steve-> Having read the article that is pretty much the definition of SST/L4 training. No junk miles just either really hard or recovery.
-js
-js
Outside magazine "beware the black hole"
- Thread starter slowfoot
- Start date
My training in the past 3years has been primarily (almost exclusively this year) in the 'black hole'. I didn't really do it deliberately, but in 2008 when the whole PMC/TSS/CTL business was fresher I strove to maximise CTL, so inbetween a couple of threshold workouts a week I pushed the tempo. It was a breakthrough year for me, but I also spent large chunks of it sick and often underformed in races due to fatigue. Then in 2009/10 I gradually reduced the threshold workouts - I couldn't handle the tempo and the threshold without getting tired/sick, threshold by itself didn't work, so tempo it was. I also dropped from 5workouts a week to 4workouts, again due to fatigue, and the threshold workouts I did were often a bit poor due to fatigue. However the reduction in training load did mean that I was able to race fresher, and I achieved the same FTP in 2010 as in 2008 and better race performances despite doing a lot less hours and practically nothing apart from 75-80% MHR tempo.
However, I was completely in that black hole - was never able to raise the intensity in intervals or threshold workouts, but wasn't doing enough volume (due to fatigue) so couldn't afford to reduce the tempo volume any further. Also with the addition of yet another kid to our pack anmd the additional fatigue I cracked mentally and have struggled for months.
Recently though I bit the bullet and stopped the 75-80% training in favour of 65-75% (Z2) training. It was a case of either quit riding or stop this grindstone of mediocre moderate workouts with no light or shade. Haven't been on the changed routine long but I'm feeling 100% better and am excited about ways of squeezing more riding in to my schedule rather than dreading the Z3 grinds. And a did a threshold session on Saturday and enjoyed and attacked it rather than suffered through with dead legs.
Sorry about the long rambling tale, but as someone who responds quite quickly to lower training loads than some people, but who also suffers more under too much load, I think basing my training on Z3 equals just too much stress with any reasonable volume. It prevents me doing anything harder and makes me stale (in training and at home/work), but if I then reduce the Z3 I'm not doing enough volume and don't get good adaptions. But basing things on Z2 I enjoy riding and can do a reasonable volume, and am fresh and motivated for 1-2 hard workouts (Z3/Z4/Z5) a week long term.
2011 will hopefully be interesting! Like I say this is a recent change so it may prove that I'm nothing without the Z3.
However, I was completely in that black hole - was never able to raise the intensity in intervals or threshold workouts, but wasn't doing enough volume (due to fatigue) so couldn't afford to reduce the tempo volume any further. Also with the addition of yet another kid to our pack anmd the additional fatigue I cracked mentally and have struggled for months.
Recently though I bit the bullet and stopped the 75-80% training in favour of 65-75% (Z2) training. It was a case of either quit riding or stop this grindstone of mediocre moderate workouts with no light or shade. Haven't been on the changed routine long but I'm feeling 100% better and am excited about ways of squeezing more riding in to my schedule rather than dreading the Z3 grinds. And a did a threshold session on Saturday and enjoyed and attacked it rather than suffered through with dead legs.
Sorry about the long rambling tale, but as someone who responds quite quickly to lower training loads than some people, but who also suffers more under too much load, I think basing my training on Z3 equals just too much stress with any reasonable volume. It prevents me doing anything harder and makes me stale (in training and at home/work), but if I then reduce the Z3 I'm not doing enough volume and don't get good adaptions. But basing things on Z2 I enjoy riding and can do a reasonable volume, and am fresh and motivated for 1-2 hard workouts (Z3/Z4/Z5) a week long term.
2011 will hopefully be interesting! Like I say this is a recent change so it may prove that I'm nothing without the Z3.
I train ~15hrs per week year round, although in the winter, only 10 of those hours are on the bike, the rest is strength/core training. When the weather is nice, I am on the bike 15hrs/week, and functional training unfortunately goes by the wayside . . .
Year round, however, I train on the bike 4 days per week. 3 of those days are VO2 type intervals (or threshold depending on what training phase I am on), and one day is a long >3hr ride ridden at ~80-85% of threshold (I don't use a HR monitor, so I don't know how it translates exactly). Those rides are never followed the next day by an interval session, but instead by a rest day (active recovery on the bike when the weather is nice). Then when I come back two days later, I am more than ready to do my intervals at the prescribed intensity. Some of you are training 5-6 days per week, and if you mean 6 days of intervals and long/hard rides, then I don't know how you do it. From my perspective, rest needs to incorporated into every training plan, so I take my recovery rides as seriously as my intervals.
Year round, however, I train on the bike 4 days per week. 3 of those days are VO2 type intervals (or threshold depending on what training phase I am on), and one day is a long >3hr ride ridden at ~80-85% of threshold (I don't use a HR monitor, so I don't know how it translates exactly). Those rides are never followed the next day by an interval session, but instead by a rest day (active recovery on the bike when the weather is nice). Then when I come back two days later, I am more than ready to do my intervals at the prescribed intensity. Some of you are training 5-6 days per week, and if you mean 6 days of intervals and long/hard rides, then I don't know how you do it. From my perspective, rest needs to incorporated into every training plan, so I take my recovery rides as seriously as my intervals.
calico-cat/RDO-> I am thinking once I get back up to a level where I feel I am closer to my old numbers of trying an L2 approach. Too early to say but just like any other training, there will be some plateau and to just keep the same training regimen with no improvement over a descent amount of time indicates you need to change it up. You have to decide when you have reached that time.
I do believe once you get past 40 you have to think about more recovery time. I have heard the same story from many no matter the physical endeavor.
-js
I do believe once you get past 40 you have to think about more recovery time. I have heard the same story from many no matter the physical endeavor.
-js
mods, thanks for the great pic on the front page.
i love it when you guys get discussing the various training philosophies, i think you have condensed all the hundreds of SOT posts to one page!
all of a sudden i can start to make sense of it all. you have to admit it is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff to get the essence of training.
for a beginner, it is so easy to over analyze and get "paralysis by analysis" too.
my take away:
i don't need to, nor is it good to go out and crush myself every workout. but with a steady and varied workout the gains will come.
dave
i love it when you guys get discussing the various training philosophies, i think you have condensed all the hundreds of SOT posts to one page!
all of a sudden i can start to make sense of it all. you have to admit it is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff to get the essence of training.
for a beginner, it is so easy to over analyze and get "paralysis by analysis" too.
my take away:
i don't need to, nor is it good to go out and crush myself every workout. but with a steady and varied workout the gains will come.
dave
Quote:
Originally Posted by slowfoot .
my take away:
i don't need to, nor is it good to go out and crush myself every workout. but with a steady and varied workout the gains will come.
dave
Gains just don't come... Gains come from planning and structured training and there are times where the need to crush yourself is required and desired. Sometimes you have to take a minute to step back from the present to look at the big picture, especially when you're done suffering for the day.
Originally Posted by slowfoot .
my take away:
i don't need to, nor is it good to go out and crush myself every workout. but with a steady and varied workout the gains will come.
dave
Gains just don't come... Gains come from planning and structured training and there are times where the need to crush yourself is required and desired. Sometimes you have to take a minute to step back from the present to look at the big picture, especially when you're done suffering for the day.
slowfoot->You are correct that not every work out should be crushing but you will need to push yourself out of your "comfort zone" on a fairly regular basis to see gains. As swampy said every once in a while a good crushing is not bad but that should be every once in a while otherwise develop a schedule where it is difficult but not so difficult that you can not get on the bike for several days. BTW, we talk about L2 training as if it is so easy but you go put in that many hours in the saddle, day after day and see how it feels. Also my L2 vs. a pro's L2 may have some very big differences.
You will see the gains come but make sure you define your goals. Is it hanging on with a club ride? upcoming race? fitness? Define it and build around it.
-js
You will see the gains come but make sure you define your goals. Is it hanging on with a club ride? upcoming race? fitness? Define it and build around it.
-js
hmmm
i am finding that defining a goal isn't that easy.
there's one race i do in june; i will be joining the local racing club this year, with their weekly races.
so it will be weekly "how long can i go before i get dropped".....
so is my goal
-how long can i hang?
-what is is my FTP up to?
-which gives out first legs or wind?
-peak for one race?
but i am finding it hard be patient to train within my numbers, i did one 20 min interval then could do only manage 12 min for the second before i gave up.
sorry if this echoes SOT's journey but your encouragement and advice are appreciated.
dave
i am finding that defining a goal isn't that easy.
there's one race i do in june; i will be joining the local racing club this year, with their weekly races.
so it will be weekly "how long can i go before i get dropped".....
so is my goal
-how long can i hang?
-what is is my FTP up to?
-which gives out first legs or wind?
-peak for one race?
but i am finding it hard be patient to train within my numbers, i did one 20 min interval then could do only manage 12 min for the second before i gave up.
sorry if this echoes SOT's journey but your encouragement and advice are appreciated.
dave
Hi Dave,
"how long can I hang?" is not a goal, it is a question. A goal would be more along the lines of: To not get dropped, or finish in the top10.
Since you are a beginner, I think you should register for, and race in, as many races as possible to gain experience. Defining goal races may make more sense for next season. But the goal of not getting dropped is a good one. Meeting that goal is as much about training as it is about racing smart, and racing smart takes experience. So train hard, race lots, and finish in the field (that might take working to increase your FTP, but that is a means to an end, not an end itself).
slowfoot-> I can only go by personal experience but your questions out there are kind of too broad and too vague. Based upon what you wrote may I suggest that
1) Local racing club -> This is really important that you join and train regularly with the club. Clubs differ alot in terms of the caliber of riders. Ride with them on their training rides even now and see how it is.
2) FTP -> The training rides with your group will give you lots of experience. I am not sure if you have a PM or a CT but if you have the equipment test your ftp and start to train with power on the days you do not ride with the club.
For me it was like 2 nights I would ride with the club and 3 days I would train on my own. The combination is key. I would not try races right away. If you can do well with your club rides you will do well with your races. In the beginning do not be discouraged. For many including myself you probably will not be able to hang that long with the group. You will eventually get better. Also if you are lucky you can find someone in your club who is willing to work with the new riders.
-js
1) Local racing club -> This is really important that you join and train regularly with the club. Clubs differ alot in terms of the caliber of riders. Ride with them on their training rides even now and see how it is.
2) FTP -> The training rides with your group will give you lots of experience. I am not sure if you have a PM or a CT but if you have the equipment test your ftp and start to train with power on the days you do not ride with the club.
For me it was like 2 nights I would ride with the club and 3 days I would train on my own. The combination is key. I would not try races right away. If you can do well with your club rides you will do well with your races. In the beginning do not be discouraged. For many including myself you probably will not be able to hang that long with the group. You will eventually get better. Also if you are lucky you can find someone in your club who is willing to work with the new riders.
-js
Slowfoot,
It sounds like you're trying to run before you're ready to walk.
You're right in your belief that defining a goal isn't as easy at first as one would think.
The best goals are the ones that are both realistic and will bring a good deal of satisfaction if accomplished. They don't have to be similar. I could say that I wanted to do sub 14 hours total time for a 200 mile bash in the high mountains and a sub 22:30 for a 10 mile TT. Massively different goals with a rather large disparity in training required BUT they're both something I know I can do and something I know could motivate me in training.
"Train within my numbers" - what numbers would those be? Speed, power, heart rate?
If you're new to competitive riding and you're in the US I'd take a look at the road racing calendar for your region. Early on in the season is, surprise surprise, a time when there's lots of race clinics and training races.
If this is your first real season of riding I wouldn't get too hung up about goals, power, speed etc etc, instead I'd just get out there and ride, ride, ride. If you have an interest in racing then go do the early season races and clinics, join a club and do their rides and midweek "chaingangs", spend some time figuring out how everything on the bike works, how to adjust and fix stuff when you're out on the road. If you find something fun then it's all good, hell, stick some knobbly tires on and have a go at cyclocross...
you are so right, i need to get my toes wet first before diving in.
but that's what's great about you guys and these forums, i can get a framework to plan, measure, and test my abilities. then i can go test them against others.
i know it will be discouraging at first ( and maybe forever) but i will be mentally prepared.
that way i can fall back on my progress as measured by the power data if i am not moving a up in the finishing numbers.
from what i hear the cat 5 races in my area can be faster than the cat4's, just more tactical in the 4's.
as long as i am within myself (avoiding injury, burnout) i know eventually i'll hang. it may take a while .
as for this season you read my mind:
did a couple of CX races last season, great fun but ballbusters! no rest or coasting there.
it was power-on for 40 min!
what a great atmosphere too.
i'll definately be back next fall.
dave
but that's what's great about you guys and these forums, i can get a framework to plan, measure, and test my abilities. then i can go test them against others.
i know it will be discouraging at first ( and maybe forever) but i will be mentally prepared.
that way i can fall back on my progress as measured by the power data if i am not moving a up in the finishing numbers.
from what i hear the cat 5 races in my area can be faster than the cat4's, just more tactical in the 4's.
as long as i am within myself (avoiding injury, burnout) i know eventually i'll hang. it may take a while .
as for this season you read my mind:
did a couple of CX races last season, great fun but ballbusters! no rest or coasting there.
it was power-on for 40 min!
what a great atmosphere too.
i'll definately be back next fall.
dave
The way those in pro tours, do days-on-end is to
A.) be 20 yrs old.
B.) be at 1% body fat and
C.) float in packs of 100+ riders.
I don't know how many here have been in the midst of a pack of 100+ riders, but,
the majority of effort goes into not bumping annyone and maintaining a straight line while soft pedaling.
Also referred to as the "No-Zone", this technology has been around for years.
Why am I not surprised that Bicycling, err, I mean Outside Magazine,
has put a new label on it and sold it as if were new?
If you want to read stuff to apply to your programming, read works by those who have solid backgrounds
in the field of fitness and a lot to lose by misinforming the public.
Arnie Baker, Andy Coggan, Ed Burke, there have to be hundreds of authorities on the subject of fitness and exercise physiology. They have years of scientific study, in laboratories, under their belt.
Outside magazine, is NOT one.
As for "how to keep cycling fun?"
Well, if you consider building fitness to peak,
ripping the legs off your competition,
becoming stronger,
longer and,
faster every year for
about 30 years, to be fun,
then you'll develop a scientific program and work it.
If, you consider being really fast for about 60 days per year;
your career grinding slowly to a halt as the result of
an extensive series of fatigue -related injuries; to be
fun.
Then you'll want to do whatever you feel like doing or what you read on the message board this week,
w/o regard to its effect on your fitness and well -being.
You know, if people want to be stupid, its fine.
But, when they try to influence others to be stupid, I think that's bad.
A.) be 20 yrs old.
B.) be at 1% body fat and
C.) float in packs of 100+ riders.
I don't know how many here have been in the midst of a pack of 100+ riders, but,
the majority of effort goes into not bumping annyone and maintaining a straight line while soft pedaling.
Also referred to as the "No-Zone", this technology has been around for years.
Why am I not surprised that Bicycling, err, I mean Outside Magazine,
has put a new label on it and sold it as if were new?
If you want to read stuff to apply to your programming, read works by those who have solid backgrounds
in the field of fitness and a lot to lose by misinforming the public.
Arnie Baker, Andy Coggan, Ed Burke, there have to be hundreds of authorities on the subject of fitness and exercise physiology. They have years of scientific study, in laboratories, under their belt.
Outside magazine, is NOT one.
As for "how to keep cycling fun?"
Well, if you consider building fitness to peak,
ripping the legs off your competition,
becoming stronger,
longer and,
faster every year for
about 30 years, to be fun,
then you'll develop a scientific program and work it.
If, you consider being really fast for about 60 days per year;
your career grinding slowly to a halt as the result of
an extensive series of fatigue -related injuries; to be
fun.
Then you'll want to do whatever you feel like doing or what you read on the message board this week,
w/o regard to its effect on your fitness and well -being.
You know, if people want to be stupid, its fine.
But, when they try to influence others to be stupid, I think that's bad.
