OT: Words from a great man

  • Thread starter Kurgan Gringioni
  • Start date



Gunner Asch wrote:
>
> Iraq has been an interesting conflict. We won the war..and the peace
> has been kicking our asses until recently. No thanks to continued
> support to our enemies by Iran.
>

You haven't won anything but scorn and contempt. Never mind the Jews in
Israel, you're perfectly happy murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqis
for no reason.
 
On Nov 12, 12:20 am, Gunner Asch <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 06:38:02 -0000, "[email protected]"
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On Nov 11, 1:21 am, Gunner Asch <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >> It always takes men, materials and time to learn to fight THIS war.
> >> The nature of the beast.

>
> >> Clauswitz stated that no battle plan survives first contact with the
> >> enemy.

>
> >Our strategists (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith et al)
> >decided to cut out the middleman, by disposing with
> >the battle plan _before_ contact with the enemy.
> >Very efficient. Part of the Revolution in Military
> >Affairs, I expect.

>
> >Ben

>
> Which battle plan did they dispose of?
>
> Your opinion..that of a Bush/Conservative basher, is noted.
>
> Or will you actually provide some proof that they "disposed of the
> battle plan" and what it was.


http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-06-02-white-usat_x.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A256-2003Oct8?language=printer

>From the first article:

Rumsfeld and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz
criticized the Army's chief of staff, Gen. Eric Shinseki,
after Shinseki told Congress in February [2003] that
the occupation could require "several hundred thousand
troops." Wolfowitz called Shinseki's estimate "wildly
off the mark."

>From the second:

Most notably, [Wolfowitz] lauded Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, with
whom he clashed publicly last spring about the likely size of
the U.S. occupation force that would be needed in postwar
Iraq. When Shinseki left office as Army chief of staff in
June [2003], neither Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld nor
Wolfowitz attended his retirement ceremony, a breach of protocol
that raised eyebrows across the service.

Both of these articles are from 2003, at which time
it was already clear that we'd failed to secure the
peace [including to Army secretary White!], but we've
suffered several more years of light-at-the-end-of-
the-tunnel-ism from leaders who can't admit that they
tried to do it on the cheap.

> Iraq has been an interesting conflict. We won the war..and the peace
> has been kicking our asses until recently. No thanks to continued
> support to our enemies by Iran.


Anybody who didn't game out that Iran would resist the
establishment of a friendly client state of ours in Iraq
was criminally negligent.

You don't win wars. You need to also win the peace that
comes after the war. If you lose that or it doesn't
achieve your objectives, you lost the war.

Ben
 
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:32:53 +0100, Kyle Legate <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Gunner Asch wrote:
>>
>> Iraq has been an interesting conflict. We won the war..and the peace
>> has been kicking our asses until recently. No thanks to continued
>> support to our enemies by Iran.
>>

>You haven't won anything but scorn and contempt. Never mind the Jews in
>Israel, you're perfectly happy murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqis
>for no reason.



Geeze...another Mooreon nutbar spewing lies like water from a busted
sewer line.

Heads up Kayle...We hold you and yours in contempt. So bite me.

Laugh laugh laugh

Gunner
 
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:54:15 -0700, Howard Kveck
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Kyle Legate <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>> Gunner Asch wrote:
>> >
>> > Iraq has been an interesting conflict. We won the war..and the peace
>> > has been kicking our asses until recently. No thanks to continued
>> > support to our enemies by Iran.
>> >

>> You haven't won anything but scorn and contempt. Never mind the Jews in
>> Israel, you're perfectly happy murdering hundreds of thousands of Iraqis
>> for no reason.

>
> He doesn't understand the difference between winning the "battle" and winning the
>"war". The battle was won but the war is far from won - and will likely never be won.


Like Germany and Japan? Oh..gosh..we still have troops there.

Hey..whats the exit strategy for Germany?

Laugh laugh laugh

Gunner
 
Howard Kveck wrote:
>> He doesn't understand the difference between winning the "battle" and
>> winning the
>>"war". The battle was won but the war is far from won - and will likely
>>never be won.


Gunner Asch wrote:
> Like Germany and Japan? Oh..gosh..we still have troops there.
> Hey..whats the exit strategy for Germany?


Its a pity those German insurgents didn't put an IED under Rumsfelds
posterior.
 
On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:44:54 -0800, pyotr filipivich <[email protected]>
wrote:

>After a Computer crash and the demise of civilization, it was learned
>Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote on Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:04:54
>GMT in alt.machines.cnc :
>>In article
>><[email protected]>,
>> Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7 Nov, 01:04, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> > The victors write the books and there would've been 10s of millions
>>> > more alive to read them.
>>>
>>> This is of course true - but you probably need to remember that the
>>> Allies didn't believe that a significant number of Jews (and gays,
>>> etc...) were being killed until the second half of 1944 (when they
>>> found the concentration camps). Certainly no-one would have believed
>>> that the Holocaust would take place in the 1930s.

>>
>>Why not? Stalin had already killed 10-20 million.

>
> A trifling detail denied by the New York Times and it's Pulitzer
>Prize winning correspondents.


It's always nice to count all the Germans Stalin killed and all
those Mao had killed under the boot of Japan PLUS any that died
from weather-induced crop problems, floods, etc.

Wingers lie about numbers much larger than 2. Are they short
of fingers to count on?

BTW, The US rail barrons may have killed 2,000,000 rail workers.
Or was it just a mere 200,000? Huge number in any case
--
Cliff
 
On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:41:00 -0800, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

>The Germans never located most of the Brit
>radar sights because they had no clue they existed


Actually, the early British electronic aircraft detection systems were
not radars at all IIRC.
--
Cliff
 
On Tue, 6 Nov 2007 15:22:51 -0800, "Phil Holman" <piholmanc@yourservice> wrote:

>"Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Nov 6, 1:28 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "A preventative war, to my mind, is an impossibility. I don't believe
>>> there is such a thing, and frankly I wouldn't even listen to anyone
>>> seriously that came in and talked about such a thing."
>>>
>>> - Dwight David Eisenhower, 1953
>>>

>>
>> I'd bet a boatload of money that most of Europe wishes they'd gone to
>> war with Germany somewhere between 1933 and '35.
>> Bill C
>>

>
>Wishful thinking reinforced by hindsight. It would never have happened;
>"peace for out time" (Neville Chamberlain) was a much more powerful
>lure.


Had the US repubs NOT kept the US out of the League of Nations ... but
many of them were backing ****** I think.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations
--
Cliff
 
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:04:58 -0800, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

>True, but by 1935 the Germans had basically torn up the Treaty of
>Versailles


How many have the neocons torn up?
More than a dozen?
--
Cliff
 
On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:04:54 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article
><[email protected]>,
> Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 7 Nov, 01:04, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > The victors write the books and there would've been 10s of millions
>> > more alive to read them.

>>
>> This is of course true - but you probably need to remember that the
>> Allies didn't believe that a significant number of Jews (and gays,
>> etc...) were being killed until the second half of 1944 (when they
>> found the concentration camps). Certainly no-one would have believed
>> that the Holocaust would take place in the 1930s.

>
>Why not? Stalin had already killed 10-20 million.


HUH?
--
Cliff
 
On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:50:47 -0000, Pete <[email protected]> wrote:

>(and a reasonable fraction of those who stayed
>would've had no trouble getting out).


The US wants no refugees from Iraq !!!
--
Cliff
 
On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:17:49 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

>They would be marched across vast tracts of
>territory to their new place. Never mind if they died on
>the march.


Those poor Indians ...
--
Cliff
 
On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:46:13 -0000, Pete <[email protected]> wrote:

>Yes - but I think there's still a lot of debate as to what the numbers
>actually are (and yes, I did know about the Ukraine - along with the
>manufactured famine he ordered that anyone stealing food should be
>shot in sight!)


DANG !!!
And herr shrubbie's orders seem to be the same if he (claims he) fears
a virus ...
--
Cliff
 
On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:46:13 -0000, Pete <[email protected]> wrote:

>I think that doesn't really help your argument. Yes, he killed at
>least 20 million by 1953, probably a lot more - but before WWII
>started, 10 million seems unlikely and 20 million is far too high.
>Most of his killing was during and after the war (forced relocations
>were almost entirely during and after the war). Incidentally, you'll
>find some people go up even as high as 60 million.
>
>The West didn't want to believe that Stalin was doing any such thing,
>though - although some of that was probably realpolitik (e.g. the
>Katyn massacre).


Stalin was just another crazed winger.
--
Cliff
 
On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 21:48:09 GMT, "J. Carroll" <[email protected]> wrote:

>I'll see your 50 million and raise you one cross posting maniac - Cliff <G>
>LOL


Let's see some honset thread drift <G>.
--
Cliff
 
On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:44:36 -0800, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

>I do find it impressive that someone who thinks himself educated would think
>of George Bush as stupid or uneducated. Even if he were are you so stupid
>yourself to suppose that he doesn't have a bit better advice from experts
>better than you?


Well, he DID have all those warnings from Clinton's group .... or not ..
it was his choice to ignore them & just tell lies & start wars.

Found those "WMDs" yet?

There don't seem to be any at all in Iraq .... just
as many have known all along .... Hussain Kamal had been
in charge of all such programs & long ago defected (in 1995)
... AFTER he had (on Saddam's orders) had them all (what
few there may once have been) destroyed.

"The interview was conducted in Amman on 22 August 1995, 15 days after Kamel
left Iraq."
[
In the transcript of the interview, Kamel states categorically:

"I ordered destruction of all chemical weapons. All weapons - biological,
chemical, missile, nuclear were destroyed"
]

Consider:
So when the neocons claimed that they knew & had irrefutable proof
and refused to tell any that asked?
When they set up their plans to tell lies?

Can you use this excuse to break into your neighbor's house,
steal his things, murder him & his family, burn the house down,
call all your other neighbors that would not help you "terrorists",
and get off with huge prizes from the police?

"Officer, someday he might have had a BB gun in his basement. If
he ever got one he might have hurt someone's cat or invaded
Antartica with it ."

It's murder, pure & simple. Of about ~ 650,000 ++ ... plus
~ 2,000,000 now homeless IN Iraq and another ~ 2,000,000
(those that could afford it) refugees in other nations. Of those
~ 4,000,000 the US has taken in about 20 over all the years.

"If any one bring an accusation of any crime before the elders, and
does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if it be a capital
offense charged, be put to death." - Third Law, The Code of Hammurabi
written in about 1786 BC. In what is now (or was) Iraq.

The Neocon Menace is worse by far than the Communist Menace
ever was.
http://www.lincoln-ma.com/news_archive/documentpages/peacebuilders.htm

Famous Republican saying: "Everything is fine in politics as long as you
don't get caught in bed with a live man, or a dead woman.”

"I add up to a Republican Senate and Republican House. You may end up
with a different math but you are entitled to your math and I'm entitled
to THE math." - Karl Rove

"Cheney shoots somebody in the face and it's no big deal. But Clinton? He gets
impeached for it."

[
Quotes: Family Guy: Peter
[Riding a circus elephant]
Peter: Look Lois, the two symbols of the Republican Party: an elephant, and a
fat white guy who is threatened by change.
]

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different
results." - Albert Einstein

Considering the events of recent years, the US has a long way
to go to regain its credibility and reputation with the world.

"Lord of the Right Wing"
http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2003/f_lorw-p1.php

SureShot Cheney is no Dan Quayle !!
"If you repeat a lie often enough, then it becomes a Bush policy."

"You Have To Keep Repeating Things To Catapult The Propaganda". -
george w. bush on May 24 2005

"You can't be the president and the head of the military at the same time,"
Bush told a news conference.

The Bush Doctrine: Lie, lie some more, create ultimate disasters,
take vacation.

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/Cost-of-War/Cost-of-War-3.html

"Moogs, would you buy it for a quarter?"

"Rumour has it that the intrepid New Zealanders have finally discovered
two new uses for sheep. Meat and wool."
--
Cliff
 
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 06:38:02 -0000, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Nov 11, 1:21 am, Gunner Asch <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> It always takes men, materials and time to learn to fight THIS war.
>> The nature of the beast.
>>
>> Clauswitz stated that no battle plan survives first contact with the
>> enemy.

>
>Our strategists (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith et al)
>decided to cut out the middleman, by disposing with
>the battle plan _before_ contact with the enemy.
>Very efficient. Part of the Revolution in Military
>Affairs, I expect.


Poems for "The New World Order" (AKA WW-IV) by Donald Rumsfeld:

[
The Unknown


As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.
—Feb. 12, 2002, Department of Defense news briefing


Glass Box


You know, it's the old glass box at the—
At the gas station,
Where you're using those little things
Trying to pick up the prize,
And you can't find it.
It's—


And it's all these arms are going down in there,
And so you keep dropping it
And picking it up again and moving it,
But—


Some of you are probably too young to remember those—
Those glass boxes,
But—


But they used to have them
At all the gas stations
When I was a kid.
—Dec. 6, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing


A Confession


Once in a while,
I'm standing here, doing something.
And I think,
"What in the world am I doing here?"
It's a big surprise.
—May 16, 2001, interview with the New York Times


Happenings


You're going to be told lots of things.
You get told things every day that don't happen.


It doesn't seem to bother people, they don't—
It's printed in the press.
The world thinks all these things happen.
They never happened.


Everyone's so eager to get the story
Before in fact the story's there
That the world is constantly being fed
Things that haven't happened.


All I can tell you is,
It hasn't happened.
It's going to happen.
—Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing


The Digital Revolution


Oh my goodness gracious,
What you can buy off the Internet
In terms of overhead photography!


A trained ape can know an awful lot
Of what is going on in this world,
Just by punching on his mouse
For a relatively modest cost!
—June 9, 2001, following European trip


The Situation


Things will not be necessarily continuous.
The fact that they are something other than perfectly continuous
Ought not to be characterized as a pause.
There will be some things that people will see.
There will be some things that people won't see.
And life goes on.
—Oct. 12, 2001, Department of Defense news briefing


Clarity


I think what you'll find,
I think what you'll find is,
Whatever it is we do substantively,
There will be near-perfect clarity
As to what it is.


And it will be known,
And it will be known to the Congress,
And it will be known to you,
Probably before we decide it,
But it will be known.
—Feb. 28, 2003, Department of Defense briefing


<http://dod.gov/>


<http://slate.msn.com/id/2081042/>
]
--
Cliff