OTish: Congestion charging petition



Nigel Randell said the following on 12/02/2007 22:49:

> We already have pay as you go motoring - fuel duty. If motoring is to be
> made more expensive (I think that's inevitable), then why on earth not
> collect the extra dosh through a system that's already in place and working
> well rather than relying on a massive new infrastructure?


Which is exactly what I and many others said ages ago. That is too
simple a concept for government (any government)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
From today's Times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article1375404.ece



"The care of patients on the NHS risks being compromised by the Government's
flawed implementation of a multi-billion-pound computer system linking
doctors and hospitals, according to one of the project's senior executives.

A lack of vision and poor understanding of the sheer size of the task meant
that the IT overhaul "isn't working and isn't going to work", Andrew
Rollerson, an executive with Fujitsu, one of the system's providers, said. "

....

"What we are trying to do is run an enormous programme with the techniques
that we are absolutely familiar with for running small projects. And it isn't
working. And it isn't going to work," Mr Rollerson said. He added that there
was a danger that suppliers would be defeated by the gargantuan size of
their "risk-laden" task.

....

The programme - now in its fifth year - is running up to two years behind
schedule for the creation of a centralised medical records system for 50
million patients, as well as an online booking system for hospital
appointments, facilties for e-prescriptions, digitally stored X-ray images
and computer links between NHS organisations. The National Audit Office
predicted last year that the total cost of the project would be £12.4
billion, but said that suppliers would bear the brunt of costs for the
delays





And that is a realtively easy project in comparison.



pk
 
On 12 Feb, 21:30, Simon Dean <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
> > Simon Dean wrote:

>
> >> Yeah, presumably link this in with the sex offender register and you
> >> can go out and bash a few paedos in too? Who knows, maybe it could
> >> actually be used by the paedos to find out where kids are... you see,
> >> the technology is evil I tells ye... Muwahahaha..

>
> > Go and bother some other people, please. We're not interested in you.

>
> > A

>
> Good. Im not interested in you either!
>
> For mild mannered placid cyclists, you guys sure are antagonistic.
>
> I respond to a bunch of **** in a public forum about drivers and you
> have to moan? Should I invoke Godwin's Law?
>
> However Im not a troll, just a passionate driver, hopefully soon to be
> buying a bike, but as a liberal, I also have a passion for fairness and
> equality which is why I get angry at the amount of bull that's posted here.
>
> Maybe you can't handle that... Ok... Come on...
>
> <whip the driver here>
>
> </whip the driver here>
>
> Cya
> Simon


Cars are subsidised by the rest of society, including those who don't
driver. The subsidy is greatest for urban drivers. Fewer cars on the
roads would have enormous benefits - the £400 million a year that
congestion costs us, according to the CBI, for a start. CCTV in banks
is supported and of course bank robbers don't kill 3500 people a year
as drivers do.

And then there's the £400 million a year uninsured drivers cost the
rest of us, in Hackney 25% of RTA's are hit and runs because the cars
are unregistered. Road charging gets these menace drivers off the
road.

Making the roads safer and more expensive so that motorists pay closer
to what they should do is a step in the right direction.
 
spindrift wrote:
>
> And then there's the £400 million a year uninsured drivers cost the
> rest of us, in Hackney 25% of RTA's are hit and runs because the cars
> are unregistered. *Road charging gets these menace drivers off the road*.



how?



pk
 
spindrift wrote:
>
> Cars are subsidised by the rest of society, including those who don't
> driver.


Wrong, in the UK at least.

> The subsidy is greatest for urban drivers.


There is no subsidy, no wrong again.

> Fewer cars on the
> roads would have enormous benefits -


Can't wait to hear this...

> the £400 million a year that
> congestion costs us, according to the CBI, for a start.


LOL. That is because it deters cars from the city! If there were NO
cars, rather than the claimed reduction of 30%, that would cost business
£1330 Million!

> CCTV in banks
> is supported and of course bank robbers don't kill 3500 people a year
> as drivers do.


Which driver killed 3500 people last year? The total killed in all road
collisions last year was less than 3000, which largely comprised drivers
who killed themselves.

> And then there's the £400 million a year uninsured drivers cost the
> rest of us,


The rest of drivers yes, and that could be eliminated at the drop of a
hat if the will was there.

> in Hackney 25% of RTA's are hit and runs because the cars
> are unregistered.


Committed by criminals in cars then, not motorists. Why are they
unregistered? How can that fact be used to condemn motorists in
general? That too could be eliminated will little or no effort.

> Road charging gets these menace drivers off the
> road.


How? It is predicted that it will produce more - as the London CC has.

> Making the roads safer and more expensive so that motorists pay closer
> to what they should do is a step in the right direction.


If motorists were required to pay only their true cost who would then be
called upon to bail-out the treasury???

Go back to your myth factory and see what else you can produce.

--
Matt B
 
Nigel Randell wrote:
> We already have pay as you go motoring - fuel duty. If motoring is to be
> made more expensive (I think that's inevitable), then why on earth not
> collect the extra dosh through a system that's already in place and
> working well rather than relying on a massive new infrastructure?


Yup, this is what is stopping me signing the aforementioned petition.
Especially given the suggestion that fuel duty would actually drop once
road charging is in place.

Anthony
 
On 2007-02-13 08:45:36 +0000, "spindrift" <[email protected]> said:
> Cars are subsidised by the rest of society, including those who don't
> driver. The subsidy is greatest for urban drivers. Fewer cars on the
> roads would have enormous benefits - the £400 million a year that
> congestion costs us, according to the CBI, for a start. CCTV in banks
> is supported and of course bank robbers don't kill 3500 people a year
> as drivers do.
>
> And then there's the £400 million a year uninsured drivers cost the
> rest of us, in Hackney 25% of RTA's are hit and runs because the cars
> are unregistered. Road charging gets these menace drivers off the
> road.
>
> Making the roads safer and more expensive so that motorists pay closer
> to what they should do is a step in the right direction.


So you have got £800m a year costs to pay out of the £22.7bn* raised on
fuel duty alone? And motorists are not paying? I'm not exactly pro car
but I can see a problem in your argument.

*figures from 2005 as published in 2006 National Statistics, Economic Trends
report.
--
Three wheels good, two wheels ok

www.catrike.co.uk
 
On 13 Feb, 07:24, Tony B <[email protected]> wrote:
> Danny Colyer wrote:
> > Most of you will probably have heard the news about the No 10
> > anti-congestion charging petition reaching 1 million signatures:
> > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6353353.stm>

>
> I won't be signing up to that one, if only because it's a good starting
> point for Gordon's Brownshirts to use as a list for first up against the
> wall ;-) Resistance is useless!
>
> > What hasn't been so well publicised, and is worth knowing, is that there
> > is also a petition for those who like the idea of car tracking and road
> > pricing:
> > <http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/TRACK-CARS/>

>
> This one will also remain unsigned as, despite the worthiness of the
> petition creator's sentiments, the general routine tracking of
> individuals under any circumstances would be both technically impossible
> (well, incredibly difficult and hugely expensive anyway) and a huge
> intrusive injustice against our personal civil liberties. Why anyone
> would want to volunteer to be tracked by the state is frankly beyond me.
>
> Now, a petition to ration car miles, there's a thought...
>
> War is Peace,
>
> Tony B


The full cost of motoring is £20 billion per year more than the Road
Tax. Every car is subsidised to the tune of £1500 a year.

The hidden costs of motoring include: congestion (leading to business
delays), air pollution (leading to health problems such as asthma),
excessive noise, global warming, and the pain, su

http://www.bikeforall.net/content/bicycle_advocacy.php

Whitelegg (1992) calculated that if all the indirect costs associated
with car use were totalled the private car driver was being subsidised
by £20 billion pounds annually. In 1992 motor vehicle tax would have
had to be increased to over £1000 per vehicle per year if the costs of
private car use were to be met by car users themselves.

In the 8 years since this calculation was made these indirect costs
have risen substantially. For example, the cost of road traffic
related injury and deaths was estimated to be £5 billion in 1992.

By 2003 this had increased to £16.9 billion. In reality it is
cyclists who are subsidising motor vehicle use!


http://www.thebikezone.org.uk/thebikezone/campaigning/tax.html


Pollution-related admissions are estimated to cost the NHS between £17-
£60m each year.


http://www.corporatecitizen.nhs.uk/transport.html

£30.2 BN OVER 10 YEARS- INCREASE IN ROAD FUEL DUTY
Why needed: An increase road fuel duty by 3-5 % per year (keeping the
real price of motoring constant over the next 10 years) would reduce
congestion and air pollution, and slow the rise in carbon dioxide
emissions. It could raise up to £30.2 bn over 10 years, which should
be reinvested in sustainable transport.

Background:Following protests from lorry drivers and pressure from the
oil industry, the Government ended the fuel duty escalator in November
1999. Since then motoring costs have fallen by RPI -3% per annum. At
the same time carbon dioxide emissions have increased, traffic levels
rising and rail fares have gone up.

http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/press_releases/budget_2004_brown_must_go_12032004.html

The economic and individual costs of traffic congestion.

In 1993 The Confederation of British Industry calculated that the
annual cost to British industry of congestion was £15 billion pounds
per year and this has increased every year since then. Traffic
congestion is also one of the primary sources of stress in modern
society.

Although there is the widespread perception that private car use is a
net contributor to the National economy, Whitelegg (1992) calculated
that if all the indirect costs associated with car use are totalled
(for example, the costs of pollution, traffic injury and death and the
costs to the National Health Service arising from a sedentary car
bound lifestyle), the private car driver was being subsidised by £20
billion pounds annually. In 1992 motor vehicle tax would have had to
be increased to over £1000 per vehicle per year if the total costs of
private car use were to be met by car users themselves. In the 11
years since this calculation was made these indirect costs have risen
substantially. For example, the annual £5 billion cost of road traffic
related injury and deaths used by Whitelegg in 1992 had risen to
almost £11 billion per year by 2000.

2) The degradation of the environment due to pollution created by
motor vehicles.

No motor vehicle can be considered to be 'green'. Even lead-free
petrol releases hydrocarbon derived toxins into the atmosphere and the
particulates released by diesel engines are carriers of high-risk
carcinogens. In addition, the majority of car journeys are only a few
miles in length and for such journeys catalytic converters are
ineffective in reducing emission levels.

The British Medical Council estimated in 1998 that 22,000 individuals
die prematurely each year as a result of the pollution from car
exhausts. Vehicle exhaust levels also significantly affect children.
In many areas one third of children require treatment for asthma,
either directly as a result of exposure to traffic fumes or because
exposure has sensitised them to other factors.

3) The continued destruction of the countryside in an attempt to
accommodate the ever increasing amounts of traffic.

This occurs despite the fact that it is now recognised that it is
impossible to build ones' way out of congestion. Creating new roads
creates new opportunities to drive and may make existing journeys
easier. The overall outcome of this is to increase the net number of
vehicle journeys and a corresponding increase in congestion at those
parts of the network with limited capacity.

4) A continuation of the high rate of death and injury resulting from
motor vehicle crashes.

The death and injury toll from motor vehicle crashes is commonly
regarded as a normal part of life, due in part to the dispersal of
casualties. In addition to the personal impact of such crashes the
financial cost of injury and death incidents, as estimated by The
Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, had risen to
£10.9 billion per year by the year 2000.

5) Increasing dependency on the car is a key cause of an increasingly
sedentary lifestyle for many individuals. This has a wide range of
negative effects on the health of the individual.

Levels of obesity are increasing along with obesity related diseases
such as diabetes. The World Health Organisation has determined that
living a sedentary lifestyle increases the risk of heart disease,
diabetes and obesity by 50% with a wide range of other illnesses being
made significantly more likely, including some forms of cancer.

In 2001 the Scottish Cancer foundation found that regular exercise
could reduce bowel cancer by 50%. In 2002 researchers at the
University of Bristol reported that regular exercise could reduce the
chance of developing bowel cancer by between 40% and 50% and the
chance of developing breast cancer by 30%. These findings were further
supported by research from the German Cancer Research Centre in
Heidelberg (published in the American Journal of Epidemiology in 2003)
which showed that 3 hours of moderate cycling per week reduced the
risk of breast cancer by 34%. This report also suggested that cycling
might be an especially effective form of exercise with regards
increasing the individuals resistance to cancer.

Individuals also suffer from decreasing levels of fitness with a
negative effect on their life quality and feeling of well being. As a
consequence sedentary individuals are also more likely to suffer from
depression and mental health than those living a more active
lifestyle.

6) High levels of car use have also led to degradation in the quality
of life due to traffic levels, danger and noise.

Again this is particularly serious problem for children who spend
their lives in cars without being able enjoy the personal development
and health benefits previous generations gained from cycling and
walking. As is the case with crime, the fear of traffic has a negative
influence on many more individuals than those who actually become
victims.

In addition the development of the road infrastructure itself has also
had a significant adverse affect on quality of life and local
communities. Major roads schemes, evident in cities such as Leeds,
have severed links within communities and created areas of urban
blight. In such areas residents often have to live in close proximity
to networks of inner city motorways which individuals find alienating
and hostile.

8) An increasing dependence on car ownership has exacerbated levels of
social exclusion.

Those who choose not to drive or who cannot drive have become excluded
from many aspects of normal social life. Many facilities, from cinemas
to supermarkets have effectively become accessible only to car owners.
In part this is due to a high level of car use resulting in a reduced
demand for public transport, this in turn resulting in services being
cut, leaving the car free isolated. High levels of traffic also mean
that many individuals feel that cycling or even walking are not viable
options, even for short journeys. In addition, many facilities have
been developed that are hard to access without a car, for example out
of town shopping centres. Employers also frequently recruit from a
wide catchment area or require staff to have a car available for
'work' use.

It is also significant that those who suffer most from social
exclusion due to a lack of access to a private car are also those most
likely to experiences the negative impact resulting from the car use
of others. Children from the poorest backgrounds are five times as
likely to be killed by a car then those from the richest backgrounds
and poorer inner city areas often cut through with busy roads giving
suburban dwellers access to city centres but creating pollution and
danger for those who live in their vicinity.

All of the above factors mean that the car free are liable to suffer
increased levels of social exclusion. A recognition of this has led
(February 2003) to the publication of the Social Exclusion Unit's
Report 'Making the Connections: Final Report on Transport and Social
Exclusion.'

(Available at http://www.socialexclusionunit.gov.uk/published.htm )

This report lays out how 'accessibility planning' can be used to
identify where social exclusion is arising as a result of individuals
being unable to access jobs, learning, health care and leisure
facilities. It also shows how action may be taken to improve access by
'improving public transport, introducing more innovative travel
options, or changing the location or delivery of the services people
need.' This approach is central to many of the initatives examined
within this resource.

Additional information.

Further information on Cycling to Work is available on the DfT website
in the form of Traffic Advisory Leaflet 11/97: Cycling to Work. The
DfT site undergoes frequent redesigns which often makes it difficult
to find a given document but at the time of writing this TAL is
available at:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_504737.hcsp

Also relevant is TAL 12/99: Cycling for better health to be found at

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_roads/documents/page/dft_roads_504739.hcsp


Ibid.


Why should we carry on subsidising drivers? Why should they not pay
what they should? The Polluter Pays is ignored by motorists who
continue to have their lifestyle subsidised!
 
On 13 Feb, 09:22, "spindrift" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 13 Feb, 07:24, Tony B <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Danny Colyer wrote:
> > > Most of you will probably have heard the news about the No 10
> > > anti-congestion charging petition reaching 1 million signatures:
> > > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6353353.stm>

>
> > I won't be signing up to that one, if only because it's a good starting
> > point for Gordon's Brownshirts to use as a list for first up against the
> > wall ;-) Resistance is useless!

>
> > > What hasn't been so well publicised, and is worth knowing, is that there
> > > is also a petition for those who like the idea of car tracking and road
> > > pricing:
> > > <http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/TRACK-CARS/>

>
> > This one will also remain unsigned as, despite the worthiness of the
> > petition creator's sentiments, the general routine tracking of
> > individuals under any circumstances would be both technically impossible
> > (well, incredibly difficult and hugely expensive anyway) and a huge
> > intrusive injustice against our personal civil liberties. Why anyone
> > would want to volunteer to be tracked by the state is frankly beyond me.

>
> > Now, a petition to ration car miles, there's a thought...

>
> > War is Peace,

>
> > Tony B

>
> The full cost of motoring is £20 billion per year more than the Road
> Tax. Every car is subsidised to the tune of £1500 a year.
>
> The hidden costs of motoring include: congestion (leading to business
> delays), air pollution (leading to health problems such as asthma),
> excessive noise, global warming, and the pain, su
>
> http://www.bikeforall.net/content/bicycle_advocacy.php
>
> Whitelegg (1992) calculated that if all the indirect costs associated
> with car use were totalled the private car driver was being subsidised
> by £20 billion pounds annually. In 1992 motor vehicle tax would have
> had to be increased to over £1000 per vehicle per year if the costs of
> private car use were to be met by car users themselves.
>
> In the 8 years since this calculation was made these indirect costs
> have risen substantially. For example, the cost of road traffic
> related injury and deaths was estimated to be £5 billion in 1992.
>
> By 2003 this had increased to £16.9 billion. In reality it is
> cyclists who are subsidising motor vehicle use!
>
> http://www.thebikezone.org.uk/thebikezone/campaigning/tax.html
>
> Pollution-related admissions are estimated to cost the NHS between £17-
> £60m each year.
>
> http://www.corporatecitizen.nhs.uk/transport.html
>
> £30.2 BN OVER 10 YEARS- INCREASE IN ROAD FUEL DUTY
> Why needed: An increase road fuel duty by 3-5 % per year (keeping the
> real price of motoring constant over the next 10 years) would reduce
> congestion and air pollution, and slow the rise in carbon dioxide
> emissions. It could raise up to £30.2 bn over 10 years, which should
> be reinvested in sustainable transport.
>
> Background:Following protests from lorry drivers and pressure from the
> oil industry, the Government ended the fuel duty escalator in November
> 1999. Since then motoring costs have fallen by RPI -3% per annum. At
> the same time carbon dioxide emissions have increased, traffic levels
> rising and rail fares have gone up.
>
> http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/press_releases/budget_2004_brown_must_g...
>
> The economic and individual costs of traffic congestion.
>
> In 1993 The Confederation of British Industry calculated that the
> annual cost to British industry of congestion was £15 billion pounds
> per year and this has increased every year since then. Traffic
> congestion is also one of the primary sources of stress in modern
> society.
>
> Although there is the widespread perception that private car use is a
> net contributor to the National economy, Whitelegg (1992) calculated
> that if all the indirect costs associated with car use are totalled
> (for example, the costs of pollution, traffic injury and death and the
> costs to the National Health Service arising from a sedentary car
> bound lifestyle), the private car driver was being subsidised by £20
> billion pounds annually. In 1992 motor vehicle tax would have had to
> be increased to over £1000 per vehicle per year if the total costs of
> private car use were to be met by car users themselves. In the 11
> years since this calculation was made these indirect costs have risen
> substantially. For example, the annual £5 billion cost of road traffic
> related injury and deaths used by Whitelegg in 1992 had risen to
> almost £11 billion per year by 2000.
>
> 2) The degradation of the environment due to pollution created by
> motor vehicles.
>
> No motor vehicle can be considered to be 'green'. Even lead-free
> petrol releases hydrocarbon derived toxins into the atmosphere and the
> particulates released by diesel engines are carriers of high-risk
> carcinogens. In addition, the majority of car journeys are only a few
> miles in length and for such journeys catalytic converters are
> ineffective in reducing emission levels.
>
> The British Medical Council estimated in 1998 that 22,000 individuals
> die prematurely each year as a result of the pollution from car
> exhausts. Vehicle exhaust levels also significantly affect children.
> In many areas one third of children require treatment for asthma,
> either directly as a result of exposure to traffic fumes or because
> exposure has sensitised them to other factors.
>
> 3) The continued destruction of the countryside in an attempt to
> accommodate the ever increasing amounts of traffic.
>
> This occurs despite the fact that it is now recognised that it is
> impossible to build ones' way out of congestion. Creating new roads
> creates new opportunities to drive and may make existing journeys
> easier. The overall outcome of this is to increase the net number of
> vehicle journeys and a corresponding increase in congestion at those
> parts of the network with limited capacity.
>
> 4) A continuation of the high rate of death and injury resulting from
> motor vehicle crashes.
>
> The death and injury toll from motor vehicle crashes is commonly
> regarded as a normal part of life, due in part to the dispersal of
> casualties. In addition to the personal impact of such crashes the
> financial cost of injury and death incidents, as estimated by The
> Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, had risen to
> £10.9 billion per year by the year 2000.
>
> 5) Increasing dependency on the car is a key cause of an increasingly
> sedentary lifestyle for many individuals. This has a wide range of
> negative effects on the health of the individual.
>
> Levels of obesity are increasing along with obesity related diseases
> such as diabetes. The World Health Organisation has determined that
> living a sedentary lifestyle increases the risk of heart disease,
> diabetes and obesity by 50% with a wide range of other illnesses being
> made significantly more likely, including some forms of cancer.
>
> In 2001 the Scottish Cancer foundation found that regular exercise
> could reduce bowel cancer by 50%. In 2002 researchers at the
> University of Bristol reported that regular exercise could reduce the
> chance of developing bowel cancer by between 40% and 50% and the
> chance of developing breast cancer by 30%. These findings were further
> supported by research from the German Cancer Research Centre in
> Heidelberg (published in the American Journal of Epidemiology in 2003)
> which showed that 3 hours of moderate cycling per week reduced the
> risk of breast cancer by 34%. This report also suggested that cycling
> might be an especially effective form of exercise with regards
> increasing the individuals resistance to cancer.
>
> Individuals also suffer from decreasing levels of fitness with a
> negative effect on their life quality and feeling of well being. As a
> consequence sedentary individuals are also more likely to suffer from
> depression and mental health than those living a more active
> lifestyle.
>
> 6) High levels of car use have also led to degradation in the quality
> of life due to traffic levels, danger and noise.
>
> Again this is particularly serious problem for children who spend
> their lives in cars without being able enjoy the personal development
> and health benefits previous generations gained from cycling and
> walking. As is the case with crime, the fear of traffic has a negative
> influence on many more individuals than those who actually become
> victims.
>
> In addition the development of the road infrastructure itself has also
> had a significant adverse affect on quality of life and local
> communities. Major roads schemes, evident in cities such as Leeds,
> have severed links within communities and created areas of urban
> blight. In such areas residents often have to live in close proximity
> to networks of inner city motorways which individuals find alienating
> and hostile.
>
> 8) An increasing dependence on car ownership has exacerbated levels of
> social exclusion.
>
> Those who choose not to drive or who cannot drive have become excluded
> from many aspects of normal social life. Many facilities, from cinemas
> to supermarkets have effectively become accessible only to car owners.
> In part this is due to a high level of car use resulting in a reduced
> demand for public transport, this in turn resulting in services being
> cut, leaving the car free isolated. High levels of traffic also mean
> that many individuals feel that cycling or even walking are not viable
> options, even for short journeys. In addition, many facilities have
> been developed that are hard to access without a car, for example out
> of town shopping centres. Employers also frequently recruit from a
> wide catchment area or require staff to have a car available for
> 'work' use.
>
> It is also significant that those who suffer most from social
> exclusion due to a lack of access to a private car are also those most
> likely to experiences the negative impact resulting from the car use
> of others. Children from the poorest backgrounds are five times as
> likely to be killed by a car then those from the richest backgrounds
> and poorer inner city areas often cut through with busy roads giving
> suburban dwellers access to city centres but creating pollution and
> danger for those ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


I think the petition signatories are prats because the petition is
dishonest, misleading, and inspired by a single-issue lobby group.

A study by the Department for Transport found that most drivers would
pay less than they do now under a national system of road tolls.

Ministers have said that other road taxes, such as vehicle excise duty
or fuel duty, will be reduced if motorists are required to pay by the
mile for road use.

The technology may also cost the motorist nothing because the DfT
hopes to "piggyback" on technology being fitted to many modern cars,
such
as satellite navigation systems.

The Government has never suggested that the charging system would be
used to monitor the speed of vehicles.

A DfT spokesman said: "This e-mail is misleading and factually
incorrect. No decisions have been made on many of the things it
claims
are government policy."
 
Anthony Jones said the following on 13/02/2007 09:14:

> Especially given the suggestion that fuel duty would actually drop once
> road charging is in place.


I wonder if anyone is putting bets on whether that will actually happen :)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
spindrift said the following on 13/02/2007 08:45:

> Road charging gets these menace drivers off the
> road.


How? People that currently drive without road tax, MOT, insurance or
license will simply add "black box" to that list.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
 
spindrift wrote:
>
> The full cost of motoring is £20 billion per year more than the Road
> Tax. Every car is subsidised to the tune of £1500 a year.
>
> The hidden costs of motoring include:
> congestion (leading to business
> delays),


That is a cost suffered by motorists, not caused by them. They should
be compensated by that much each year because of the lack of provision
of an adequate infrastructure.

> air pollution (leading to health problems such as asthma),


That is more than covered by fuel duty - but the money is wasted.

> excessive noise,


Cars are quieter than planes, trains, or buses, so noise levels are less
than they would be otherwise.

> global warming,


Theoretically covered by fuel duty, five times over according to a
recent report. The fact the money is not used for research and action
into that area can hardly be blamed on the motorist who is paying
handsomely.

> and the pain, su


???

> Why should we carry on subsidising drivers?


You don't, drivers actually subsidise the UK economy. With no cars tax
would have to rise substantially elsewhere. The motorist is the golden egg.

> Why should they not pay
> what they should?


Exactly. The reason is politics. The Government would have great
difficulties reducing motoring taxation to closer to motoring costs
because of the huge increases they would have to apply elsewhere.

> The Polluter Pays is ignored by motorists who
> continue to have their lifestyle subsidised!


Wrong. Motorists pay well /over/ the cost of their modest contribution
to pollution. It is electricity and gas users who are getting a free
ride - they pay NO fuel duty. According to Government figures the
domestic use of electricity and gas produces *2.4 times* the CO2
emissions of cars and taxis.

--
Matt B
 
On 12 Feb 2007 14:08:13 -0800, "naked_draughtsman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Feb 12, 9:01 pm, "naked_draughtsman"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>> There were 443 signatures when I clicked that link. After I signed
>> and confirmed and refreshed a few times there were still 443
>> signatures!
>> Hopefully it's just taking time to update....

>
>The petition is calling for road charging to be used as a way to curb
>car numbers on the roads and if everyone believes that pay as you go
>motoring will be used to track their every move then uncle Tony's
>grand plan is going to achieve this! I'm sure that MI5 could track
>people's car usage today if they wanted to, but they're not going to
>tell everyone (maybe that's the reason for speed cameras popping up
>everywhere) <g>
>
>As someone who walks or cycles virtually everywhere (even when living
>somewhere with little public transport) I would love to see less cars
>on the roads.
>
>As for all the joke signatures - there were lots of them on the 'scrap
>the road charging' petition as well.
>
>peter



More on the "compulsary" helmet petition...
 
spindrift wrote:
>
> I think the petition signatories are prats because the petition is
> dishonest, misleading, and inspired by a single-issue lobby group.


You wouldn't /dream/ of publishing anything that was dishonest,
misleading, or inspired by a single-issue lobby group... Ah, hang-on a
minute, let me read your previous post again.

> A study by the Department for Transport found that most drivers would
> pay less than they do now under a national system of road tolls.


That wouldn't be bribery would it, to help shoe-horn in another
mass-surveillance system???

> Ministers have said that other road taxes, such as vehicle excise duty
> or fuel duty, will be reduced if motorists are required to pay by the
> mile for road use.


It appears they would say anything if it helps them to slip in another
mass-surveillance system.

> The technology may also cost the motorist nothing because the DfT
> hopes to "piggyback" on technology being fitted to many modern cars,
> such
> as satellite navigation systems.


Another clever spin, don't you think.

> The Government has never suggested that the charging system would be
> used to monitor the speed of vehicles.


Why would they - that would damage their case. Have they said the state
won't have access to the surveillance intelligence collected by it? You
see what I mean then.

> A DfT spokesman said: "This e-mail is misleading and factually
> incorrect. No decisions have been made on many of the things it
> claims
> are government policy."


Yes, we're all familiar with that desperate ploy for attempting to
rescue a lost argument. Did they also say that claiming it was to
reduce congestion, rather than admitting it was to raise revenue and
gather surveillance data was misleading and factually incorrect?

--
Matt B
 
On 13 Feb, 09:25, "spindrift" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 13 Feb, 09:22, "spindrift" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 13 Feb, 07:24, Tony B <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > Danny Colyer wrote:
> > > > Most of you will probably have heard the news about the No 10
> > > > anti-congestion charging petition reaching 1 million signatures:
> > > > <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6353353.stm>

>
> > > I won't be signing up to that one, if only because it's a good starting
> > > point for Gordon's Brownshirts to use as a list for first up against the
> > > wall ;-) Resistance is useless!

>
> > > > What hasn't been so well publicised, and is worth knowing, is that there
> > > > is also a petition for those who like the idea of car tracking and road
> > > > pricing:
> > > > <http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/TRACK-CARS/>

>
> > > This one will also remain unsigned as, despite the worthiness of the
> > > petition creator's sentiments, the general routine tracking of
> > > individuals under any circumstances would be both technically impossible
> > > (well, incredibly difficult and hugely expensive anyway) and a huge
> > > intrusive injustice against our personal civil liberties. Why anyone
> > > would want to volunteer to be tracked by the state is frankly beyond me.

>
> > > Now, a petition to ration car miles, there's a thought...

>
> > > War is Peace,

>
> > > Tony B

>
> > The full cost of motoring is £20 billion per year more than the Road
> > Tax. Every car is subsidised to the tune of £1500 a year.

>
> > The hidden costs of motoring include: congestion (leading to business
> > delays), air pollution (leading to health problems such as asthma),
> > excessive noise, global warming, and the pain, su

>
> >http://www.bikeforall.net/content/bicycle_advocacy.php

>
> > Whitelegg (1992) calculated that if all the indirect costs associated
> > with car use were totalled the private car driver was being subsidised
> > by £20 billion pounds annually. In 1992 motor vehicle tax would have
> > had to be increased to over £1000 per vehicle per year if the costs of
> > private car use were to be met by car users themselves.

>
> > In the 8 years since this calculation was made these indirect costs
> > have risen substantially. For example, the cost of road traffic
> > related injury and deaths was estimated to be £5 billion in 1992.

>
> > By 2003 this had increased to £16.9 billion. In reality it is
> > cyclists who are subsidising motor vehicle use!

>
> >http://www.thebikezone.org.uk/thebikezone/campaigning/tax.html

>
> > Pollution-related admissions are estimated to cost the NHS between £17-
> > £60m each year.

>
> >http://www.corporatecitizen.nhs.uk/transport.html

>
> > £30.2 BN OVER 10 YEARS- INCREASE IN ROAD FUEL DUTY
> > Why needed: An increase road fuel duty by 3-5 % per year (keeping the
> > real price of motoring constant over the next 10 years) would reduce
> > congestion and air pollution, and slow the rise in carbon dioxide
> > emissions. It could raise up to £30.2 bn over 10 years, which should
> > be reinvested in sustainable transport.

>
> > Background:Following protests from lorry drivers and pressure from the
> > oil industry, the Government ended the fuel duty escalator in November
> > 1999. Since then motoring costs have fallen by RPI -3% per annum. At
> > the same time carbon dioxide emissions have increased, traffic levels
> > rising and rail fares have gone up.

>
> >http://www.foe.co.uk/resource/press_releases/budget_2004_brown_must_g...

>
> > The economic and individual costs of traffic congestion.

>
> > In 1993 The Confederation of British Industry calculated that the
> > annual cost to British industry of congestion was £15 billion pounds
> > per year and this has increased every year since then. Traffic
> > congestion is also one of the primary sources of stress in modern
> > society.

>
> > Although there is the widespread perception that private car use is a
> > net contributor to the National economy, Whitelegg (1992) calculated
> > that if all the indirect costs associated with car use are totalled
> > (for example, the costs of pollution, traffic injury and death and the
> > costs to the National Health Service arising from a sedentary car
> > bound lifestyle), the private car driver was being subsidised by £20
> > billion pounds annually. In 1992 motor vehicle tax would have had to
> > be increased to over £1000 per vehicle per year if the total costs of
> > private car use were to be met by car users themselves. In the 11
> > years since this calculation was made these indirect costs have risen
> > substantially. For example, the annual £5 billion cost of road traffic
> > related injury and deaths used by Whitelegg in 1992 had risen to
> > almost £11 billion per year by 2000.

>
> > 2) The degradation of the environment due to pollution created by
> > motor vehicles.

>
> > No motor vehicle can be considered to be 'green'. Even lead-free
> > petrol releases hydrocarbon derived toxins into the atmosphere and the
> > particulates released by diesel engines are carriers of high-risk
> > carcinogens. In addition, the majority of car journeys are only a few
> > miles in length and for such journeys catalytic converters are
> > ineffective in reducing emission levels.

>
> > The British Medical Council estimated in 1998 that 22,000 individuals
> > die prematurely each year as a result of the pollution from car
> > exhausts. Vehicle exhaust levels also significantly affect children.
> > In many areas one third of children require treatment for asthma,
> > either directly as a result of exposure to traffic fumes or because
> > exposure has sensitised them to other factors.

>
> > 3) The continued destruction of the countryside in an attempt to
> > accommodate the ever increasing amounts of traffic.

>
> > This occurs despite the fact that it is now recognised that it is
> > impossible to build ones' way out of congestion. Creating new roads
> > creates new opportunities to drive and may make existing journeys
> > easier. The overall outcome of this is to increase the net number of
> > vehicle journeys and a corresponding increase in congestion at those
> > parts of the network with limited capacity.

>
> > 4) A continuation of the high rate of death and injury resulting from
> > motor vehicle crashes.

>
> > The death and injury toll from motor vehicle crashes is commonly
> > regarded as a normal part of life, due in part to the dispersal of
> > casualties. In addition to the personal impact of such crashes the
> > financial cost of injury and death incidents, as estimated by The
> > Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, had risen to
> > £10.9 billion per year by the year 2000.

>
> > 5) Increasing dependency on the car is a key cause of an increasingly
> > sedentary lifestyle for many individuals. This has a wide range of
> > negative effects on the health of the individual.

>
> > Levels of obesity are increasing along with obesity related diseases
> > such as diabetes. The World Health Organisation has determined that
> > living a sedentary lifestyle increases the risk of heart disease,
> > diabetes and obesity by 50% with a wide range of other illnesses being
> > made significantly more likely, including some forms of cancer.

>
> > In 2001 the Scottish Cancer foundation found that regular exercise
> > could reduce bowel cancer by 50%. In 2002 researchers at the
> > University of Bristol reported that regular exercise could reduce the
> > chance of developing bowel cancer by between 40% and 50% and the
> > chance of developing breast cancer by 30%. These findings were further
> > supported by research from the German Cancer Research Centre in
> > Heidelberg (published in the American Journal of Epidemiology in 2003)
> > which showed that 3 hours of moderate cycling per week reduced the
> > risk of breast cancer by 34%. This report also suggested that cycling
> > might be an especially effective form of exercise with regards
> > increasing the individuals resistance to cancer.

>
> > Individuals also suffer from decreasing levels of fitness with a
> > negative effect on their life quality and feeling of well being. As a
> > consequence sedentary individuals are also more likely to suffer from
> > depression and mental health than those living a more active
> > lifestyle.

>
> > 6) High levels of car use have also led to degradation in the quality
> > of life due to traffic levels, danger and noise.

>
> > Again this is particularly serious problem for children who spend
> > their lives in cars without being able enjoy the personal development
> > and health benefits previous generations gained from cycling and
> > walking. As is the case with crime, the fear of traffic has a negative
> > influence on many more individuals than those who actually become
> > victims.

>
> > In addition the development of the road infrastructure itself has also
> > had a significant adverse affect on quality of life and local
> > communities. Major roads schemes, evident in cities such as Leeds,
> > have severed links within communities and created areas of urban
> > blight. In such areas residents often have to live in close proximity
> > to networks of inner city motorways which individuals find alienating
> > and hostile.

>
> > 8) An increasing dependence on car ownership has exacerbated levels of
> > social exclusion.

>
> > Those who choose not to drive or who cannot drive have become excluded
> > from many aspects of normal social life. Many facilities, from cinemas
> > to supermarkets have effectively become accessible only to car owners.
> > In part this is due to a high level of car use resulting in a reduced
> > demand for public transport, this in turn resulting in services being
> > cut, leaving the car free isolated. High levels of traffic also mean
> > that many individuals feel that cycling or even walking are not viable
> > options, even for short journeys. In addition, many facilities have
> > been developed that are hard to access without a car, for example out
> > of town shopping centres. Employers also frequently recruit from a
> > wide catchment area or require staff to have a car available for
> > 'work' use.

>
> > It is also significant that those who suffer most from social
> > exclusion due to a lack of

>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



Motoring societies aren't advanced. Switzerland has the highest rates
of public transport use, with the car kept mostly in the garage.
Zurichers take 410 trips by bus, tram and train annually; in
Manchester, the figure is around a third of that. Private transport
effectively offloads social costs on to the individual, with resulting
economic inefficiency. Driving demands (I hope) total concentration,
yet British companies create a dis-economy by bankrolling company
cars, through which executives are de facto subsidised for not
working.

The motorist is taxed far more than he gets in road investment, say
the AA, the RAC and so on. But the global costs of road transport -
congestion, pollution, accidents - estimated by Professor David Pearce
of London University in 1995, outrun direct costs by a factor of
three. We are buying transport - by road and air in particular - too
cheaply, with payment deferred to the next generation.

http://www.newstatesman.com/200006260029
 
Matt B wrote:
> naked_draughtsman wrote:
>> On Feb 12, 8:52 pm, Danny Colyer <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Most of you will probably have heard the news about the No 10
>>> anti-congestion charging petition reaching 1 million signatures:
>>> <http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6353353.stm>
>>>
>>> What hasn't been so well publicised, and is worth knowing, is that there
>>> is also a petition for those who like the idea of car tracking and road
>>> pricing:
>>> <http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/TRACK-CARS/>

>>
>> There were 443 signatures when I clicked that link. After I signed
>> and confirmed and refreshed a few times there were still 443
>> signatures!

>
> Do you support the surveillance/civil liberties implications of the
> proposed measures?
>


Yes. Because driving does cause danger and inconvenience to others and
hence it is fair that those who choose to drive are closely monitored.

> Do you also support the idea of compulsory biometric ID cards?
>

No primarily because the technology doesn't appear to be viable.

But there is a distinction between monitoring a person who choses to
drive a car and monitoring everyone.
 
spindrift wrote:
>
> Motoring societies aren't advanced.


Compared to what - horse-drawn societies, or do we have to go back
further to find societies more advanced?

--
Matt B
 
Buck wrote:

> Matt's question is valid, would we accept personalised tracking devices
> for every individual
> in the U.K. including cyclists, linked to a central net so local and
> national government
> can see where you are/have been at any given time?


As I understand it the system proposed can, at worst tell the government
where you've BEEN, rather than where you are.
Your mobile phone company, on the other hand, does know where you are
albeit with less accuracy.

Roger
--
Roger Thorpe

My email address is spamtrapped. You can work it out!
 
Nigel Randell wrote:

> "naked_draughtsman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...


> We already have pay as you go motoring - fuel duty. If motoring is to be
> made more expensive (I think that's inevitable), then why on earth not
> collect the extra dosh through a system that's already in place and working
> well rather than relying on a massive new infrastructure?
>

An excellent question , the answers that I've heard are at best
unconvincing;
a./The scheme is designed to reduce congestion by encouraging traffic to
use different routes and travel at different times.
(unconvincing, because if the congestion itself doesn't encourage
re-routing or rescheduling then I don't think that charging will)
b./ The scheme is designed to avoid penalizing the rural population who
'need' to travel further.
(possibly, but there must be better and cheaper ways of doing that)

does anyone have any better augments?





--
Roger Thorpe

My email address is spamtrapped. You can work it out!