paint for route marking

[David L. Johnso]

On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 22:47:35 -0500, Gordon Dewis wrote:

> According to one product description found at http://www.rainbowracing.com, spray chalk can be
> cleaned up with water pressure or a broom and detergent. They caution that the stuff should be
> used in well-trafficked areas. What about using the spray chalk and then having a water truck wash
> the markings off afterwards? If you have a buy-in from the local officials, they might even supply
> the water truck.
>
> How many people are likely to participate?

In the century? About 1000.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or _`\(,_ | that we are to
stand by the president right or wrong, is not (_)/ (_) | only unpatriotic and servile, but is
morally treasonable to the American public. --Theodore Roosevelt

 

[Gordon Dewis]

"David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 22:47:35 -0500, Gordon Dewis wrote:
>
>
> > According to one product description found at http://www.rainbowracing.com, spray chalk can be
> > cleaned up with water pressure or a broom and detergent. They caution that the stuff should be
> > used in well-trafficked areas. What about using the spray chalk and then having a water truck
> > wash the markings off afterwards? If you have a buy-in from the local officials, they might even
> > supply the water truck.
> >
> > How many people are likely to participate?
>
> In the century? About 1000.

If there's that many, then arranging a water truck shouldn't be a logistical issue.

--G

 

[B A R R Y B U R]

"David L. Johnson
>
> On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 17:24:30 -0500, B a r r y B u r k e J r . wrote:
>
> >
> > Try www.grainger.com and look for pavement marking paint used by utilites.
>
> I have been told that even utilities' marking of roads is illegal. And whatever they use around
> here is fairly permanent.

I would be very suprised if that's true. Most "Call Before You Dig" type programs are state
organized and/or sponsored, for the public good. In most cases it's illegal to dig before CBYD
gives the OK.

Barry

 

[Frank Krygowski]

"David L. Johnson
>
> This depends on the authorities. We are having serious trouble with one state park that our
> century goes through. Even small arrows at turns give these park officials apoplexy. We almost
> lost the use of the park last year by painting turns in areas that were not even identified as
> parkland, though they claim in their maps that it was part of the park.

When I ran it, our annual century started and ended at a park. For the roads within the park, we
hand-chaled the arrows. You can buy thick chalk sticks (about 1.5" diamter) for such purposes.

--
Frank Krygowski [email protected]

 

[Frank Krygowski]

Skip wrote:
>
> Tom's comments are right-on the money. I really don't have much more to add.
>
> It if really, positively, has to be gone in a week, my only suggestion is the old idea of nailing
> paper-plates with arrows drawn on them to fenceposts and then taking them down later.

In some areas, posting signs within the highway right of way is illegal. Certainly, such signs are
more likely to be gone by the time a rider needs them - either due to wind, or due to adjoining
landowners removing them. Besides, with signs, it's likely to be quite difficult to duplicate the
common practice (at least for our club) of an advance warning, two marks just before the turn, and
one "confirmation" mark after the turn. I'd stick with the road markings.

> As for conflicts with the authorities -- it doesn't matter how many (few) square-inches you are
> painting. I've found that it helps if you can show them that your are using chalk.

I think this is another situation where the letter of the law may be more strict than any practical
application needs to be. For the area Skip discusses - north of Pittsburgh - I've been on rides
organized by clubs, and as I recall, the roads were marked in the standard way: paint on the roads.
The marks are tiny enough that there can be no _practical_ objection. The odds on getting stopped by
police while doing it are small indeed, in my experience. Granted, there could be a bike-hating cop
who decided to make your life miserable, but our club has never come across such a thing.

In such a case, I'd think an appeal to superiors, mentioning the safety needs of the riders, would
get quick relief.

--
Frank Krygowski [email protected]

 

[Frank Krygowski]

Cycling Joe wrote:
>
> ... I've seen many people miss the markings on road surfaces if they are done to small.

That's why our club typically does three markings before each turn. They're much harder to miss.

It's works the same as repeating a post three times on Usenet. ;-)

--
Frank Krygowski [email protected]

 

[Skip]

"Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> For the area Skip discusses - north of Pittsburgh

Actually, I'm in the Santa Clara Valley ("Silicon Valley") 50 miles south of San Francisco.

I agree that the "letter of the law" is much more restrictive than what really happens in
practice. Still, marking the pavement through "downtown" areas (we steer our centuries away from
metropolitan downtowns, but there are a number of smaller full-cities that we go through) can be
and has been noticed.

I'm not aware of any of our club members being cited while route-marking, but there is the
occasional "warning" from the authorities. We also have some number of "bike-hating" officers, but I
do not feel that this is a factor in route-marking "incidentes".

Agreed that paper-plates are "less legal" than pavement markings if you look at the actual
ordinances.

Backtracking a bit, Tom's observation about spray chalk -- fades quickly, but can leave a faint
impression for quite some time -- again matches my experience.

- Skip

 

[Karen M.]

Len wrote:
> ...spray chalk ... paint over with black after the ride... ... stencils ...

Long-time readers of the magazine published by the organization Formerly Known as the L.A.W.
might recall a how-to piece by Dan Henry, hisownself. (During my editorial tenure, perhaps? I
don't even recall!) No stencil needed. The markers look roughly like this: O- with the line
pointing in the direction of the turn or continuing straight.

> Arrows about 12" long work best, one 40 yards or so before the turn, one at the turn and a
> confirming arrow after...
Yep, and if you ride the route while doing arrows you'll know where to place them. Obviously, a
turn in the middle of or after a downhill needs more/bigger/spread-out arrows than one on the
flat, or at a stop sign. And be sure to clearly mark the spot where the shorter routes turn and
the century goes straight!

> My holy grail is finding somewhere I can get temporary lane marking tape (the stuff for temp lines
> during construction) cut into arrow shapes. It would be faster, less messy and easily removable.
> Anyone find it yet?
That stuff is cut into shape as needed, on-site. It is removable but it's also durable, since
most construction efforts last for months under motor traffic load.

HTH --Karen M.

 

[Steve Palincsar]

On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 13:07:24 -0500, Karen M. wrote:

> Len wrote:
>> ...spray chalk ... paint over with black after the ride... ... stencils ...
>
> Long-time readers of the magazine published by the organization Formerly Known as the L.A.W.
> might recall a how-to piece by Dan Henry, hisownself. (During my editorial tenure, perhaps? I
> don't even recall!) No stencil needed. The markers look roughly like this: O- with the line
> pointing in the direction of the turn or continuing straight.
>
>> Arrows about 12" long work best, one 40 yards or so before the turn, one at the turn and a
>> confirming arrow after...
> Yep, and if you ride the route while doing arrows you'll know where to place them. Obviously, a
> turn in the middle of or after a downhill needs more/bigger/spread-out arrows than one on the
> flat, or at a stop sign. And be sure to clearly mark the spot where the shorter routes turn and
> the century goes straight!
>
>> My holy grail is finding somewhere I can get temporary lane marking tape (the stuff for temp
>> lines during construction) cut into arrow shapes. It would be faster, less messy and easily
>> removable. Anyone find it yet?
> That stuff is cut into shape as needed, on-site. It is removable but it's also durable, since
> most construction efforts last for months under motor traffic load.

Before your time, Karen. I read about them in LAW Bulletin back in the early 1970s. I think it might
have also appeared in the old Bicycling back in the 60s.

More about the Dan Henry Arrows: he recommended using road paint, stored in bicycle water bottles,
painted with a brush. Ride the route; squirt a blobbie of paint on the road where the arrow is
req'd, smush it into a circle with the brush, point it, put on the arrowhead, continue riding. An
advantage of doing it this way it you are seldom noticed.

See, and all this time people think of Dan Henry only as a strip-tease artiste (his disrobing while
riding a bicycle on rollers entertained thousands).

 

[Hunrobe]

>"Dave Cook" [email protected]

wrote:

>I,m routing a 65 mi. ride north of Pittsburgh, PA for Shriners' Childrens hospitals and I need
>paint for pavement marking that will not last forever. Is there something specific for this type of
>application? Anybody have any experience with this?

If the route is over roads maintained by more than one political subdivision-
i.e., a city street vs. county road vs. park road- and you want to do it legally you'll first have
to contact the responsible party at each political entity and get their permission for
markings of _any_ kind. Expect to hear "no" a lot. Here's a sampling of the answers I've
gotten in the past:

Paint- "No. It's too permanent and the wrong color paint or wrong markings can result in utility
work crews ripping up pavement in the wrong spot."

Stencil paint that wears off in a couple of weeks- See above.

Chalk that disappears in just a few days - See above.

Signs- "Okay but they must be removed within 24 hours."

I think all the objections to marking the pavement have more to do with the entity's liability for
the marker than with the actual markings. No government official wants to testify in a wrongful
death suit saying, "When he was struck and killed by the motor vehicle, the deceased was standing in
the middle of a street in our town marking the pavement. I told him he could that.". That would
explain why signs located next to the road are pretty much universally acceptable. For the roadway
commisioner, et al there's not as big of a liability issue _next_ to the road as there is _on_ the
road. It's frustrating for the route committee but also understandable from those officials'
viewpoint.

Regards, Bob Hunt

 

[David L. Johnso]

On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 11:56:04 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> "David L. Johnson
>>
>> This depends on the authorities. We are having serious trouble with one state park that our
>> century goes through. Even small arrows at turns give these park officials apoplexy. We almost
>> lost the use of the park last year by painting turns in areas that were not even identified as
>> parkland, though they claim in their maps that it was part of the park.
>
> When I ran it, our annual century started and ended at a park. For the roads within the park, we
> hand-chaled the arrows. You can buy thick chalk sticks (about 1.5" diamter) for such purposes.

Yeah, we are going to have to do this, too.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality. -- _`\(,_ | Michael Crichton
(_)/ (_) |

 

[David L. Johnso]

On Sun, 09 Mar 2003 11:51:46 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

> _practical_ objection. The odds on getting stopped by police while doing it are small indeed, in
> my experience. Granted, there could be a bike-hating cop who decided to make your life miserable,
> but our club has never come across such a thing.
>
> In such a case, I'd think an appeal to superiors, mentioning the safety needs of the riders, would
> get quick relief.
>
Our (BCP) century goes through two state parks, Evansburg and Valley Forge. The VF rangers could not
be more cooperative, but the Evansburg rangers seem to regard the park as their own little fiefdom.
It's only one or two rangers who are a problem, unfortunately, though, those are the ones in charge.
Yes, they do seem to have a thing about bicycles. Part of the problem is that they believe
mountain-bikers have destroyed their horse trails, but the rest are just control issues.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can _`\(,_ | assure you that mine
are all greater. -- A. Einstein (_)/ (_) |

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Skip" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:IEKaa.22841$qi4.14024@rwcrnsc54...
>
> "Frank Krygowski" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > For the area Skip discusses - north of Pittsburgh
>
> Actually, I'm in the Santa Clara Valley ("Silicon Valley") 50 miles
south of
> San Francisco.

Skip, I already said that in the San Francisco bay area and all of California the local groups can
have NO say in what you put on the roads as long as it doesn't conflict with road markings and isn't
paint. One of our members was the traffic planner for Alameda County so this is good information.

> I'm not aware of any of our club members being cited while
route-marking,
> but there is the occasional "warning" from the authorities.

As soon as you show them the can and it is Chalk and not Paint they cannot say anything. All of the
utilities, the cable services and other commercial people mark the roads with spray chalk and so the
law allows that.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Part of the problem is that they believe mountain-bikers have
destroyed
> their horse trails, but the rest are just control issues.

That's like saying that a dog taking a whizz on a bush is destroying the bulldozer tracks.

 

[John Everett]

On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 11:36:00 -0500, "Dave Cook" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Hey bicyclists,
>
>I,m routing a 65 mi. ride north of Pittsburgh, PA for Shriners' Childrens hospitals and I need
>paint for pavement marking that will not last forever. Is there something specific for this type of
>application? Anybody have any experience with this?

I've been responsible for setting up and marking the route of the Naperville (Illinois) Bicycle
Club's annual invitational (the Melon Metric) for the past several years. We use Krylon pavement
marking paint, which we buy from a local industrial supply store. I believe it's water based (I
don't happen to have a can handy) and washes away with the next good rain.

We use flourescent orange but also buy a few cans of black to be used for corrections. The Krylon
comes in cans that spray straight down when the can is held inverted.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

 

[Bluto]

"Dave Cook" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I,m routing a 65 mi. ride north of Pittsburgh, PA for Shriners' Childrens hospitals and I need
> paint for pavement marking that will not last forever.

How about "spray cheese food product"? It's brightly colored and will probably disintegrate after a
few weeks. :-D

Chalo Colina

 

[Cycling Joe]

--------------010507020507060400010902 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

somebody will eat it!

Bluto wrote:

>"Dave Cook" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I,m routing a 65 mi. ride north of Pittsburgh, PA for Shriners' Childrens hospitals and I need
>>paint for pavement marking that will not last forever.
>>
>>
>
>How about "spray cheese food product"? It's brightly colored and will probably disintegrate after a
>few weeks. :-D
>
>Chalo Colina
>
>

--------------010507020507060400010902 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <title></title>
</head> <body> somebody will eat it!<br> <br> Bluto wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite"
cite="[email protected]"> <pre wrap="">"Dave Cook" <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a> wrote:

</pre> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">I,m routing a 65 mi. ride north of Pittsburgh, PA for
Shriners' Childrens hospitals and I need paint for pavement marking that will not last forever.
</pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!----> How about "spray cheese food product"? It's brightly
colored and will probably disintegrate after a few weeks. :-D

Chalo Colina </pre> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html>

--------------010507020507060400010902--

 

[Skip]

Tom points out

> Skip, I already said that in the San Francisco bay area and all of California the local groups can
> have NO say in what you put on the roads as long as it doesn't conflict with road markings and
> isn't paint.
. . . snip . . .
> As soon as you show them the can and it is Chalk and not Paint they cannot say anything. All of
> the utilities, the cable services and other commercial people mark the roads with spray chalk and
> so the law allows that.

Agreed. It does not stop the original contact and some people are more meek than others. Some (you
and I included) are not shy about standing up for our rights. Others try to avoid conflict.

As I've said above (and as you agree) we send out chalking parties and have not had any serious
problems. However, some have been stopped-and-questioned over the years. Not many. A few.

- Skip

 

[Raymo853]

I know of a group that used flour to make a route and it was mistaken for an anthrax attack.

"GregR" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 11:36:00 -0500, "Dave Cook" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Hey bicyclists,
> >
> >I,m routing a 65 mi. ride north of Pittsburgh, PA for Shriners'
Childrens
> >hospitals and I need paint for pavement marking that will not last
forever.
> >Is there something specific for this type of application? Anybody
have any
> >experience with this?
>
> for a single day event, use regular baking flour. its cheep, biodegradeable, and gone fast.
>
> G

 

[Jim Quinn]

There are probably a lot of places you can get the paint. Try rainbow racing systems.com they sell
some paint that is supposed to do the job.

"Raymo853" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> I know of a group that used flour to make a route and it was mistaken for an anthrax attack.
>
>
> "GregR" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > On Sat, 8 Mar 2003 11:36:00 -0500, "Dave Cook" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >Hey bicyclists,
> > >
> > >I,m routing a 65 mi. ride north of Pittsburgh, PA for Shriners'
> Childrens
> > >hospitals and I need paint for pavement marking that will not last
> forever.
> > >Is there something specific for this type of application? Anybody
> have any
> > >experience with this?
> >
> > for a single day event, use regular baking flour. its cheep, biodegradeable, and gone fast.
> >
> > G