S
Sandy
Guest
Dans le message de
news:5611ea2a-7bf1-4669-b1d5-b0d3e76666a9@d61g2000hsa.googlegroups.com,
SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Nov 19, 7:40 am, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Dans le message
>> denews:c16ef82a-5253-4030-8ed5-e010e842c9cd@d61g2000hsa.googlegroups.com,
>> Bill C <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>>
>
>> OK, I have read and now wish to offer a personal perspective on
>> several
>> points.
>>
>> 1 - there is an irrational belief that illegal presence is laudable,
>> when
>> those who take the required, long, uncertain and costly steps to
>> enter
>> legally and obtain work or citizenship are not considered in the
>> equation.
>
> There is no inherent duty to obey The State. If it is in one's best
> interests to obey The State, then my advice is to do so. One's duty
> is to oneself. That includes accepting jobs where every afternoon is
> a training ride on the back of a certain Sonoma County taxpayer.
>
>> 2 - Immigration is not the only goal, and often is not an actual
>> goal, for
>> the undocumented. Employment is their objective, for the most part.
>
> Yes.
>
>> 3 - Employment at substandard rates indicates the typical consumer
>> interest
>> of obtaining quality for lowe price. Not from the workers'
>> viewpoint - from
>> the American consumers'.
>
> What the hell does "substandard" mean? Like you must mean, "lower
> than my personal /value judgments/ say it /ought/ to be, and I'm
> smarter than others, and I got the votes." Americans are different
> than anyone else? Why would any body trade anything if they did not
> think they would be better off than before? Just altruism? Well
> maybe some people find altruism to be satisfying along with 52" LCD
> screens.
>
>> 4 - The effects of illegal immigration is mostly on unskilled and
>> onerous
>> work. There are not a lot of illegals working on Wall Street or in
>> the
>> Silicon Valley unless they are hauling brooms and mops.
>
> Well that is the biggest story of immigration to the US, legal or
> illegal. Sure, there have been many skilled people too.
>
>> 5 - The invisible effect of non-immigration is the emigration of
>> jobs in
>> fabrication, manufacturing, reprocessing; I don't see an America
>> that wants
>> to continue to work on factory assembly lines. Everyone wants to be
>> a
>> manager. There are too many colleges selling too many irrational
>> dreams.
>
> I don't see that "America wants" or "does not want" any such a
> things. I think it is rather irrelevent, really. People may or may
> not seize the opportunities they actually manage to see. That
> opportunities arise is not something people can necessarily control,
> or say like: "I will have such and such opportunity!" and it suddenly
> comes into being by command.
>
> In my observation, I see that people want to survive, and do it as
> comfortably and pleasureably as possible. The upward want is
> inevitable, immigrant, subject, or citizen alike. The only question
> is what actually happens.
>
>> 6 - America is protectionist, period. No reason to think it
>> embraces world
>> trade that doesn't heavily favor American interests. Those
>> interests, in
>> practicality, do not represent the personal economic interests of
>> citizens,
>> but the financial and meta-financial interests of the largest
>> corporations.
>> No, this is not a diatribe against corporate interests, just a
>> reminder of
>> where the influence is in creating both policy and law.
>
> Well you know how it goes. Whatever the flaws and capture of
> government that exist, the solution is always more government, because
> we know, don't we, that the bigger government will always be more
> immune to capture than smaller government. Always make government
> *more powerful*, that way it has more gifts to give.
>
> But you fail to mention that the basic nature and structure of
> government is that it itself grows in power and income. No intention
> is necessary for this to happen. Government benefits government
> first.
>
> "The solution to bad government, is always more government." --
> Statist Playbook
>
> "The solution to big government, is always bigger government." --
> Statist Playbook
>
> "The solution to a small government, is always a bigger government."
> -- Statist Playbook
>
> "The solution to government failure, is always bigger government
> failure." -- Statist Playbook
>
> "The solution to government failure in regulating business and trade,
> is bigger and better plans for the government to regulate business and
> trade." -- Statist Playbook
>
>> 7 - As to any worker, immigrant or not, legal or not, employers seek
>> to
>> reduce cost and increase profitability by paying the least possible
>> for
>> labor. That's the system that is applauded, so long as it favors
>> distributed growth. When it favors corporate profit, the obvious
>> solution
>> is a wholesale replacement of government, ...
>
> Let's just put "abolishment" in there instead of "replacement." There
> is no need to replace the old problem with a new one, which is the
> same as the old. The experiment of government has been tinkered with
> long enough. It is a failed doctrine. Just let it die.
>
>> but since all politics is local,
>> that is as likely as butter being a cure for high cholesterol levels.
>
> If more of the politics were actually local, it would probably be a
> better state of affairs. If you don't like the local jurisdiction,
> the cost of exit is low. If you don't like the nation, the costs of
> exit are very high.
>
>> The ONLY political agenda or ideology
>> is getting elected and RE-elected.
>
> For politicians, yes. All life is politics, which is to say there is
> power balance to deal with in pretty much every relationship. It is a
> basic fact of being a social creature.
>
>> 8 - The expense of inspecting and enforcing illegal labor is
>> enormous. Not
>> just the issue of illegal immigrants, but the results of typical
>> black-market labor. Like the local mechanic who charges a little
>> less and
>> takes cash payments. Like the people on eBay who make a living
>> there, yet
>> either don't report income, or classify it as hobby income.
>
> Anyone who manages to not hand over their assets to The State is a
> Freedom Fighter. Applaude them.
>
> I hope Jeter wins, just on principle.
> http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-yankees-jeter-taxes&prov=ap&type=lgns
>
>> 9 - Truly trade-union influences are always susceptible to
>> cut-throat,
>> cut-rate non union competition. Low price is hard to reject.
>
> There is no problem there, so why did you write it?
>
>> Illegal immigration is a problem only when the worst labor, industry,
>> capital and taxation systems direct money away from personal incomes
>> of
>> individuals on the broad scale.
>
> "Broad scale" is usually just a code phrase for commie-dom
> redistributionist law. Other than that, I think I agree. There is no
> problem of immigration if the legitimate owners of property invite
> them there. There is no other legitimate criteria.
>
>> Illegal immigrants allow lots of people to
>> continue to enjoy the pleasures of daily life at lower cost, and
>> today's
>> enjoyment is considered more important to realize than the building
>> of a
>> foundation for a successful futre economy.
>
> All people who would "construct an economy" are cranks. The "economy"
> needs a construction plan in the same way a robin needs blueprints to
> build their nest. The "economy" is generated via spontaneous order.
> It does not exist due to the design of Man. Life has its own /
> purpose/: itself. That does not mean it was "designed." /Purpose/ is
> not inextricably linked to /design/. In this matter it is decidely
> not.
>
> "Liberty is the Mother, not the daughter, of order." -- Proudhon
>
>> End of rant, for today.
>> --
>> Sandy
>> -
>> Darwinism, born in ideological struggle, has never escaped from an
>> intimate
>> reciprocal relationship with worldviews exported from and imported
>> into the
>> science. No one challenges the claim that evolutionary theory has
>> had a wide
>> effect on social theory. It is a cliché of cultural history that the
>> explanation of evolution by natural selection served as an
>> ideological
>> justification for laissez-faire capitalism and the colonial
>> domination of
>> the lesser breeds without the law
>>
>> - Richard Lewontin
>
> Lewontin thought there were "lesser breeds?" What a racist asswipe.
>
> Social Darwinism is well dead, except in the minds of cranks. No one
> pays any attention to them anyway. Get over it.
I have to let this one go unedited to put a big flag on you as a non
contributor to the exchange of ideas. It needs to be ad hominem, as you
would just as easily and moronically post your little snippets of argument
had you replied to pictures of pretty flowers. If you should ever decide to
write something serious, notwithstanding my overwhelming belief that it
would occur just after the team of monkeys had created the First Folio
contents intact in calligraphy, a small reference to liguistic tools, such
as dictionaries, could help you to grasp things like common meanings used
for communication. As it stands (falls flat, more likely), you have
succeeded in migrating electrons, no more. I am obliged to read tedious
blather due to my profession. I read your scrivenings with a reasonable
belief that by the end, I would see a smiley and a note "Just kidding". I
will get over it. "It" being the appearance of your name as author of any
other article ever submitted anywhere in this galaxy - I beg you to keep the
same identity. Please, feel free to resume autopilot. I am already over
it, aaaaaaaah!
--
Sandy
--
Il n'est aucune sorte de sensation qui soit plus vive
que celle de la douleur ; ses impressions sont sûres,
elles ne trompent point comme celles du plaisir.
- de Sade.
news:5611ea2a-7bf1-4669-b1d5-b0d3e76666a9@d61g2000hsa.googlegroups.com,
SLAVE of THE STATE <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> On Nov 19, 7:40 am, "Sandy" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Dans le message
>> denews:c16ef82a-5253-4030-8ed5-e010e842c9cd@d61g2000hsa.googlegroups.com,
>> Bill C <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
>>
>
>> OK, I have read and now wish to offer a personal perspective on
>> several
>> points.
>>
>> 1 - there is an irrational belief that illegal presence is laudable,
>> when
>> those who take the required, long, uncertain and costly steps to
>> enter
>> legally and obtain work or citizenship are not considered in the
>> equation.
>
> There is no inherent duty to obey The State. If it is in one's best
> interests to obey The State, then my advice is to do so. One's duty
> is to oneself. That includes accepting jobs where every afternoon is
> a training ride on the back of a certain Sonoma County taxpayer.
>
>> 2 - Immigration is not the only goal, and often is not an actual
>> goal, for
>> the undocumented. Employment is their objective, for the most part.
>
> Yes.
>
>> 3 - Employment at substandard rates indicates the typical consumer
>> interest
>> of obtaining quality for lowe price. Not from the workers'
>> viewpoint - from
>> the American consumers'.
>
> What the hell does "substandard" mean? Like you must mean, "lower
> than my personal /value judgments/ say it /ought/ to be, and I'm
> smarter than others, and I got the votes." Americans are different
> than anyone else? Why would any body trade anything if they did not
> think they would be better off than before? Just altruism? Well
> maybe some people find altruism to be satisfying along with 52" LCD
> screens.
>
>> 4 - The effects of illegal immigration is mostly on unskilled and
>> onerous
>> work. There are not a lot of illegals working on Wall Street or in
>> the
>> Silicon Valley unless they are hauling brooms and mops.
>
> Well that is the biggest story of immigration to the US, legal or
> illegal. Sure, there have been many skilled people too.
>
>> 5 - The invisible effect of non-immigration is the emigration of
>> jobs in
>> fabrication, manufacturing, reprocessing; I don't see an America
>> that wants
>> to continue to work on factory assembly lines. Everyone wants to be
>> a
>> manager. There are too many colleges selling too many irrational
>> dreams.
>
> I don't see that "America wants" or "does not want" any such a
> things. I think it is rather irrelevent, really. People may or may
> not seize the opportunities they actually manage to see. That
> opportunities arise is not something people can necessarily control,
> or say like: "I will have such and such opportunity!" and it suddenly
> comes into being by command.
>
> In my observation, I see that people want to survive, and do it as
> comfortably and pleasureably as possible. The upward want is
> inevitable, immigrant, subject, or citizen alike. The only question
> is what actually happens.
>
>> 6 - America is protectionist, period. No reason to think it
>> embraces world
>> trade that doesn't heavily favor American interests. Those
>> interests, in
>> practicality, do not represent the personal economic interests of
>> citizens,
>> but the financial and meta-financial interests of the largest
>> corporations.
>> No, this is not a diatribe against corporate interests, just a
>> reminder of
>> where the influence is in creating both policy and law.
>
> Well you know how it goes. Whatever the flaws and capture of
> government that exist, the solution is always more government, because
> we know, don't we, that the bigger government will always be more
> immune to capture than smaller government. Always make government
> *more powerful*, that way it has more gifts to give.
>
> But you fail to mention that the basic nature and structure of
> government is that it itself grows in power and income. No intention
> is necessary for this to happen. Government benefits government
> first.
>
> "The solution to bad government, is always more government." --
> Statist Playbook
>
> "The solution to big government, is always bigger government." --
> Statist Playbook
>
> "The solution to a small government, is always a bigger government."
> -- Statist Playbook
>
> "The solution to government failure, is always bigger government
> failure." -- Statist Playbook
>
> "The solution to government failure in regulating business and trade,
> is bigger and better plans for the government to regulate business and
> trade." -- Statist Playbook
>
>> 7 - As to any worker, immigrant or not, legal or not, employers seek
>> to
>> reduce cost and increase profitability by paying the least possible
>> for
>> labor. That's the system that is applauded, so long as it favors
>> distributed growth. When it favors corporate profit, the obvious
>> solution
>> is a wholesale replacement of government, ...
>
> Let's just put "abolishment" in there instead of "replacement." There
> is no need to replace the old problem with a new one, which is the
> same as the old. The experiment of government has been tinkered with
> long enough. It is a failed doctrine. Just let it die.
>
>> but since all politics is local,
>> that is as likely as butter being a cure for high cholesterol levels.
>
> If more of the politics were actually local, it would probably be a
> better state of affairs. If you don't like the local jurisdiction,
> the cost of exit is low. If you don't like the nation, the costs of
> exit are very high.
>
>> The ONLY political agenda or ideology
>> is getting elected and RE-elected.
>
> For politicians, yes. All life is politics, which is to say there is
> power balance to deal with in pretty much every relationship. It is a
> basic fact of being a social creature.
>
>> 8 - The expense of inspecting and enforcing illegal labor is
>> enormous. Not
>> just the issue of illegal immigrants, but the results of typical
>> black-market labor. Like the local mechanic who charges a little
>> less and
>> takes cash payments. Like the people on eBay who make a living
>> there, yet
>> either don't report income, or classify it as hobby income.
>
> Anyone who manages to not hand over their assets to The State is a
> Freedom Fighter. Applaude them.
>
> I hope Jeter wins, just on principle.
> http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-yankees-jeter-taxes&prov=ap&type=lgns
>
>> 9 - Truly trade-union influences are always susceptible to
>> cut-throat,
>> cut-rate non union competition. Low price is hard to reject.
>
> There is no problem there, so why did you write it?
>
>> Illegal immigration is a problem only when the worst labor, industry,
>> capital and taxation systems direct money away from personal incomes
>> of
>> individuals on the broad scale.
>
> "Broad scale" is usually just a code phrase for commie-dom
> redistributionist law. Other than that, I think I agree. There is no
> problem of immigration if the legitimate owners of property invite
> them there. There is no other legitimate criteria.
>
>> Illegal immigrants allow lots of people to
>> continue to enjoy the pleasures of daily life at lower cost, and
>> today's
>> enjoyment is considered more important to realize than the building
>> of a
>> foundation for a successful futre economy.
>
> All people who would "construct an economy" are cranks. The "economy"
> needs a construction plan in the same way a robin needs blueprints to
> build their nest. The "economy" is generated via spontaneous order.
> It does not exist due to the design of Man. Life has its own /
> purpose/: itself. That does not mean it was "designed." /Purpose/ is
> not inextricably linked to /design/. In this matter it is decidely
> not.
>
> "Liberty is the Mother, not the daughter, of order." -- Proudhon
>
>> End of rant, for today.
>> --
>> Sandy
>> -
>> Darwinism, born in ideological struggle, has never escaped from an
>> intimate
>> reciprocal relationship with worldviews exported from and imported
>> into the
>> science. No one challenges the claim that evolutionary theory has
>> had a wide
>> effect on social theory. It is a cliché of cultural history that the
>> explanation of evolution by natural selection served as an
>> ideological
>> justification for laissez-faire capitalism and the colonial
>> domination of
>> the lesser breeds without the law
>>
>> - Richard Lewontin
>
> Lewontin thought there were "lesser breeds?" What a racist asswipe.
>
> Social Darwinism is well dead, except in the minds of cranks. No one
> pays any attention to them anyway. Get over it.
I have to let this one go unedited to put a big flag on you as a non
contributor to the exchange of ideas. It needs to be ad hominem, as you
would just as easily and moronically post your little snippets of argument
had you replied to pictures of pretty flowers. If you should ever decide to
write something serious, notwithstanding my overwhelming belief that it
would occur just after the team of monkeys had created the First Folio
contents intact in calligraphy, a small reference to liguistic tools, such
as dictionaries, could help you to grasp things like common meanings used
for communication. As it stands (falls flat, more likely), you have
succeeded in migrating electrons, no more. I am obliged to read tedious
blather due to my profession. I read your scrivenings with a reasonable
belief that by the end, I would see a smiley and a note "Just kidding". I
will get over it. "It" being the appearance of your name as author of any
other article ever submitted anywhere in this galaxy - I beg you to keep the
same identity. Please, feel free to resume autopilot. I am already over
it, aaaaaaaah!
--
Sandy
--
Il n'est aucune sorte de sensation qui soit plus vive
que celle de la douleur ; ses impressions sont sûres,
elles ne trompent point comme celles du plaisir.
- de Sade.