Oxford platinum steel frame



amazinmets73

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Aug 11, 2010
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alfeng said:
Quote:Originally Posted by amazinmets73 .What's your opinion on running a 53-39 on a cross bike?

For 'CX racing' 53[COLOR=FF00AA]/[/COLOR]39 creates gearing which is much too steep (i.e., impractically high gearing which would not be used during a CX race) ...
  • strong CX riders typically had a 48t outer Chainring [COLOR=FF00AA]+[/COLOR] 39t-or-38t inner Chainring ... some CX riders now just race with a single Chainring (42t-or-44t, I presume)
For 'normal' use on the road, Why not use your Chorus crankset & its 53[COLOR=FF00AA]/[/COLOR]39 Chainrings?
That's what I was thinking, but wouldn't it be too much of a hassle to have to change cranksets if I wanted to race?
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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amazinmets73 said:
That's what I was thinking, but wouldn't it be too much of a hassle to have to change cranksets if I wanted to race?
For your first few races, you can probably just leave the chain on the inner Chainring .... AFTER your first few races, you will know if you want to use something larger than 39t.
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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Originally Posted by amazinmets73

Has anyone here ridden Veloce? If so, what did you think?
FYI. The internal mechanism of the pre-2009 Veloce shifters is essentially the same as in a Record shifter EXCEPT FOR the bearing/bushing & consequent diameter of the shaft; so, they function the same ... which is to say that before 2009, most non-Xenon Campagnolo shifters which were from the less expensive groups were bargains AND it was mostly a weight & cosmetic issue (alloy vs. carbon fiber).

In 2009, Campagnolo chose to use the elegant-but-limited-motion Xenon mechanism is all the groups BELOW Chorus ...

Currently, the mechanism in below-Chorus groups use an updated Xenon mechanism ... I think 2011-and-2012 Mirage-to-Athena shifters (which had the NEWer, V3 style shape) had the "big boy" Ultra Shift mechanism.

The Xenon mechanism is elegantly simple, but its return mechanism is limited to a simple "escape" (as found in a spring driven watch/clock) mechanism which only allows one notch per actuation ... that translates as ONE COG AT A TIME. I think that the front (left) shifter now presumes only a Double as it seems (?) like the thumb shifter just dumps chain from the outer ring to the inner ring (i.e., trim on your way up?) ...

  • I could be WRONG about the left shifter on the Power Shift shifters!

Despite the simpler mechanism, it seems that Campagnolo has managed to make the Power Shift shifters heavier than the Ultra Shift shifters ...

  • I did NOT actually weigh the shifters and THAT impression is based on simply holding the two types of shifters at the same time in my bare hands

FWIW. While I think that it's worth ponying up for the shifters which have the "big boy" mechanism, I don't have a problem with using the "junior" version of Campagnolo's shifters.
 

amazinmets73

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Aug 11, 2010
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So the best bet would be to hunt down an old pair of Campagnolo 10 speed shifters on EBay? Aside from weight, how much are you losing in performance with Veloce over the higher tier Campy groups?
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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FWIW. Again, the difference between a pair of less expensive pre-2009 Veloce Campagnolo shifters & a pair of Campagnolo Record shifters is [COLOR=FF00AA]mostly[/COLOR] cosmetic ... [COLOR=FF00AA]Only[/COLOR] the central shaft & shift paddle (because it pivots on the central shaft whose size is dictated by the minuscule variance in the inner diameter of the bushing & Ball Bearing cartridge) are not directly interchangeable between Record/Chorus & Campagnolo's lesser, non-Xenon-based shifters ... the paddle which rides on the larger diameter shaft can be used with a shifter which has a slightly smaller shaft ... conversely, the paddle for a Record shifter could theoretically be used on the slightly larger diameter shaft if you simply enlarged the hole through which the shaft passes (but, why would you?). Campagnolo could have spec'd the bushing to have the same inner diameter of the ball bearing cartridge, but I suppose that THAT would have made life too easy. Other than the shaft & shift paddle, a Record shifter could be rebuilt with Centaur/Veloce/etc.
 

amazinmets73

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700
09 Jamis Nova Pro. Haven't weighed it but it's definitely lighter than the Gary Fisher. Thinking Veloce for this one.
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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Originally Posted by amazinmets73

Alfeng, would you go for a road or MTB rear derailleur?
Well, if you are going to use a Shimano rear derailleur, then I would recommend a comparatively vintage Shimano XTR 950/952 or XT 750 MTB rear derailleur instead of any of Shimano's Road rear derailleurs (vintage/recent or current) ...

  • the XTR 950 rear derailleur actually had the choice of three different cage lengths very subjectively, Shimano's best rear derailleur
  • the subsequent XTR rear derailleurs had cosmetic finishes which seemed more fragile (more easily marred)
[*]I vaguely recall that the XT 750 rear derailleur came with two different cage lengths

Obviously, you are not limited to a comparatively vintage Shimano rear derailleur.

  • I like the design of Shimano's SHADOW rear derailleurs, but do not have any ...

FYI. A couple of months ago when I was re-configuring my vintage FUJI S-10S, I decided that I should finally test the limits of a medium cage Campagnolo 9-/10-speed Road rear derailleur. To my surprise (Why didn't I figure this out sooner?!?), it worked with a 53/39 crankset + a whopping 12-34 9-speed XTR Cassette!

  • the derailleur handled the large Cog without any problems
  • and, the medium cage length was long enough to handle the chain for the fore mentioned combination ...

If you think you may want to use a 50/34 or 50/36 chainring combination with a MTB Cassette, then a long cage would probably be a safer choice.

If you will be using a "compact" crankset with a regular Cassette, then a medium cage would be fine ... of course, a short cage is fine if you will be running a tight Cassette.

So, IMO, your derailleur choice can be as much a cosmetic choice as anything ... with availability the limitation for an XTR 950 rear derailleur vs. your wallet being the limitation for a recent/current medium-or-long cage Campagnolo Road rear derailleur.

BTW. Campagnolo rear derailleurs are comparatively porky when compared to a presumably equivalent-grade Shimano rear derailleur.
 

amazinmets73

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So, it's time for me to buckle down and get these bikes built. I'm going to build the Jamis first. I'm using Athena alloy powershifters. If I'm correct in the assumption that I'll have no problem pairing them with an Ultegra 6800 RD, that's what's ill use. As for a wheelset, I have my eyes on the Carbotech K30s Merlin has on sale.
 

amazinmets73

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[ATTACHMENT=549][ATTACHMENT=551][ATTACHMENT=552]image.jpg (2,134k. jpg file)[/ATTACHMENT][/ATTACHMENT][/ATTACHMENT] Just had this built 2010 Jamis Supernova, 56CM Chorus 11 speed shifters XTR M971 RD 105 FD 9 speed XTR 7701 chain Planet X bollox cantilevers Rival 50/34 crankset (I'm actually going to change the crankset in a few days to a Gossamer 48/34) Ritchey Comp 44CM handlebars FSA OS-150 stem Zipp service course CX bar tape Bontracer RXL seatpost Fizik Arione saddle Michelin Jet cross tires Mavic CXP22 wheels (I'll upgrade the wheels soon) So Alfeng, I couldn't resist. I promise I'll get down and dirty and build the Presidio myself
 

retrogrinch

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Jan 1, 2015
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Originally Posted by alfeng

If you think you may want to use a 50/34 or 50/36 chainring combination with a MTB Cassette, then a long cage would probably be a safer choice.

If you will be using a "compact" crankset with a regular Cassette, then a medium cage would be fine ... of course, a short cage is fine if you will be running a tight Cassette.

So, IMO, your derailleur choice can be as much a cosmetic choice as anything ... with availability the limitation for an XTR 950 rear derailleur vs. your wallet being the limitation for a recent/current medium-or-long cage Campagnolo Road rear derailleur.

BTW. Campagnolo rear derailleurs are comparatively porky when compared to a presumably equivalent-grade Shimano rear derailleur.
To put in some numbers… the new 10 & 11 spd SRAM & Shimano standard rear derailleurs work fine with a compact (50/34) or standard 53/39) cranks and 11x28 cassette.

Regarding Campy 10sp groups, I've been riding this on a road bike and on a CX bike since it first came out (yes very first generation of 10sp) and a few observations:
- Campy by far has THE BEST front shifting. Yes I also ride and work on Shimano Dura Ace and SRAM Red. IMO in terms of shifting performance and ease of setup the D/A is a close 2nd to Campy, and SRAM Red 10sp front shifting sucks. Several friends have replaced their Red and Force front derailleurs with Ultegra 10sp front derailleurs. When setup properly an Ultegra FD will shift just fine with the SRAM paddle shifters.

- When working properly Campy 10sp rear shifting is great. So are SRAM and DA. Different feel so with DA being the lightest and Campy being the "heaviest" click (clunk?). I have better luck setting up and tuning in Shimano rear derailleurs. I can get Campy and SRAM dialed in, but for me the Shimano seems to be easier to adjust. At the end of the day all work great.

- Campy rear shifters wear out quickly. Fortunately they can be rebuilt. Unfortunately the part that breaks is about $30. More unfortunately it's about $75 to have the LBS pull the rear shifter off the bike and rebuild. The owner is a great mechanic so I don't mind so much, but I figure a rebuild every 5k miles or so. This is consistent with my 10sp Record & Centaur shifters and my wife's Chorus 10sp. FWIW the Campy front brifters have NEVER needed any work. It's nice to be able to rebuild shifters, but IMO the 10sp Campy rear brifters wear out too quickly.

- Campy bottom brackets have been a mixed bag. The Record internal BB on my road bike died after 2k miles or so. Waaaaay to early IMO. The CX had the Centaur BB and that lasted longer which is great considering I pampered the road bike and the CX lived on gravel roads and mild single track. Replaced the Centaur BB on the CX with a Chorus (much lighter) and have been even happier with the Chorus as it's been working for more than 10 years now. Replaced the standard Record crankset with a Chorus compact with the external bearing bottom bracket. This has worked great!

- When I went to compact cranks on my road bike I did not replace the FD - I kept the standard Record FD. Did I mention Campy has excellent front shifting? Never miss a shift. Never drop the chain. Ever. Period.

- Brakes are excellent with Shimano and Campy. My bike with SRAM Red has Specialized house brand brakes that stop fine but the quick release barely spreads the brake shoes so it's a PITA to use 25mm tires. Keep thinking of getting a cheap set of Force brake calipers which will work better, but I've been too cheap.

- Cassettes. Last item… If I keep an eye for sale items can get a very nice Ultegra 10sp Shimano cassette for $35. The better Centaur 10sp cassettes are $100 and up. Last I saw, Record 10sp cassettes were in the $300 range. Not only that, but Campy simply doesn't make the gear ratios I want/need. My fav is the 11x26 and 11x28 available with Shimano and SRAM. The Campy 11x25 is good but for long days in the mountains I'd prefer a bail out gear. No I'm not a mountain goat…

I'm in the process of planning the build for my next road project and will be opting for Ultegra 11sp. Price and gear ratios are what drove me from Campy. For me the 11sp 11x28 cassette is sufficiently tight for racing a pancake flat crit and still gets me a bailout climbing gear. This will be my first 11sp bike.
 

amazinmets73

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Oh yea, I was stunned by how much better the FD shifting was on this new build as opposed to Sram Force. As far as gear ratios pushing you away from Campy, why not just use Shimano 11 speed cassettes with a Campy RD?
 

retrogrinch

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Jan 1, 2015
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Originally Posted by amazinmets73

As far as gear ratios pushing you away from Campy, why not just use Shimano 11 speed cassettes with a Campy RD?
Yeah that's a good idea but at the time I started this project I didn't know that 11sp wheel sets were interchangeable. The only down side is that it makes buying a parts group a bit more complicated (buy a Campy group, sell the cassette and buy a Shimano cassette)…

I will be interested in hearing if the 11sp Campy rear shifters are more durable than 10sp. It's great that one can rebuild the shifters, I just wish they lasted longer before needing to be rebuilt.

Cheers,
Greg
 

amazinmets73

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Aug 11, 2010
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Selling the cassette may be a minor inconvenience, but think of all the money you'll save running Shimano cassettes in instead of Campy over the years!
 

retrogrinch

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Jan 1, 2015
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Originally Posted by amazinmets73

Selling the cassette may be a minor inconvenience, but think of all the money you'll save running Shimano cassettes in instead of Campy over the years!
Amazin' I certainly can't argue with the logic, but I'm certain there are plenty of Campy purists who would cringe at the idea of mixing Campy and Shimano!
devil.png
I already have the parts for my current project but this build isn't going to be my last.
cool.png


BTW, I thot the Amazing Mets were '69. No?
 

amazinmets73

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retrogrinch said:
Amazin' I certainly can't argue with the logic, but I'm certain there are plenty of Campy purists who would cringe at the idea of mixing Campy and Shimano! :devil:   I already have the parts for my current project but this build isn't going to be my last. :cool: BTW, I thot the Amazing Mets were '69. No?
Who's going to look at your bike closely enough to see what brand cassette you're running? They reached the WS in '73. As atrocious as the Mets have been for the last decade and a half, what fan wouldn't sign up for that?
 

alfeng

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Jul 23, 2005
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amazinmets73 said:
700
So Alfeng, I couldn't resist. I promise I'll get down and dirty and build the Presidio myself
[COLOR=008000]SWEET!!! [/COLOR] BTW. I hope that your LBS's Wrench realized that adjusting the [COLOR=FF0000]unauthorized[/COLOR] derailleurs was undoubtedly EASIER with the Campagnolo shfiters & he subsequently did NOT charge you a surcharge for that lesson ... Heck ... After he was done, he should probably have decided that he should have paid YOU for the privelege!