OT: Words from a great man

[Cliff]

On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:01:55 -0800, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:

>"Gunner Asch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> Those who are ignorant of history..or give the actors a pass...are
>> doomed to repeat it.
>>
>> Liberals for the most party..the doomer antiwar ones at the least,
>> should be taken promptly out and hung before they condeme the entire
>> Middle East to that which they condemed South East Asia, all for the
>> sake of partisan power play.
>
>The Liberals take the easy road - they deny that any of this happened. Then
>they claim that Socialism in the guise of "Liberalism" is a good thing.
>

Found those "WMDs" yet?
--
Cliff

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 08:34:52 -0000, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Nov 12, 12:20 am, Gunner Asch <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 06:38:02 -0000, "[email protected]"
>>
>>
>>
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On Nov 11, 1:21 am, Gunner Asch <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> It always takes men, materials and time to learn to fight THIS war.
>> >> The nature of the beast.
>>
>> >> Clauswitz stated that no battle plan survives first contact with the
>> >> enemy.
>>
>> >Our strategists (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith et al)
>> >decided to cut out the middleman, by disposing with
>> >the battle plan _before_ contact with the enemy.
>> >Very efficient. Part of the Revolution in Military
>> >Affairs, I expect.
>>
>> >Ben
>>
>> Which battle plan did they dispose of?
>>
>> Your opinion..that of a Bush/Conservative basher, is noted.
>>
>> Or will you actually provide some proof that they "disposed of the
>> battle plan" and what it was.
>
>http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-06-02-white-usat_x.htm
>http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A256-2003Oct8?language=printer
>
>>From the first article:
> Rumsfeld and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz
> criticized the Army's chief of staff, Gen. Eric Shinseki,
> after Shinseki told Congress in February [2003] that
> the occupation could require "several hundred thousand
> troops." Wolfowitz called Shinseki's estimate "wildly
> off the mark."

Yes. And the battle plan was what again?
>
>>From the second:
> Most notably, [Wolfowitz] lauded Gen. Eric K. Shinseki, with
> whom he clashed publicly last spring about the likely size of
> the U.S. occupation force that would be needed in postwar
> Iraq. When Shinseki left office as Army chief of staff in
> June [2003], neither Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld nor
> Wolfowitz attended his retirement ceremony, a breach of protocol
> that raised eyebrows across the service.
>

Yes. And the battle plan was what again?
..
>Both of these articles are from 2003, at which time
>it was already clear that we'd failed to secure the
>peace [including to Army secretary White!], but we've
>suffered several more years of light-at-the-end-of-
>the-tunnel-ism from leaders who can't admit that they
>tried to do it on the cheap.
Yes. And the battle plan was what again?
>
>> Iraq has been an interesting conflict. We won the war..and the peace
>> has been kicking our asses until recently. No thanks to continued
>> support to our enemies by Iran.
>
>Anybody who didn't game out that Iran would resist the
>establishment of a friendly client state of ours in Iraq
>was criminally negligent.

Your opinion is noted.
>
>You don't win wars. You need to also win the peace that
>comes after the war. If you lose that or it doesn't
>achieve your objectives, you lost the war.
>
>Ben

Yes. And the battle plan was what again?

Gunner

 

[[email protected]]

On Nov 12, 7:52 am, Cliff <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 05:04:58 -0800, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> >True, but by 1935 the Germans had basically torn up the Treaty of
> >Versailles
>
> How many have the neocons torn up?
> More than a dozen?

By all means name 2.

 

[[email protected]]

On Nov 12, 7:57 am, Cliff <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 19:46:13 -0000, Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I think that doesn't really help your argument. Yes, he killed at
> >least 20 million by 1953, probably a lot more - but before WWII
> >started, 10 million seems unlikely and 20 million is far too high.
> >Most of his killing was during and after the war (forced relocations
> >were almost entirely during and after the war). Incidentally, you'll
> >find some people go up even as high as 60 million.
>
> >The West didn't want to believe that Stalin was doing any such thing,
> >though - although some of that was probably realpolitik (e.g. the
> >Katyn massacre).
>
> Stalin was just another crazed winger.

Of course anyone with an education knows that Lenin started the
pogrom.

 

[[email protected]]

On Nov 12, 8:08 am, Cliff <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 18:44:36 -0800, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >I do find it impressive that someone who thinks himself educated would think
> >of George Bush as stupid or uneducated. Even if he were are you so stupid
> >yourself to suppose that he doesn't have a bit better advice from experts
> >better than you?
>
> Well, he DID have all those warnings from Clinton's group .... or not ..
> it was his choice to ignore them & just tell lies & start wars.

Perhaps you'd like to quote what you think you know?

 

[[email protected]]

On Nov 12, 8:22 am, Cliff <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:01:55 -0800, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >"Gunner Asch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> >> Those who are ignorant of history..or give the actors a pass...are
> >> doomed to repeat it.
>
> >> Liberals for the most party..the doomer antiwar ones at the least,
> >> should be taken promptly out and hung before they condeme the entire
> >> Middle East to that which they condemed South East Asia, all for the
> >> sake of partisan power play.
>
> >The Liberals take the easy road - they deny that any of this happened. Then
> >they claim that Socialism in the guise of "Liberalism" is a good thing.
>
> Found those "WMDs" yet?

Tell us "Cliff" - how much time did the Iraqis have to send such
things over the border into neighboring countries?

 

[Bill C]

On Nov 12, 10:43 am, Cliff <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:41:00 -0800, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> >The Germans never located most of the Brit
> >radar sights because they had no clue they existed
>
> Actually, the early British electronic aircraft detection systems were
> not radars at all IIRC.
> --
> Cliff

They used listening stations for vectoring by sound, but that was much
less efficient.

They did have radar staions though:

http://tinyurl.com/2ckeds

Chain Home - a network of British early warning radars used to defend
Britain in the Battle Of Britain. It was an early and primitive radar,
but it was powerful and reliable, and was efficiently operated by
experienced operators, and therefore was a critical asset which
allowed the British Fighter Command to optimally engage incoming
German bomber formations. (range: 185 miles)

Bill C

 

[Bill C]

On Nov 12, 11:22 am, Cliff <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Nov 2007 16:01:55 -0800, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
> >"Gunner Asch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
>
> >> Those who are ignorant of history..or give the actors a pass...are
> >> doomed to repeat it.
>
> >> Liberals for the most party..the doomer antiwar ones at the least,
> >> should be taken promptly out and hung before they condeme the entire
> >> Middle East to that which they condemed South East Asia, all for the
> >> sake of partisan power play.
>
> >The Liberals take the easy road - they deny that any of this happened. Then
> >they claim that Socialism in the guise of "Liberalism" is a good thing.
>
> Found those "WMDs" yet?
> --
> Cliff

How're the Utopias you helped create working put in Vietnam, and Cuba?
They score real well in all the human rights, and freedoms reports,
right? That Mugabe guy who was your biggest hero in the 70s is raking
in the Nobel peace prizes, and Chavez is Mother Theresa, andthe worlds
greatest humantitarian rolled into one, right?
Pot, Kettle, Black, except it's damned near impossible to find a
'Liberal" willing to take any responsibility for the actions of those
they supported and empowered, and in many cases continue to support
despite the tortures, murders, and total lack of freedom to dissent.
The same people bashing Bush, who's a jackass, are cheering on Mugabe,
Castro, and Chavez. As long as the scum hate America, "Liberals" sill
cheer them on and support them no matter what they do.
Bill C

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
Cliff <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:04:54 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><[email protected]>,
> > Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> On 7 Nov, 01:04, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> > The victors write the books and there would've been 10s of millions
> >> > more alive to read them.
> >>
> >> This is of course true - but you probably need to remember that the
> >> Allies didn't believe that a significant number of Jews (and gays,
> >> etc...) were being killed until the second half of 1944 (when they
> >> found the concentration camps). Certainly no-one would have believed
> >> that the Holocaust would take place in the 1930s.
> >
> >Why not? Stalin had already killed 10-20 million.
>
> HUH?

huh what?

--
Michael Press

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>,
Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

> The same people bashing Bush, who's a jackass, are cheering on Mugabe,
> Castro, and Chavez.

Bill, no one is cheering Mugabe; no one has done so for many years. As for the
other two, most people are supportive of the Cuban and Venezuelan people but are much
less supportive of the leadership.

--
tanx,
Howard

Faberge eggs are elegant but I prefer Faberge bacon.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[Bill C]

On Nov 12, 7:07 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
>
>
>
>
>
> Cliff <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:04:54 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > >In article
> > ><[email protected]>,
> > > Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > >> On 7 Nov, 01:04, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> > The victors write the books and there would've been 10s of millions
> > >> > more alive to read them.
>
> > >> This is of course true - but you probably need to remember that the
> > >> Allies didn't believe that a significant number of Jews (and gays,
> > >> etc...) were being killed until the second half of 1944 (when they
> > >> found the concentration camps). Certainly no-one would have believed
> > >> that the Holocaust would take place in the 1930s.
>
> > >Why not? Stalin had already killed 10-20 million.
>
> > HUH?
>
> huh what?
>
> --
> Michael Press- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Cliffy isn't real rational. I'd doubt he believes that what Soviets
did was in any way bad, because they meant well and were trying to
better humanity. Sometimes things don't always go perfectly but when
it's in the name of "Socialist Justice" it's to be excused, and if
those people wouldn't object to what their great and wise, visionary
leaders were trying to do for them, then this wouldn't have happened.
It's all those scumbags faults for questioning the path of Socialism,
and since they were too stupid to know what was good for them, and
everyone else they needed to be dealt with anyway.
He's fully in favor of the Soviet policy of putting "Mentally sick
criminals" like human rights activists into mental health facilities
because it's obvious they have a disease isn't it, when they object to
the State's great plans.
Normally he's one of the few people I ignore. He's a lot like Gunner.
The only difference being whom they want to send off to the camps,
really. There's not a whole lot of freedom in either of their visions
for dissent.
Bill C

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 16:48:36 -0800, Bill C <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Nov 12, 7:07 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In article
>> <[email protected]>,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Cliff <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > On Wed, 07 Nov 2007 23:04:54 GMT, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > >In article
>> > ><[email protected]>,
>> > > Pete <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > >> On 7 Nov, 01:04, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > >> > The victors write the books and there would've been 10s of millions
>> > >> > more alive to read them.
>>
>> > >> This is of course true - but you probably need to remember that the
>> > >> Allies didn't believe that a significant number of Jews (and gays,
>> > >> etc...) were being killed until the second half of 1944 (when they
>> > >> found the concentration camps). Certainly no-one would have believed
>> > >> that the Holocaust would take place in the 1930s.
>>
>> > >Why not? Stalin had already killed 10-20 million.
>>
>> > HUH?
>>
>> huh what?
>>
>> --
>> Michael Press- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Cliffy isn't real rational. I'd doubt he believes that what Soviets
>did was in any way bad, because they meant well and were trying to
>better humanity. Sometimes things don't always go perfectly but when
>it's in the name of "Socialist Justice" it's to be excused, and if
>those people wouldn't object to what their great and wise, visionary
>leaders were trying to do for them, then this wouldn't have happened.
>It's all those scumbags faults for questioning the path of Socialism,
>and since they were too stupid to know what was good for them, and
>everyone else they needed to be dealt with anyway.
> He's fully in favor of the Soviet policy of putting "Mentally sick
>criminals" like human rights activists into mental health facilities
>because it's obvious they have a disease isn't it, when they object to
>the State's great plans.
> Normally he's one of the few people I ignore. He's a lot like Gunner.
>The only difference being whom they want to send off to the camps,
>really. There's not a whole lot of freedom in either of their visions
>for dissent.
> Bill C

How so? Libs can and do spew any and everything. Its their right to
do so.

I heartily support their speaking out! Better they speak out so we
can see what their agendas are, rather than plotting behind closed
doors.

However......

Its when they start ACTING on their agendas..that they should be hung
from the neck until dead dead dead. Least..those that run against the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights...which frankly...is most of their
agendas.

Gunner

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Cliff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:41:00 -0800, Bill C <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>The Germans never located most of the Brit
>>radar sights because they had no clue they existed
>
> Actually, the early British electronic aircraft detection systems were
> not radars at all IIRC.

You seem to recall a whole lot incorrectly. But then, Liberals generally do.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> How're the Utopias you helped create working put in Vietnam, and Cuba?
> They score real well in all the human rights, and freedoms reports,
> right? That Mugabe guy who was your biggest hero in the 70s is raking
> in the Nobel peace prizes, and Chavez is Mother Theresa, andthe worlds
> greatest humantitarian rolled into one, right?
> Pot, Kettle, Black, except it's damned near impossible to find a
> 'Liberal" willing to take any responsibility for the actions of those
> they supported and empowered, and in many cases continue to support
> despite the tortures, murders, and total lack of freedom to dissent.
> The same people bashing Bush, who's a jackass, are cheering on Mugabe,
> Castro, and Chavez. As long as the scum hate America, "Liberals" sill
> cheer them on and support them no matter what they do.

Ain't it funny how ALL of the great socialist leaders that the Liberals have
supported have spent so much time murdering their populations? And when they
aren't murdering them they're removing as much free will from their
countrymen as possible.

Just the sort of thing Kveck, Legate, Cliff and a couple of mouthy others
would LOVE to do here.

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>,
Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Nov 12, 7:09 pm, Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > The same people bashing Bush, who's a jackass, are cheering on Mugabe,
> > > Castro, and Chavez.
> >
> > Bill, no one is cheering Mugabe; no one has done so for many years. As
> > for the other two, most people are supportive of the Cuban and Venezuelan people
> > but are much less supportive of the leadership.

> Howard, they sure as hell are here, and out in the Hollywood/
> MoveOn.org area. How many of them have made trips to see those
> leaders, and pat them on the back, and do propaganda pieces for them.

Perhaps you can tell me how many have done that, Bill. Maybe I just haven't been
paying attention, but I don't see news of anyone of significance going to pat any of
those three on the back - particularly Mugabe. Everyone knows he's merrily destroying
that country. If MoveOn was doing that, I'd see it in their mailings, don't you
think? Yeah, Cindy Sheehan met Chavez - and????

After 9-11, a lot of people condemned Ward Churchill for saying stupid **** and
tried to say that he spoke for all of that great monolithic "left" when the reality
was that most (like 99.999999%) of us were saying, "Ward who???"

> I know you don't support those assholes, your a real liberal, as is
> just about everyone here, but you keep denying that there's a large
> group of "Liberals", comparable to the Neo-clowns out there. The
> reality contradicts that. Kucinich, Soros, Sean Penn, a bunch of the
> Hollywood politcal powerhouse women, etc...

Again, which ones, Bill? Sean Penn flew to Iraq just before the war but he
certainly wasn't praising Saddam. I'm just not real sure how these un-named people
who're supposed to be doing propaganda pieces for Chavez, Castro and Mugabe have
influenced anyone. By the way, you've frequently condemned George Soros but I don't
really know what bad things you believe he's done to this country.

I'll go into the rest of this later or in email (as it's related to the
coversation already going).

--
tanx,
Howard

Faberge eggs are elegant but I prefer Faberge bacon.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>, "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com>
wrote:

> "Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > How're the Utopias you helped create working put in Vietnam, and Cuba?
> > They score real well in all the human rights, and freedoms reports,
> > right? That Mugabe guy who was your biggest hero in the 70s is raking
> > in the Nobel peace prizes, and Chavez is Mother Theresa, andthe worlds
> > greatest humantitarian rolled into one, right?
> > Pot, Kettle, Black, except it's damned near impossible to find a
> > 'Liberal" willing to take any responsibility for the actions of those
> > they supported and empowered, and in many cases continue to support
> > despite the tortures, murders, and total lack of freedom to dissent.
> > The same people bashing Bush, who's a jackass, are cheering on Mugabe,
> > Castro, and Chavez. As long as the scum hate America, "Liberals" sill
> > cheer them on and support them no matter what they do.
>
> Ain't it funny how ALL of the great socialist leaders that the Liberals have
> supported have spent so much time murdering their populations? And when they
> aren't murdering them they're removing as much free will from their
> countrymen as possible.
>
> Just the sort of thing Kveck, Legate, Cliff and a couple of mouthy others
> would LOVE to do here.

Nice job of PROJECTION, Tom. And it's particularly interesting in light this quote
from you on Friday:
_____________________
"The fact is that people such as yourself who purposely spread the lie that
somehow Bush invented "weapons of mass destruction" should be jailed and
tried for treason towards the United States. Then after the firing squad
they ought to force your family to pay for your jail stay and the rope they
hang you with. Just like your great friends the Chinese."
_____________________
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.machines.cnc/msg/d9acc8cfa0dcd84d

By the way, how is a rope and hanging involved with a firing squad? Just trying to
make sure they finish the job?

--
tanx,
Howard

Safe when used as directed...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[Donald Munro]

Tom Kunich wrote:
> Just the sort of thing Kveck, Legate, Cliff and a couple of mouthy others
> would LOVE to do here.

Any proposals where the rbr liberal Guantanamo re-education camp is
going to be located ? And who gets to Heineken-Lite-board Kunich
first ?

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:59:12 -0700, Howard Kveck
<[email protected]> wrote:

>. If MoveOn was doing that, I'd see it in their mailings,


You actually admit to regularly receiving the Moveon.org mailings?

Really?

And your head hasnt imploded after reading, when they sucked out your
brains?

Fascinating

Gunner

 

[Gunner Asch]

On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:59:12 -0700, Howard Kveck
<[email protected]> wrote:

>. By the way, you've frequently condemned George Soros but I don't
>really know what bad things you believe he's done to this country.


Besides being the shadow money source for half the far left fringe
kook groups such as Moveon.org, Center for American Progress, Open
Society Institute, Democracy Alliance, Tides Foundation, and Media
Matters. and bagman for the Hildabeast?

The same Soros that suggested al Queda was right...?

The same Soros that intentionally tried to crash the Bank of England
to line his own pockets?

The Popperite "open society" Soros?

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/HerbLondon/2007/03/30/the_influence_of_george_soros&Comments=true

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:37:51 -0800, Gunner Asch
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Soros that suggested al Queda was right...?

Right about what?