Packing stuff on a bloody bike



On Sun, 25 Jul 2004 21:05:04 GMT, in
<[email protected]>, Simon Brooke
<[email protected]> wrote:

>in message <[email protected]>, Richard Bates
>('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>> I remember when the internet was only in black & white.
>> It only had a few pages but at least they all worked.

>
>It may come as a surprise to you to know that the Internet has no pages,
>and is not in any colours or shades at all, not even black and white.
>The World Wide Web has pages, but it is not the Internet, being both
>much younger and also living in a different layer on the stack.


Simon, you really should get out on you bike more ;-)

--
I remember when the WORLD WIDE WEB was only in black & white.
It only had a few pages but at least THOSE ON A DIFFERENT STACK all worked.
 
Simon Br
> The World Wide Web has pages, but it is not the Internet, being both
> much younger and also living in a different layer on the stack.


You mean it's a subdirectory ;-)

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/
 
Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:

: It may come as a surprise to you to know that the Internet has no pages,
: and is not in any colours or shades at all, not even black and white.
: The World Wide Web has pages, but it is not the Internet, being both
: much younger and also living in a different layer on the stack.

"A different layer on the stack"?

Only if "the Internet" = IP traffic.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook
 
On 26/7/04 10:04 am, in article [email protected], "Arthur
Clune" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:


> : It may come as a surprise to you to know that the Internet has no pages,
> : and is not in any colours or shades at all, not even black and white.
> : The World Wide Web has pages, but it is not the Internet, being both
> : much younger and also living in a different layer on the stack.


> "A different layer on the stack"?


> Only if "the Internet" = IP traffic.


So if the Internet is not IP traffic, what is it?

...d (who remembers when email had to be explicitly routed through the
inter-network gateways)
 
Just zis Guy, you know? <[email protected]> wrote:
: Arthur Clune wrote:

:> Only if "the Internet" = IP traffic.

: And the I stands for?....

Protocol.....

I always think of "the internet" as being the whole cabodle - routers,
fibre, packets the lot.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook
 
in message <[email protected]>, Arthur Clune
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : It may come as a surprise to you to know that the Internet has no
> : pages, and is not in any colours or shades at all, not even black
> : and white. The World Wide Web has pages, but it is not the Internet,
> : being both much younger and also living in a different layer on the
> : stack.
>
> "A different layer on the stack"?
>
> Only if "the Internet" = IP traffic.


What does IP stand for?

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us
;; many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets.
;; Imagination without skill gives us modern art.
;; Tom Stoppard, Artist Descending A Staircase
 
Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:

: What does IP stand for?

Ask yourself this. Why do we need the "P" in IP if the internet = IP?

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : What does IP stand for?
>
> Ask yourself this. Why do we need the "P" in IP if the internet = IP?


Because it is a protocol. The Internet is the collection of networks
whose common feature is the IP.

You said: '"A different layer on the stack"?

Only if "the Internet" = IP traffic.'

In response to a comment about HTTP being a layer on the stack, not the
internet. HTTP _is_ a layer on the stack. And the Internet _is_ IP
traffic. What people chose to put on top of this is entirely up to them!

:)

Jon
 
in message <[email protected]>, Arthur Clune
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Just zis Guy, you know? <[email protected]> wrote:
> : Arthur Clune wrote:
>
> :> Only if "the Internet" = IP traffic.
>
> : And the I stands for?....
>
> Protocol.....
>
> I always think of "the internet" as being the whole cabodle - routers,
> fibre, packets the lot.


Well, that's another way of looking at it, and equally accurate. But
that still doesn't have any pages, just boxes and bits of string.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; "If I were a Microsoft Public Relations person, I would probably
;; be sobbing on a desk right now" -- Rob Miller, editor, /.
 
Jon Senior <jon@restlesslemon_dot_co_dot_uk.remove> wrote:

: And the Internet _is_ IP traffic.

Pendantry it maybe, but I don't agree. The internet _consists_ of IP
traffic. The internet _is_ the physical infrastructure + all the IP
traffic.

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
> Jon Senior <jon@restlesslemon_dot_co_dot_uk.remove> wrote:
>
> : And the Internet _is_ IP traffic.
>
> Pendantry it maybe, but I don't agree. The internet _consists_ of IP
> traffic. The internet _is_ the physical infrastructure + all the IP
> traffic.


Still not convinced. The only common factor is the IP. The underlying
hardware can and does differ. Maybe it should be "The Internet is the
physical infrastructure + all the IP traffic, while the internet is IP
traffic. ;-)

Jon
 
On 26/7/04 2:15 pm, in article [email protected],
"Jon Senior" <jon@restlesslemon_DOT_co_DOT_uk.remove> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
>> Jon Senior <jon@restlesslemon_dot_co_dot_uk.remove> wrote:
>>
>> : And the Internet _is_ IP traffic.
>>
>> Pendantry it maybe, but I don't agree. The internet _consists_ of IP
>> traffic. The internet _is_ the physical infrastructure + all the IP
>> traffic.

>
> Still not convinced. The only common factor is the IP. The underlying
> hardware can and does differ. Maybe it should be "The Internet is the
> physical infrastructure + all the IP traffic, while the internet is IP
> traffic. ;-)
>

Or to be even more pedantic:

An internet is a collection of logically[1] distinct networks that
interoperate using Internet Protocol.

The Internet is the publically available internet.

...d

[1] Logically distinct as in separately addressable hardware spaces. As soon
as you do not know the specific hardware address of the machine you want (as
it may be on a different network using a different physical layer) you have
to use a higher level, ie IP.

We run multiple logical networks over the same physical network, making use
of IP to keep everything sweet.
 
On Sat, 24 Jul 2004 08:19:48 +0100, Richard Corfield
<[email protected]> wrote:

>JohnB wrote:
>> What other 'interesting' nights' out have others had?

>
>Two very memorable ones:
>
> Bivvying on top of Peny-Ghent we could see the stars, including one really
>big shooting star that came very low into the atmosphere before burning
>out. It was quite a spectacular firework.


I saw an absolute corker when bivvying high in the Pyrenees. A real
fireball with sort of sub-shooting-stars falling off it.

> Getting lost (I wasn't the one with the map - honest!) on a scout
>expedition on Kielder Water, failing to find a waypoint where the tents
>were hidden. We thought that the scout leader had planned it that way to
>test our emergency survival skills (he'd do that kind of thing), and slept
>quite comfortably in a makeshift shelter in the woods just back from the
>lake side whilest lots of scout leaders, helpers and wardens went looking
>for us.
>
> - Richard
 
Simon Brooke wrote:

>
> What does IP stand for?
>


Internet Protocol. Its a rudimentary thing that lets you say "I want to send
this packet of data to this address (probably a computer)". Its so basic,
it doesn't even guarantee the packet of data will get there.

You build more complex things on top of it (TCP for example, Transfer
Control Protocol I think) to make more reliable connections. TCP adds
things like automatic retry if the packet of data doesn't get there, and
reassembling the original order if packets of data arrive out of sequence.

The World Wide Web is built on top of TCP. It generally uses TCP Port 80
(like a phone extension number in a big office block, with 65536 phone
points in it). The protocol is called HTTP for Hyper-Text Transfer
Protocol, and like many protocols is human readable. This means you can
debug it easily which is really handy. If you get hold of a packet sniffer
(I use Ethereal), you can see whats going on.

When you get a web page, your computer effectively phones up the other
computer (with an IP number, like 192.168.002.090), port 80, and says
something like

GET / HTTP/1.1
Host: www.somewhere.com
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.7) Gecko/20040704
Accept: text/xml,application/xml,blah de blah...
Accept-Language: en-gb,en;q=0.5
Accept-Encoding: gzip,deflate
Cookie: openwebmail-httpcompress=0

which means "get the page called "/" for the web site called
"www.somewhere.com". I'm Mozilla 5.0 etc etc. I like all these different
file types (and its a big list), in English please, compressed if you want,
and here's a cookie you gave me earlier."

The computer on the other end replies with the contents of the web page on
that site. An interesting point is that any computer attached to the
internet can serve web pages, unless your service provider gets in the way
by blocking the traffic. Its a peer to peer system, which really frightens
those used to control of how information is disseminated.

A lot of Internet stuff is complex things made out of basic things. HTTP is
built on TCP is built on IP. Mail (SMTP, on top of TCP, on top of IP) is as
simple and crude as IP, but you can build more complex things like secure
mail on top of it. Companies that have forgotten this make mistakes.

IP doesn't mean Intellectual Property at all, honest. This is just a new
buzzword that has started coming out of legal departments and seems to mean
"Whatever we can get our grubby little hands on, even if you didn't
previously think such a thing could even be owned. If it helps us make a
quick buck or squash any form of competition, all the better".

I suppose the theory is that if economies based on making and selling
tangibles are steadily declining, then we're going to have to start owning
intangibles. It doesn't seem good for small companies/people without big
legal departments, or for free competition if the basic ideas behind
something can be owned rather than just the details of a particular
implementation.

Imagine if MacDonalds owed the concept of fast food. No matter what you
think of their quality, they have to compete which means its better than it
could be. Someone owns the concept of sending music over the internet, even
though it was possible (music file over File Transfer Protocol) long before
that patent was granted. The owner of that patent didn't even have to
implement something. Its a method patent - an abstract concept.

Ownership of such an abstract concept is ludicrous anyway, and as a proof in
point, a recent sample simple online store was shown to infringe on 20 or
so different patents. If you were honest, and not an Intellectual Property
Thief at all, then setting up an online store would cost a fortune for all
of those license fees, never mind the cost of getting a lawyer to research
them for you.

The risk if you don't - the patent owner finds you and takes you to court.
They can charge what they want, or even close down your business - all for
using a basic idea that you thought was so obvious anyone could come up
with it, only someone did, and bought a patent for it.

Its a good job no-one patented HTTP above - or we'd have no World Wide Web,
and the Internet would have probably never taken off.

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.
 
Richard Corfield [email protected] opined the following...
> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
> >
> > What does IP stand for?
> >

>
> Internet Protocol... <snip>


You've been waiting to get that off your chest for while haven't you?

What a curious response to a post. You are Eliza and I claim my five
(three sir) three rules of robotics.

Jon
 
Jon Senior <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote:
> You've been waiting to get that off your chest for while haven't you?


Current pet rant. Unfortunately I think too many people are blindly ignorant
of it (the lawyerish IP, not the technical one).

> What a curious response to a post. You are Eliza and I claim my five
> (three sir) three rules of robotics.


Not here, but I'm pretty sure the person I spoke to today at an insurance
company call centre was. Voice recognition was good though, or at least
better than the automatum at Vue Cinema's call center. Either that, or the
poor person was bored of going through the same script day by day.

Alternatively - obviously not enough cycling! Left the bike at work tonight
and got a lift back. Its in the middle of nowhere, and has security guards
and CCTV, so it _should_ be OK. Also the bike is looking more of an older
less nickable thing. I'll take the tandem in tomorrow, give the bike to the
wife to cycle back on, and take the tandem back solo when I travel home an
hour later than she does.

That said - I went horse riding for the first time in a couple of weeks, and
think too much cycling has stiffened up my muscles a bit. People at karate
generally claim that sports like that stiffen you up, and you have to do
stretches and similar excercises to compensate. Presumably the new muscle
built through cycling is shorter having not been stretched by karate or
being bent round a horse.

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.
 
in message <[email protected]>, Richard Corfield
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>>
>> What does IP stand for?
>>

>
> Internet Protocol. Its a rudimentary thing that lets you say "I want
> to send this packet of data to this address (probably a computer)".
> Its so basic, it doesn't even guarantee the packet of data will get
> there.


[snip]

Dearest beloved, we know all this. The question was rhetorical.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

-- mens vacua in medio vacuo --
 
Simon Brooke wrote:

>
> Dearest beloved, we know all this. The question was rhetorical.
>


OK then. I'll go and hide in my corner and do something more useful with my
time, like plan our next group ride or source a PA system for our local
village hall or something.

Anyone any experiences of the Soundcraft GigRac? Cheaper than equivalents by
the likes of Yamaha. Ooops - meant to be running and hiding, best not
answer that.

- Richard

--
_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/_/ Richard dot Corfield at ntlworld dot com
_/ _/ _/ _/
_/_/ _/ _/ Time is a one way street,
_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/_/ Except in the Twilight Zone.
 

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