Our government...

[Ian Rogers]

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Ian Rogers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
Snip

> |
> | Pete Fagerlin is too kind in restricting his description of you as a 'thumper', a "righteous
> | nation prevailing" indeed! There's no need to subscribe to outlandish conspiracy theories about
> | the political Right in America to understand that a coup happened when the Supreme Court ruled
for
> | Bush, and that Bush and the religious right are gradually eroding the American Constitution and
> | hard won individual rights. And clearly you
are
> | one of the 'crowd' who subscribe to religious hijacking of the body
politic,
> | and Bush's warped political agenda.
> |
> | It's people like you slavishly supporting Bush's dangerous policies out
of
> | some religious zeal that have damaged some of the genuine goodwill and sympathy that many people
> | around the world have for America,
particularly
> | since 9/11, and have given just cause for the fear many in the Muslim
world
> | have of 'Christian' America. Worse, you and those like you, in your attitudes and support for
> | Bush have managed to outrage and inflame
moderates
> | in the Muslim community around the world.
> |

> |
> | Ian (the atheist in the foxhole) Rogers
>
> Isn't usenet great?
>
> We can both agree that cleanbean the revival dancing machine is a thumper
yet I strongly
> disagree with your Bush/Supreme Court/religious hijacking screed.
>
>
>
> --
> Pete Fagerlin
>
> Save Fruita trails! http://www.petefagerlin.com/bookcliffs.htm
>
>

Usenet is great and I wish I could have restrained myself to abuse but I've always lacked self
discipline. Maybe I should get out the hair shirt?

I will however show great self-discipline in not getting into a discussion (and perhaps unnecessary
and long boring thread) about my opinion of Bush's victory as a coup, and the religious Right's
hijacking of American politics. Mainly because there's so much to say about these phenomena and I
don't have the time.

So, maybe in the future, when I can get back to the States to do some biking, we can crack a couple
of beers and mull it all over!

Ian

Rogers

 

[Cleanbean]

"Stephen Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> CleanBean says:
>
> >One can cop out with negative remarks such as yours or one can have faith and
hope
> >that we do have a Supreme Being to guide us, our Nation in our time of need.
>
> The problem now is that we are breaking one of his 10 commandments - and
the
> Bog One at that. "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't matter if someone is shooting at tyou or not,
> the rule is self-explanatory. So, for GW to claim that here is a religious feeling behind the war
> is hypocracy of the worst kind, and the worst kind of religious zealotry (the
one
> that makes people use religion to suit their own ends). If Bush were a true Christian, we woyuld
> not be at war and the Army would
not
> have guns.
>
> Steve - and I said I was going ot stay out of this......

I wouldn't be quoting scripture unless you can do it in context. He also said there is a time for
war, didn't he? No hard feelings Stephen, this is just debating. There is a time for war. I also
wish I knew what a true christian was! All I know is that I'm not perfect but just forgiven! Man,
I've never taken such a beating on my Christianity as I have verbally today. I don't plan to back
down and will defend what I stand for.

Cleanbean

 

[Cleanbean]

"Ian Rogers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Cleanbean" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:xR%[email protected]...
> >
> > GT said, > Why is it negative to think I have free will? Why does our Nation need
> > > guidance from an imaginary being? Is this the 12th century?
> >
> > Christians have always sought out guidance since before the 12th
century.
> >
> > >Adding up all the Baptist congregations in the USA they form the
largest
> > > religious group. It's called tyranny of the majority.
> >
> > Its called doctrinally correct. Could it be that Baptists are fundamentalists and seek the truth
> > through scripture and is attractive
to
> > the Christian faith? Why do sincere Mtbers buy from a LBS rather then Walmart?
> >
> > > Yes, I see our dead soldiers. I guess they served a false god.
> >
> > How ignorant! How can you compare? The numbers speek for themself. A righteous Nation is
> > prevailing. We are in a just war and will win.
> >
> > > There you go, I must be dark because I don't believe in myth and
legend.
> > > Exactly the attitude that this resolution encourages.
> >
> > No no. Like I said before, things are more black and white then you
> think.
> > You are not dark, just in the dark. I was once in the dark and wondered about the light. I can
> > now see the light and try to stay away from darkness. What good can it bring?
> >
> > It is not my intent to preach or indoctrinate anyone. I'm simply
stating
> > how I believe. You have freedom to do as you wish and choose to believe
> in
> > God or not. I have been a Christian since '82 and know where I stand.
I
> > have not had a peachy life but have had many filling times and do
believe
> I
> > have had help through rough times. I feel secure in the fact that my
sin
> > has been forgiven and I have an advocate when I will finally stand
before
> > the judgement seat. I consider myself a dependable person and steadfast
> in
> > life. I'm content pretty much whereever I'm at in work or play. I will support our leadership
> > and President's request as will 75% of Judeao Christian America.
> >
> > Cleanbean
> >
> >
>
> I've followed this thread with increasing amounts of shock and awe, as
well
> as hilarity. But, now I have to tell you that you're just the kind of religious nutcase that puts
> the fear into freedom loving people
everywhere!
>
> BTW, is that 75% of white judeao Christian America? And where do you get
75%
> from anyway? Is that the same 75% who believe Iraq was responsible for the Twin Towers atrocity.?
>
> Bush, and his sleazy governments' links to the Christian right and corrupt industrialists are ever
> increasingly exposed by those media organisations which don't themselves have their own reasons
> for supporting his
government
> and their policies. More so since the war began in Iraq.
>
> Pete Fagerlin is too kind in restricting his description of you as a 'thumper', a "righteous
> nation prevailing" indeed! There's no need to subscribe to outlandish conspiracy theories about
> the political Right in America to understand that a coup happened when the Supreme Court ruled
for
> Bush, and that Bush and the religious right are gradually eroding the American Constitution and
> hard won individual rights. And clearly you are one of the 'crowd' who subscribe to religious
> hijacking of the body
politic,
> and Bush's warped political agenda.
>
> It's people like you slavishly supporting Bush's dangerous policies out of some religious zeal
> that have damaged some of the genuine goodwill and sympathy that many people around the world have
> for America, particularly since 9/11, and have given just cause for the fear many in the Muslim
world
> have of 'Christian' America. Worse, you and those like you, in your attitudes and support for Bush
> have managed to outrage and inflame
moderates
> in the Muslim community around the world.
>

>
> Ian (the atheist in the foxhole) Rogers

You think that I'm a Bible Thumper because I spew fourth a few rants about righteousness,
conservatism and mention God? I'm a freaking lightweight to most Christian fundamentalists. Let a
Charismatic talk about his religion for a few minutes and I will look like an atheist in comparison.
I'm not too surprised at how Christianity is attacked so blatantly. Tell someone that you are a
Christian and you are automatically labeled a "Bible Thumper".

It's obvious that Bush haters are at the center of Antiwar protests. You can see it up and down the
party lines. Ian your rants are unfounded and incorrect. I won't resort to name calling because I
don't think that you deserve to be called names. I don't agree with you but I don't hate you for
disagreeing with me. I guess this is Usenet and you think its ok to blast someone you don't even
know. I don't operate that way and wish you well.

Cleanbean

 

[Michael Dart]

"Ian Rogers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:%[email protected]...
>
> So, maybe in the future, when I can get back to the States to do some biking, we can crack a
> couple of beers and mull it all over!
>

I wish that all the worlds differences could be solved that way.

Mike

 

[Cleanbean]

"Stephen Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> CleanBean says:
>
> >One can cop out with negative remarks such as yours or one can have faith and
hope
> >that we do have a Supreme Being to guide us, our Nation in our time of need.
>
> The problem now is that we are breaking one of his 10 commandments - and
the
> Bog One at that. "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't matter if someone is shooting at tyou or not,
> the rule is self-explanatory. So, for GW to claim that here is a religious feeling behind the war
> is hypocracy of the worst kind, and the worst kind of religious zealotry (the
one
> that makes people use religion to suit their own ends). If Bush were a true Christian, we woyuld
> not be at war and the Army would
not
> have guns.

All copouts Steve. All untrue too.
>
> Steve - and I said I was going ot stay out of this......

So have you figured it out yet? Is there a time to kill? I hate to say it but if someone is shooting
at me they better hit me or they are a dead man.

1. There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:
2. a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot,
3. a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build,
4. a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance,
5. a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
6. a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away,
7. a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak,
8. a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace. Ecclesiastes 3

 

[Cleanbean]

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Cleanbean" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
> I warned you thumper and you didn't heed my advice.
>
> Your ignorance is appalling, yet all too common amongst thumpers.
>
> IN GOD WE TRUST was not printed on our currency by our forefathers nimrod.
>
> It was added to the two cent coin in 1864 and wasn't added to paper money until 1957.
>
> Now would be a great time to start educating yourself.
>
I guess you had that stored in your photographic mind eh? If I had more time I could have done a
google search or something before I spouted off, but then again I'm not surprissed by your quick
response and attack. Nimrod? Thumper? Are those the big words you learned in college? I'm man enough
to admit I did not know when our currency got those phrases added to it and to me, you are still
Pete, and not nimrod.

Cleanbean

 

[L Hays]

"Cleanbean" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Stephen Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > CleanBean says:
> >
> > >One can cop out with negative remarks such as yours or one can have faith and
> hope
> > >that we do have a Supreme Being to guide us, our Nation in our time of need.
> >
> > The problem now is that we are breaking one of his 10 commandments - and
> the
> > Bog One at that. "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't matter if someone
is
> > shooting at tyou or not, the rule is self-explanatory. So, for GW to claim that here is a
> > religious feeling behind the war is hypocracy of the worst kind, and the worst kind of religious
> > zealotry
(the
> one
> > that makes people use religion to suit their own ends). If Bush were a true Christian, we woyuld
> > not be at war and the Army
would
> not
> > have guns.
>
> All copouts Steve. All untrue too.
> >
> > Steve - and I said I was going ot stay out of this......
>
> So have you figured it out yet? Is there a time to kill? I hate to say it but if someone is
> shooting at me they better hit me or they are a dead
man.
>
> 1. There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:
> 2. a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot,
> 3. a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build,
> 4. a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance,
> 5. a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
> 6. a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away,
> 7. a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak,
> 8. a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for
peace.
> Ecclesiastes 3
>
>
I thought it was the Byrds in '65?

Just a moment of levity, we now bring you back to your scheduled program.

Lance

 

[Cleanbean]

You know for years I never knew those lines were in the Bible. Heck, I never even considered God
until someone let me in on the secret. John

 

[Slacker]

"Cleanbean" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> You know for years I never knew those lines were in the Bible. Heck, I never even considered God
> until someone let me in on the secret. John

Amen!

--
Slacker

 

[Cleanbean]

"P e t e F a g e r l i n" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Cleanbean" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> | > | Where does it say, "In God we Trust"? Did our forefathers make a
> | > mistake?
> | > | Has the United States of America been prosperous since? Something is happening that isn't
> | > | right here. Some would have us take the Pledge
> of
> | > | Allegiance and "under God" out of it. What is happening to us? Are
> we
> | > | getting so open minded our brains are falling out? (chuckle) I don't
> | > think
> | > | when the Constitution was written and spelled out separation of
> chruch
> | > and
> | > | state they wanted God out of the picture.
> | >
> | > Before you make yourself look like any more of an ignorant religious
> nut
> | > case, you might want to educate yourself about the views that our forefathers had regarding
> | > religion, Christianity, and God.
>
> | I'll do that Pete. In the meantime why don't you refresh us? Were they
> so
> | strong about their views that they would print it on our currency?
>
> I warned you thumper and you didn't heed my advice.
>
> Your ignorance is appalling, yet all too common amongst thumpers.
>
> IN GOD WE TRUST was not printed on our currency by our forefathers nimrod.
>
> It was added to the two cent coin in 1864 and wasn't added to paper money until 1957.
>
> Now would be a great time to start educating yourself.
>
Pete, I thought I could find this somewhere: The following Proclamation can be found in Vol. I of
the eleven volume set titled A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents 1789-1908
by James D. Richardson, a representative from the State of Tennessee, published by Bureau of
National Literature and Art 1908. PROCLAMATION A NATIONAL THANKSGIVING [From Sparks's Washington,
Vol. XII. p. 119.]

Here was one of the founding Fathers you might remember. (George Washington ring a bell?)

Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His
will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas
both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of
the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with
grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an
opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:" Now,
therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of November next, to be devoted by the
people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author
of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him
our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country
previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable
interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree
of tranquillity, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and rational
manner in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and
happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted; for the civil and religious
liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful
knowledge; and, in general, for all the great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer
upon us. And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to
the great Lord and Ruler of Nations, and beseech Him to pardon our national and other
transgressions; to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and
relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the
people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and
faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as
have shown kindness to us), and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote
the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and
us; and generally, to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows
to be best. Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3d day of October, A.D. 1789. Go.
Washington.

 

[Cleanbean]

"Stephen Baker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bean quotes:
>
> >Ecclesiastes 3
>
> No fair, Bean! That's Old Testament, and not strictly speaking
"Christian".
> You can use the OT for great stuff like "an eye for an eye", but it took
Christ
> to say "turn the other cheek", which is in _direct_ opposition to the OT
view.
> There are a great many religions (sub-sects, if you will) that still
follow the
> Old Testament, perhaps you should give one of those a try...... (just kidding!!!!)
>
> Steve

Isn't the Ten Commandments in the Old Testament? Cleanbean

 

[Kathleen]

Stephen Baker wrote:
> Bean quotes:
>
>
>>Ecclesiastes 3
>
>
> No fair, Bean! That's Old Testament, and not strictly speaking "Christian". You can use the OT for
> great stuff like "an eye for an eye", but it took Christ to say "turn the other cheek", which is
> in _direct_ opposition to the OT view. There are a great many religions (sub-sects, if you will)
> that still follow the Old Testament, perhaps you should give one of those a try...... (just
> kidding!!!!)
>
> Steve

Yeah, sure, turn the other cheek and the next thing you know, you've got a 70 foot tower full of
peeping fanatics in your back yard.

Kathleen And as if that's not bad enough, due to the general lack of towers in the vicinity, I fully
expect a construction like that would draw every sniper in the bi-state area. They'd have to take
numbers to sort out who gets to make their final stand next. No thanks. NIMBY.

 

[Paladin]

miles todd <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<oprmrrb9tdlkb6ka@news-server>...
> On 28 Mar 2003 15:13:29 -0800, Paladin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>..
> >> ...is regressing by the hour. And all along I thought there was a separation of state and
> >> church in this country. Soon we'll have an army of Baptist preachers calling us to prayer over
> >> loudspeakers spread across the land:
> >>
> >> http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/27/sprj.irq.fasting.ap/index.html
> >>
> >> Greg
> >
> > I suppose if the election had gone the other way, we could have had a proclamation for a
> > National Day of Stupidity. And greepeacers would be out like and army with loudspeakers calling
> > us to hug trees. Just a thought...
> >
> > Paladin
> >
>
>
> What, you mean if GW Bush had won the election? I can see the national day of stupidity thing, but
> not the tree-hugging...
>
>
> Miles

Are you still hanging on a chad? Time to let go....

Paladin

 

[Doug Taylor]

"Paladin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Now I read it over quickly and couldn't see which "particular religion" our government is
> espousing. Did you? Catholic? Protestant? Methodist? Lutheran? Unitarian? Zoroastrian? Unitarian?
> Satanism? Atheism? Humanism? New Age?

Singlespeed'ism?

 

[Doug Taylor]

"Cleanbean" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> That's easy logic. You are not coherent enough or wise enough to care
about
> your own body or someone else's body that would be a by product of your recklessness while under
> the influence. The Government has to outlaw
drugs
> so you don't ruin yourself or others.

Oh, is that all it is? Big Brother watching? That sure calms me down.

The difference between you and me is that I'm NOT addicted to any drug - legal or illegal - whereas
you ARE addicted to Jesus. In a rational society, I'd be considered just another normal citizen and
you'd be considered mentally ill.

Unfortunately for me, we live in a society where religious whack jobs are considered to be normal
and are taking over a government which was founded upon separation between church and state. Our
President is a former alcoholic (read: drug addict), now a Jesus freak like you, and is basing our
government's foreign and domestic policy upon a puerile, fundamentalist understanding of
Christianity.

When the religious nuts completely take over, how long will it take before they invoke the Spanish
Inquisition?

This is what the phrase "Fear and Loathing" is all about.

 

[R.White]

"Ian Rogers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<%[email protected]>...

> Usenet is great and I wish I could have restrained myself to abuse but I've always lacked self
> discipline. Maybe I should get out the hair shirt?
>
> I will however show great self-discipline in not getting into a discussion (and perhaps
> unnecessary and long boring thread) about my opinion of Bush's victory as a coup, and the
> religious Right's hijacking of American politics. Mainly because there's so much to say about
> these phenomena and I don't have the time.

If Bush's victory was a coup then the Democrats surely would have gained control of congress in last
Novembers election. They didn't.

 

[S.G.]

>Soon we'll have an army of Baptist preachers calling us to prayer over loudspeakers spread across
>the land:
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/27/sprj.irq.fasting.ap/index.html
>
> Greg

Is it really fair to ask god to take sides in this issue? Do they hope to make him a part of the
coalition of the willing? Maybe they should offer a bribe to god, 40 billion may be a good start. I
am sure Jerry Farwell will be happy to play the middle man in that transaction. But then again, 40
billion wasn't good enough for Turkey. Oh well.

 

[Chris Snell]

"Cleanbean" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:xR%[email protected]...
> Its called doctrinally correct. Could it be that Baptists are fundamentalists and seek the truth
> through scripture and is
attractive to
> the Christian faith? Why do sincere Mtbers buy from a LBS rather
then
> Walmart?
>
> > Yes, I see our dead soldiers. I guess they served a false god.
>
> How ignorant! How can you compare? The numbers speek for themself.
A
> righteous Nation is prevailing. We are in a just war and will win.
>
> Cleanbean

No, Cleanbean, the number of dead in a war have nothing to do with "right", except in the terms of
"might makes right". The US will win this war because they have better weapons and better training.

Body counts in wars have nothing to do with who is without sin or who is moral, in fact in war often
the less moral wage war with lower body counts because they can use tactics not available to a
"moral" enemy.

I'm not saying that is the case here, but that you should base your convictions on some other
arguement.

- Chris

 

[Chris Snell]

"Cleanbean" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

Much snippage going on here, sorry Cleanbean if you feel I am taking your comments out of context.

> > Open your eyes. Look at what's going on around you.
> >
> On the contrary. We are not killing people for what they believe.
We are
> killing them for their actions. Iraq is only reaping what they
sowed. You
> can sit around on your butt while Tyrants kill their own people and
produce
> WMD indangering the whole world, but not me.
>
> My eyes are open. I see good and evil at work. You see only gray.
You
> don't think the war effort is justified? Do you think Sadam will be contained? Open your eyes man!
>
> Cleanbean

I agree with you Cleanbean on much of this. I see a government reaping what they have sowed. I see a
Tyrant killing his own people. I see a nation producing WOMD and endangering the whole world.

In fact, I see two of them.

- Chris.

 

[Miles Todd]

On 28 Mar 2003 21:37:39 -0800, Paladin <[email protected]> wrote:

> miles todd <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<oprmrrb9tdlkb6ka@news-server>...
>> On 28 Mar 2003 15:13:29 -0800, Paladin <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote in message >
>> news:<[email protected]>..
>> >> ...is regressing by the hour. And all along I thought there was a >>
>> separation of state and church in this country. Soon we'll have an army
>> >> of Baptist preachers calling us to prayer over loudspeakers spread >>
>> across the land:
>> >>
>> >>
>> http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/03/27/sprj.irq.fasting.ap/index.html
>> >>
>> >> Greg
>> >
>> > I suppose if the election had gone the other way, we could have had a proclamation for a
>> > National Day of Stupidity. And greepeacers would be out like and army with loudspeakers calling
>> > us to hug trees. Just a thought...
>> >
>> > Paladin
>> >
>>
>>
>> What, you mean if GW Bush had won the election? I can see the national day of stupidity thing,
>> but not the tree-hugging...
>>
>>
>> Miles
>
>
> Are you still hanging on a chad? Time to let go....
>
> Paladin
>

I think the number is something like 500,000 more people voted for Gore than Bush the Lesser.
Including, ironically, a majority in Florida.

Miles

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