if
>> I moved to another country.
>>
>> nancy
>>
>
>I'm thinking of real estate transactions at a county clerk's office,
>conducted by an employee who speaks little or no English. Could be
>interesting....
>
Then don't ever go to Tucson or Las Cruces and parts of El Paso.
 
On 30 Sep 2005 10:11:57 -0700, "Dean G." <[email protected]> wrote:

>
><RJ> wrote:
>> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 14:38:59 GMT, "Dimitri" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >I too am behind the laws that require English proficiency - However, many years
>> >ago some of the immigrants wanted so desperately to "Americanize" that they
>> >denied their American born children of their roots - and cultural heritage.
>> >Also not a good thing. I would much rather have baklava as my roots than Oscar
>> >Mayer. LOL.
>> >
>> >Dimitri
>> >
>>
>> Roots and culture will only carry you so far.
>> We see the ( extreme ) effect in Canada with Quebecois.
>
>Actually the Quebecois and the original poster share much in common.
>They want other people to learn their language and conform to their
>culture. Odd, when Americans do it, we are criticized (rightly so in
>this case), but the Quebecois are given far more lattitude. Both the
>original poster and the Quebecois are insular, racist, and intolerant.
>Both deserve criticism.
>
>Dean G.

They should and anyone coming to this country should speak our
language...American English.
 
On 30 Sep 2005 07:52:58 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>US Citizen wrote:
>> This Was in a Tampa Newspaper....Please Read
>>
>> Will we still be the Country of choice and still be America if we continue
>> to make the changes forced on us by the people from other countries that
>> came to live in America because it is the Country of Choice??????
>
>I imagine the Navaho, the Irquois etc feel much the same way. Pesky
>foreigners from England and Spain and the Netherlands and who knows
>where the riff-raff are coming from. Good grief, even Scots and
>Germans. It was all the fault of that blasted Italian.
>
>Neighbourhood has never been the same since.

I am half Apache and part of the Mescalro tribe and YES, we do fell
the same way. If you come to the United States then you should be able
to speak American English and if you come to my tribal lands don't get
upset if someone doesn't speak American English.
 
On Sat, 01 Oct 2005 18:35:34 GMT, Graphic Queen wrote:

> On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:37:50 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I'm thinking of real estate transactions at a county clerk's office,
> >conducted by an employee who speaks little or no English. Could be
> >interesting....
> >
> Then don't ever go to Tucson or Las Cruces and parts of El Paso.

or San Francisco (different language though), same with NYC.
 
On 30 Sep 2005 10:11:57 -0700, "Dean G." <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Actually the Quebecois and the original poster share much in common.
>They want other people to learn their language and conform to their

Lets just say I decide to chuck everything and decide to move to: Germany or
Italy.

In neither country is English the language of the land, but because I am an
immigrant ITS OK for me to move to either of these countries and do what one in
particular group does in the US refuse to the learn the language? ? ? I am NOT
talking about tourists. I am talking about landed immigrants who have moved
permanently to the country.

I don't think so. If I were to move to either of the examples I think its ON ME
to LEARN the LANQUAGE of the LAND. In the USA thats ENGLISH, and I support
1000000% any law that clearly states, that business will be conducted in that
language and thats just too bad.

Many immigrants especially from a certain region having a common language DOWN
RIGHT REFUSE TO ADAPT and MELT (Remember that MELTING POT from school?) into the
US society. Again lets reverse the table if this "gringo" decided to move to one
of these countries and REFUSED to learn the language see if I would get catered
to like this group does in this country. Not hardly, it would probably escalate
the hostility. Oh, its do as I say, not as I do..... ohhh.

As for Quebecois I happened to live in Toronto during one of the separatist
periods. All I got to say is GOOD RIDDANCE! How do we cut the dam thing off and
send Quebec back to "mother snob land." Why does a province and language
preference that is in the MINORITY get so much preferential treatment? ? Labels
must be in both language with the minority language forward? ? ? WHY? In
Quebec, OK what ever, but in downtown Toronto? I could spit on more people who
probably speak more languages OTHER THAN that particular language before I found
1 who did. Matter of fact I bet I don't find any. Indian peninsula with its
dialects, Creole, Chinese, Korean, and more I bet would be more, no WAY more
prevalent.

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"Dean G." wrote:

> > Roots and culture will only carry you so far.
> > We see the ( extreme ) effect in Canada with Quebecois.
>
> Actually the Quebecois and the original poster share much in common.
> They want other people to learn their language and conform to their
> culture. Odd, when Americans do it, we are criticized (rightly so in
> this case), but the Quebecois are given far more lattitude. Both the
> original poster and the Quebecois are insular, racist, and intolerant.
> Both deserve criticism.

The Quebecois should not be confused with the rest of French Canadians which make up a
significant portion of the population of New Brunswick and pockets of French Canadian
settlements across northern Ontario, and in most other other provinces. Most of them
are bilingual or uniligual English speakers. I have a lot of French Canadian friends
who are quite antagonistic toward Quebecers. I can't help but agree that Quebecois
tend to be insular, racist and intolerant.
 
Dave Smith wrote:
> "Dean G." wrote:
>
>>> Roots and culture will only carry you so far.
>>> We see the ( extreme ) effect in Canada with Quebecois.
>>
>> Actually the Quebecois and the original poster share much in common.
>> They want other people to learn their language and conform to their
>> culture. Odd, when Americans do it, we are criticized (rightly so in
>> this case), but the Quebecois are given far more lattitude. Both the
>> original poster and the Quebecois are insular, racist, and
>> intolerant.
>> Both deserve criticism.
>
> The Quebecois should not be confused with the rest of French
> Canadians which make up a significant portion of the population of
> New Brunswick and pockets of French Canadian settlements across
> northern Ontario, and in most other other provinces. Most of them are
> bilingual or uniligual English speakers. I have a lot of French
> Canadian friends who are quite antagonistic toward Quebecers. I
> can't help but agree that Quebecois tend to be insular, racist and
> intolerant.

Right on!
The average French Canadian has a love for this (Canada) country that equals
his love for "La Belle Province".
Those that would promote a 'separatist' view are only interested in
political power that has no advantage for their compatriates.
The USA would love for those wrong thinking individuals to attain power.
This would make it much easier to subjugate the rest of Canada to their
(USA) rule.

Ken.
 
On Fri, 30 Sep 2005 16:59:10 GMT, "Peter Aitken" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I agree with you. The ability to do the job should be the first
>consideration, and good communication is essential in many public sector
>jobs. This also means that in areas with significant non-English-speaking
>populations, it is reasonable for the government to have Spanish (or
>whatever) fluent workers in certain offices. After all, the job is to help
>the public, right? Unfortunately there are some right-wingers who get their
>knickers in a twist at this idea, and I have no patience with that.

Reverse this and go to country x, would YOU the ENGLISH speaker be offered this
option? ? ? ? ? NO. Not even a chance, the general result would be "rude
american" and you wouldn't know it.

And I am one of those people who get their "knickers in a twist at this idea,
and I have no patience with that...." YOU BET! Tourists I can understand, but
immigrants (legal or illegal) you CHOSE to MOVE and LIVE here so you need to
ASSMILATE and MELT in to the country.

Give the drivers test in language x. OK, let me check..........traffic signs in
other languages ? NOPE! Then why give the test in another language. Make the
mistake of stoping a non english speaking motorist......Lets see wait 45+
minutes to get a translator IF they are working ? ? NOT! Send them on their way
and hope they don't kill any one. Don't think it happens.....boy have I got some
great land in south Florida for you.
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