Paketa Magnesium bikes rule!

[alienator]

Too pretty; won't happen.

Yup, it won't happen. Once you look past the prettiness of CF, you find that there is great potential in its use: tunability of vibration damping; tuning stiffness/flex in a component; and many more things that the Percocet won't let me remember, right now. Being able to change a structures performance characteristics just by changing layup direction, resin, whatever is a pretty powerful tool.

Unfortunately, there are enough manufacturers that only make CF stuff because its prettiness sells. Said manufacturers don't make CF stuff for performance reasons. But methinks unobtanium materials attract this sort of manufacturing mentality: "Use it because it's trick or looks cool, but don't pay any heed to the application at hand or the materials limitations."

Weren't one of the first round of Ti bikes made by Ryan? Whoever it was, ended up just making expensive, Ti-tubed noodles.

Mg is an interesting material and certainly has potential...as long as the manufacturer actually puts some brain work into the application's design.

 

[polywog]

Jim, our contributor from Paketa, said they had Litech make a few changes in the frame I got. I wonder what they were exactly?

CF does have that flexibility of design, that is, plies on axis. I've fooled around a little with some fabrics and epoxy, making small parts. I build model rockets and hope to contstruct a complete airframe, once I can figure out a layup strategy. It's definitely an art. It takes a lot of experience and know how, let alone commitment to performance to accomplish what cf is truely capable of. Hence, my comment is to this point.

If you want cf and don't have a wad of cash, you can still have a beautiful wannabe.

 

[joesf]

Chicken, do you have contact information or a website for Litech? The site address listed in this thread does not work any longer.
Thanks, How's the bike still riding?

 

[photocyclist]

I originally purchased a Russian-produced Paketa in the Black fade to blue with yellow graphic scheme. The LBS totally mis-fit me on this bike and there were a couple of other imperfections as well. Even so, I loved the ride of the magnesium, which is very much like carbon, but in a way better, but also leaves no power at the crank, as it doesn't flex (ask Ali "Jet" Petacchi about that one) but the real story is Paketa's customer service.

The imperfections were bother some, but significant enough to be a pain in the ****'. The current President of Paketa is a gentleman named Brian Nelson. Upon here of my situation, he asked to have my frame stripped and returned to Boulder, CO to their current HQ and place of manufacture, as they are not made at all in Russia, but are 100% welded/fabricated in Boulder, CO USA. In fact, while I could be wrong, my serial # on my AWESOME, BRAND NEW frame is BN- 1155, which I believe is Brian Nelson, 1155. Either he welded it himself, or inspected it himself was very impressive to me.



I can tell that they have been working hard to get magnesium right. The geometry is slightly different; tubes have been manipulated for what seems to be aerodynamics (at least the down tube) but are also larger and stiffer. For example, the seat post has gone from 27.2mm to 31.6mm! The powder coat finish is superb; all indicating a huge jump forward in build quality as well as the science of the geometry. I am currently building it up with Record, Ouzo Pro seat post, forks and bars, 06' Zero Gravities, FSA K-Force Mega-Exo Compact crank and the TDF Ksyrium SSC SLs, with Conti GP 400's, topped off with a silver Fizik Aliante carbon seat. Should be beautiful (I hope) as I am selling off three of my bikes to pay for it (some nice ones to, they will be in the classifieds).



Magnesium is a fantastic material to build bikes form if you have the welding expertise as well as all of the other bike building knowledge that goes along with it. It rides like Carbon, but with a little more feel, but when you hit it, it is stiff and there is no give (ask Mr. Ali “Jet” Pettachi himself).



It is hard to build any brand in a market as competitive as the USA. It takes massive time and money. What Paketa needs is what Cervelo got, and Felt to a smaller extent, and that is to be underneath a significant domestic professional squad, or even more unlikely, a ride for the Pros in Europe, like Cervelo received. That is what will make it go.



That’s my two and ½ cents for now.



Y’all take care!

 

[BATMANs]

I just got a Griffen Vulcan.

It's the only current production bike that uses metal matrix (boron, carbide, aluminum, titanium and nickel compressed at 1 million pounds).

SUppose to have the the comfort of titanium, strength of steel and stiffness of aluminum all in one and no fatigue life like titanium. @ $3500 for the frame it better be as advertised and I have yet to hear any complaints from folks.

I understand they use this material in military equipment such as helicopter blades.

I'm curious as to how this compares to magnesium (which seems to have a fatique life of 3 - 5 years)..........

 

[photocyclist]

I just got a Griffen Vulcan.

It's the only current production bike that uses metal matrix (boron, carbide, aluminum, titanium and nickel compressed at 1 million pounds).

SUppose to have the the comfort of titanium, strength of steel and stiffness of aluminum all in one and no fatigue life like titanium. @ $3500 for the frame it better be as advertised and I have yet to hear any complaints from folks.

I understand they use this material in military equipment such as helicopter blades.

I'm curious as to how this compares to magnesium (which seems to have a fatique life of 3 - 5 years)..........

I need to do a little research on magnesium's life. I know it was and is ised primarily in Aerospace, jets, rockets, missles, the shuttle (maybe that's abad example). At $3,500 for frame, it better perfoem extraordinarily well, and not being a metallurgist, I have no idea about the comination of those materials under that kind of extrme pressure and the matrix that results. Sure sounds impressive, though!

I have never ridden a Griffen, but have ridden carbon fiber bikes form Look, Specialized, Giant, Colnago, aluminum from Cannondale and Trek, etc. I am really being honest when I say that the overall ride if the Paketa beats them all, as one might be more cushy, but a little soft, etc., the magnesium has a very unique feel totally unlike all of the others, and closest to a good, stiff (but not overly so) carbon fiber bike, but with kick on accelaeration, and no give on climbs.

I am sure there are tons of other bikess and material combinations I have not ridden yet that may be just as good, and if they are, they are a fiine ride indeed. Thanks for the response.

 

[BATMANs]

About Griffen's Metal Matrix:

<LI>Made from Boron Carbide, reinforced 6092 aluminum Metal Matrix.


<LI>Modulus of elasticity is 14.3 million psi; 4.2 million psi greater that 6061 or 7000 series aluminum.


<LI>38% stronger than aluminum alloys.


<LI>40% lighter than titanium alloys, by volume.


<LI>Stiffer than titanium alloys.


<LI>Fatigue life hundreds of times greater that aluminum alloys.


<LI>COMFORT of Titanium, STRENGTH of steel and STIFFNESS of aluminum.


<LI>Metal Matrix powder metallurgy provides best balance vibration absorbing ride.


<LI>Won't flex in sprint or climbs.

In the late sixties, the government gave UCLA research labs a grant to develop a material that would replace aluminum. The material needed to be stiffer and stronger than aluminum, lighter than aluminum with no fatigue life. To achieve these results they developed a material - boron carbide ceramic metal matrix. They used boron carbide, the hardest known material next to a diamond. When boron carbide is mixed with aluminum it significantly strengthens and stiffens the aluminum. They also developed a process to make this new material. The process yielded a mechanical bond vs. a chemical bond, which is most commonly used. They mechanically combined aluminum, boron carbide, titanium, nickel zinc and copper. They reduced all elements to a 4 micron dust and then mixed them in a jet mill. This provided a homogeneous mixture of all the elements. They then compressed this mixture using a cold isostatic press to form a powder billet. They made various components from the billet, e.g., seats for the Apache helicopter. Griffen takes the billet and extrudes it to make tubing.Because of the powder metallurgy process, the material has inherent microscopic pores, which is absorbent to vibration. This results in a smoother ride. Also, because we use more material by volume as our competition (our material is one half the weight of normal aluminum by volume), we achieve better comfort, lateral stiffness and power transmission all at the same time. We do all this and achieve a frame weight of about 3 pounds, depending on size and frame style.

Tubing Process​

- Griffen tubing begins as boric acid. Boric acid is mixed with graphite (referred to as coke) in a massive, spinning, electric arc furnace which can reach temperatures as high as 6,500 degrees Fahrenheit, a little hotter than your average sunspot. The centrifugal force pushes the molten material up the walls of the furnace. Electricity is then pumped in, creating an arc across the container and transforming the material into Boron Carbide and carbon monoxide.

- The Boron Carbide (the third hardest material known) is broken down into particles five microns in size. The Boron Carbide is then treated to enhance its mixing properties with the 6092 Aluminum powders.

- Molten 6092 Aluminum is atomized by pouring it through high-pressure water jets. The result is an instantaneously solidified, extremely fine and uniform aluminum powder.

- Molten 6092 Aluminum powder particles are then dried, screened for size (five microns or less), weighed and blended with the Boron Carbide particles to prepare them for use.

- Aluminum, Boron Carbide, nickel, zinc and titanium particles are blended in a Jet Mill to homogeneously distribute the reinforcement particles with the aluminum.


- The powder is then poured into flexible elastomer molds and evacuated to remove any air from the mold cavity (degassing it to remove the absorbed moisture is an important process step).

- The molds are subjected to 1,000,000 psi of pressure in a cold isostatic press (five feet high and five feet wide), transforming the powder into a solid billet.

- The billet is sintered to virtually full density in a vacuum furnace, creating a billet that is in an annealed, heat-treated condition.

- The billet is then extruded into various size and shape tubes for Griffen framesets.


- After welding, the frames are inspected for defects in welding. The frames are then prepped for solution heat treating. The solution heat treat process is an extremely proprietary process that stress relieves the frame and weld areas.

- The frames are returned from the solution treated process frozen to delay hardening and enabling us time to straighten the frames. Straightening is performed on a 6,000-pound surface plate.

- The frames are artificially aged to bring the material to its ultimate strength.

 

[mitosis]

I stand by my statement that Magnesium in its natural state is powdery not metallic. From the link you provided, "Magnesium is the 6th most abundant element metal on the surface of the earth at about 2.5% of its composition. However, its high chemical reactivity means that it is notfound in the metallic state in nature."

Either is iron aluminium and most other metals (except gold).

 

[mitosis]

Actually most of the earth's magnesium is derived from magnesium chloride ions in water (seawater, brines, well water etc..)

The stuff in earths crust is is mostly in magnesite and dolomite (plus a few other compounds).

As for powder form, if it is exposed to air it will begin to spontaneously burn (at a very high temperature too). Leading me to belive that if magnesium is mostly in powder form then it will mostly already have burned up. Which is not the case.

Alright enough geek talk. Just wanted to show the fact that both Lokstah and Bacardi were arguing for no reason as the stuff is mostly in liquid form (ie dissovled in water).

Dissolved in water doesn't make it a liquid. Liquid means molten - for magnesium 923 degrees C.

 

[BATMANs]

From what I gather, magnesium and Griffen's Metal Matrix seem to accomplish similar goals:

A comfortable frame that doesn't flex under sprints and climbs.

Steel is alot like this, but has the weight issues to tackle

Titanium is comfy, but flexes.

Aluminum is rigid, but has a harsh ride worthy of chipping ur teeth and rattling ur bones.



The difference between Griffen and magnesium is that Griffen, like titanium has a very long fatigue life, probably exceeding the life of the cyclist.

Further, both titanium and Griffen's bikes ride quality should get better over from usage since the molecules will align in place for an optimal ride experience.

These are 2 reasons why a used titanium or Griffen bike is a dam good deal on ebay. As long as there are no abuses and crashes the frames are usually better used than they are new.

Pure aluminum has a fatigue life.

CF is is a big unknown since the finished material hasn't been around as long as metal. Furthermore, the epoxy material does deteriorate in UV exposure, an irony when many people like the exposed/naked CF look.

Steel has a very long life, but is heavy.

There is a very high-end stainless steel alloy that is used by the military that is suppose to be even better than titanium, but from what I heard, it's a ***** to work with. More so than titanium.

 

[mitosis]

Yeah, well I'm still right. Sure once its refined it is a solid (just like table salt). But when it dissolved in water it is a Mg+ ion and a CL- ion suspended in a liquid.

Bottom line is its found either in water or in rocks naturally (not in pure Mg form). The damn stuff can be refined ito watever form you want as long as you add enough energy to do it.

And apparently for the case of Paketa it is a very nice looking form. Where is BJC and his followup post about his ride. This is the stuff I want to read about. Who cares about powder vs. metal.

Cheers

I think you are a little confused. There is no parallel between the compound NaCl and the element Mg. Elemental magnesium is refined from Mg compounds found in sea water. In a similar way as elemental Na is refined from Na compounds in sea water.

The Mg powder you refer to is just a physical state - and I respectfully suggest you are probably referring to MgO.

Any metal can be ground up into a powder, or melted into shiny malleable ductile conducting lump - including magnesium.

 

[mitosis]

WRONG! Feels like aluminum? What are you smoking? Must be some good ****. Just because Mg is classified as a metal does not mean its properties are inherently similar to aluminum. Here you go. http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/fa/fa06100.pdf
And speaking of natural...




WRONG! "Magnesium is the eighth most abundant natural element on earth". http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/fa/fa06100.pdf
And pointing out that one doesn't mine lumps of pure magnesium metal out of the ground? You said that, not me.




WRONG! pure Mg is flammable in pure oxygen. Air is composed of oxygen, CO2, and other gases. It is not pure enough to warrant total explosion in the atmosphere.
http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/jcesoft/cca/CCA3/MAIN/MAGAIR/SAFETY.HTM

Sorry, but just reading some more of your posts. YOu are very mixed up. Other posters are talking sense and you are ignoring it.

Mg is a metal like dozens of other metals. Sure, it has different properties to other metals (no two metals are the same in all their properties) but the properties that make it a metal also make it useful for many of the uses that other metals are used for.

The fact that it is found as a compound in nature (like most metals) and that it can be a powder is irrelevant.

 

[artmichalek]

The difference between Griffen and magnesium is that Griffen, like titanium has a very long fatigue life, probably exceeding the life of the cyclist.

Further, both titanium and Griffen's bikes ride quality should get better over from usage since the molecules will align in place for an optimal ride experience.

Plenty of titanium bikes have fractured before their owners. I don't know where you dug up that nonsense about molecules aligning, but the crystal structure of either material can't be changed without large amounts of heat or plastic deformataion.

 

[BATMANs]

Plenty of titanium bikes have fractured before their owners. I don't know where you dug up that nonsense about molecules aligning, but the crystal structure of either material can't be changed without large amounts of heat or plastic deformataion.

molecules lining up came from talking to a couple of titanium manu., 1 guy that I met at Lockheed and one that works as a machinist at the Air National Guard for 20+ years at moffet AFB.

None of these folks know each other and each dialogue were seperate incidents.

Fractures of those bike frames a result of crashing?

Results of poor workmanship as in bad welds?

 

[artmichalek]

molecules lining up came from talking to a couple of titanium manu., 1 guy that I met at Lockheed and one that works as a machinist at the Air National Guard for 20+ years at moffet AFB.

None of these folks know each other and each dialogue were seperate incidents.

Fractures of those bike frames a result of crashing?

Results of poor workmanship as in bad welds?

Manufacturers will tell you anything, and cutting metal does not make one a metalurgist. If you have any references from peer reviewed publications that indicate latice structures aligning as a result of mechanical loads below the metal's yield stress, I would certainly love to see them. The very fact that you're talking about "molecules lining up" leads me to believe that you have pretty minimal understanding of materials.

As for titanium fatigue, if you search around here you'll find plenty of examples from reputable manufacturers like Merlin and Litespeed. In fact, Roark Industries which is frighteningly enough a major defense contractor recently had to recall their entire run of bike frames because of fatigue problems. Fatigue failure in bicycle frames of any material is certainly an overhyped issue, but saying that a frame isn't going to break because it's made out of X material and the workmanship is "good" is nonsense.

 

[Insight Driver]

So what? Iron, in it's natural state (which 90% of the time is not in it's nodal metalic form) is as mineral form with names that end in ...ite. Who cares what the natural state is anyway? Iron rusts readily, but add some carbon and silicon to alloy it and you get stainless steel. Go play in somebody else's sandbox, will you?

 

[artmichalek]

Iron rusts readily, but add some carbon and silicon to alloy it and you get stainless steel.

You also need a whole bunch of Nickel and Chromium, but that might be a problem because they aren't metals in their natural state.

 

[mitosis]

So what? Iron, in it's natural state (which 90% of the time is not in it's nodal metalic form) is as mineral form with names that end in ...ite. Who cares what the natural state is anyway? Iron rusts readily, but add some carbon and silicon to alloy it and you get stainless steel. Go play in somebody else's sandbox, will you?

Carbon doesn't stop iron from rusting. It is used to make it harder. Stainless steel is steel that contains more than 10.5% chromium.

 

[BATMANs]

Carbon doesn't stop iron from rusting. It is used to make it harder. Stainless steel is steel that contains more than 10.5% chromium.

Here's some additional info on Griffen's material's other applications:

Wear resistant components: sandblasting nozzles
Refractory industry: as an antioxidant additives in magnesia-carbon bricks (MgO-carbon bricks)
Abrasives: lapping and polishing powders
Armor tiles: High density boron carbide armor tiles, bullet proofing seats of Apache attack helicopters. Mainly produced by hot pressing.
Nuclear industry: neutron absorber, poison pellets. Example: US Patent 4,684,480. Title: Ceramic bonded neutron absorber plates of boron carbide and free carbon
Radiation protection & shielding
Reinforcement: Metal Matrix Composites (MMC), light weight cermets, aluminum matrix boron carbide composite (B4C/Al) used for bicycle frames. Example: US Patent # 4,718,941 "Infiltration processing of boron carbide-, boron- and boride-reactive metal cermets"
Raw material: for producing other boron containing materials such as titanium boride, TiB2. Reaction: 2TiO2 + B4C + 3C = 2TiB2 + 4CO
Solid fuel: HTPB/Boron carbide based propellants for ducted rockets
Boriding agent: Boron carbide is one of the raw materials used in boriding agents. Boriding (Boronizing) is a surface treatment (pack cementation). Boride surface layer(s) is formed after the treatment. The hardness and the wear resistance of the surface are greatly improved.
Welding electrodes: Boron carbide containing welding rods are used to improve the wear resistance of surface

 

[Deanster04]

I just received my new Paketa Magnesium bike and it simply rules! The characteristics of Mg are that of carbon, titanium, steel and aluminum materials rolled into one super light bike. It has the dampening qualities of Carbon but doesn't feel dead; it has the comfort of titanium and steel but is way lighter and it has the agility of aluminum but stronger (due to thicker tube walls). Paketa did a beautiful thing. I just thought I would pass along to fellow cyclists. Later, I'm heading out and doing a century.

Gee, I heard that if you crash a magnesium bike going above 50 kph that the friction of the metal rubbing on the macadam will cause the metal to heat up and start to burn like a flare...gosh is that true?