Pannier Recommendation

Quoted message said:

IME, which are ok when investigating washing machines or whatever, but a
lot of things they just don't really have the experience it seems to
judge things and someone in the know would.

Yes, sorry. I'd forgotten how complicated panniers were in comparison to
washing machines...

Of course, the same chap tests panniers as soon as he's finished the latest
batch of cell phones, dishwashers, ice-cream, Chilean wine etc.

Quoted message said:

I've seen Altura panniers before, and while I would say these are good
value, I don't think they are in anyway the best.
--

Should have said "best buy".

Steve

In message <[email hidden]>, davek
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

chris French said:

IME, which are ok when investigating washing machines or whatever,
but a lot of things they just don't really have the experience it
seems to judge things and someone in the know would.

As a former employee of Which? who has visited the testing centre in
Milton Keynes and witnessed first hand the extreme rigour they apply to
every type of product test they carry out, I beg to differ.

I suspect it's not to do with the rigour, but rather what they test, and
importantly what they think is important. From reading tests of things
which I knew a fair bit about I felt their tests/comclusions lacked a
bit.

This is not to say that they tests are worthless
--
Chris French, Leeds

Lee said:

"David Martin" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 20/9/04 8:39 am, in article [email hidden], "Lee"

Quoted message said:

You will need a rack. Then you will need the bags to hang off the rack. It
is worth getting ones with decent clips, it makes life so much easier than
the cheap 'clips and bungee' variety.

..d

OK, can anyone suggest a good set to get?

Last week, Edinburgh Bicycles was offering a small (20L) karrimor
waterproof pannier for £19.XX a piece.

AC

Steve Almond <[email hidden]> wrote:

: Yes, sorry. I'd forgotten how complicated panniers were in comparison to
: washing machines...

The point is that if you don't cycle regularly and use panniers while
doing it, you won't know what is a good thing to have in a pannier
and what isn't.

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

On Tue, 21 Sep 2004 23:09:57 +0100, "Steve Almond"
<[email hidden]> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

This may well be sacrilege, but Which? found these to be best:
http://www.evanscycles.com/product.jsp?style=10848

I recently bought a pair of these (for pretty much the use that the OP
asked about - to sub for a small back-pack.

They've been absolutely fine.

Quoted message said:

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/?ProductID=5360007178

Steve

"Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi folks

Ive come to the conclusion that the main reason why i sweat like a nun in

a

Quoted message said:

[censored] house whislt riding is basically down to my backpack style bag..

Lots

Quoted message said:

of people have told me to try panniers so I wondered if you guys could
recommend a good set?

Ideally i want to spend as little as possible but need to fit in a shirt,
trousers, bike bits and occasionally shoes. My current bike is the

Raleigh

Quoted message said:

X1 and as far as i can tell it has all the fittings in the right place for

a

Quoted message said:

set!

I had a quick look on wiggle and saw some that would be good - but i wasnt
sure if i needed a rack, or whether they came with one or not. Seeing as
how you chaps and chapessess helped me with my choice of pedals and shoes,

i

Quoted message said:

hoped you could do the same again!?

Cheers

Lee

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK, can anyone suggest a good set to get?

Rear Ortlieb Rollers. The best IMO. I dont know how much but 99EUR a
pair in Germany..seriously waterproof.

Dave

chris French <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

A 'step' up, The Altura Arran, 36L about gbp 40 looks pretty good, not
used them, but their kit is normally reliable.

I use the Altura Arran 36L. They seem to be pretty good. I think I've managed
to get one of them to bounce off once, although I either went over a pothole
or a sleeping policeman at 20+ mph, and I also have a feeling I hadn't put it
on right either. Normally I take the speed ramps flat out and don't even
think about the panniers flying off because they seem so secure. I'm more
likely to worry about an involuntary dismount.

The only real downside is that they are not completely waterproof. Light
rain, short showers seem to be no problem, heavy showers or sustained rain
does seem to be a problem. Perhaps someone could recommend some waterproofing
spray?

--
Chris

Arthur Clune said:

The point is that if you don't cycle regularly and use panniers while
doing it, you won't know what is a good thing to have in a pannier
and what isn't.

Yes, but both you and Chris are assuming that Which? would not go to the
trouble of employing someone who is au fait with the needs of cyclists.
The fact of the matter is that for all their tests they call in people
who are knowledgeable in the relevant field.

You're perfectly entitled to disagree with their findings but it's a
touch arrogant to assume that your disagreement is down to some flaw in
the testing method and superior knowledge on your part.

d.

Monkey Hanger said:

The only real downside is that they are not completely waterproof. Light
rain, short showers seem to be no problem, heavy showers or sustained rain
does seem to be a problem. Perhaps someone could recommend some waterproofing
spray?

The leaky bit are the seams, because of all the stitching holes. You
can try some seam sealant on those, but it only really works well on
fine fabrics like tent fly seams.
I'd do what users of most rucksacks do (which leak for the same reason,
stitch holes through otherwise waterproof fabrics), and use a waterproof
liner if you want to keep the contents dry. A carrier bag should do the
job as long as it isn't "child-safe".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

davek <[email hidden]> wrote:

: [re: Which]
: You're perfectly entitled to disagree with their findings but it's a
: touch arrogant to assume that your disagreement is down to some flaw in
: the testing method and superior knowledge on your part.

Arrogant? Maybe. When *every* time I've seen which test something I
know about I've disagreed with their conclusions I draw some conclusions
of my own.

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

"Arthur Clune" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

davek <[email hidden]> wrote:

: [re: Which]
: You're perfectly entitled to disagree with their findings but it's a
: touch arrogant to assume that your disagreement is down to some flaw in
: the testing method and superior knowledge on your part.

Arrogant? Maybe. When *every* time I've seen which test something I
know about I've disagreed with their conclusions I draw some conclusions
of my own.

Yep, arrogant seems to cover it....

You may well know that your current panniers are the best you've owned. You
may know that your old panniers failed at the seam and were therefore
inferior.
It is unlikely that you have tested the seam strength and waterproofing of
the current range from four or five pannier companies and have then used
them all at length with the help of a group of cyclists for the more
subjective measures.

Thus I would give more weight to the Which findings than to your
conclusions.

Steve

Steve Almond <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Yep, arrogant seems to cover it....

Fair enough. Which's reviews of high-fi gear and computers also have
this affect on me.

I've also always viewed Which as a magazine for middle-aged people
living in nice tidy suburbs. Feel free to call me a snob as well 🙂

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Steve Almond <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Yep, arrogant seems to cover it....

Fair enough. Which's reviews of high-fi gear and computers also have
this affect on me.

I've also always viewed Which as a magazine for middle-aged people
living in nice tidy suburbs. Feel free to call me a snob as well 🙂

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Steve Almond <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Yep, arrogant seems to cover it....

Fair enough. Which's reviews of high-fi gear and computers also have
this affect on me.

I've also always viewed Which as a magazine for middle-aged people
living in nice tidy suburbs. Feel free to call me a snob as well 🙂

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

Arthur Clune said:

Fair enough. Which's reviews of high-fi gear and computers also have
this affect on me.

Which make exactly the same mistake with hi-fi as all the hi-fi mags,
which is that reviews of anything other than quantifiable features for
hi-fi are completely pointless. It'll be your ears doing the listening,
and taking anyone else's word for what they hear is not necessarily
going to get you the right thing.

With panniers you are entering a slightly different realm where other
opinions than your own might actually be useful, but without a
meaningful description of the test parameters just saying X is a Best
Buy is pretty useless.

I like Altura panniers enough that I own a pair of Orkneys. But I use
them in combination with a pair of Ortliebs because one does what the
other doesn't and vice versa. Which is best? Well, that depends on
what you want, exactly.
I use Orkneys, are they really a "worse buy" than Arrans (since Arrans
are a "Best Buy"😉? Not for what I want, which is why I bought the
Orkneys (I wanted more compartmentalised pocket space for my particular
job). No matter how objective one can manage to be in describing
absolute performance, "value for money", which is a notional performance
/ price calculation, is an entirely subjective matter. Which's
readership are unlikely to have the same pannier demands as, say,
VeloVision's, so their subjective ideas will probably be slanted to
their readership while VV's are to theirs. Who's right? Neither, of
course, in any absolute sense.

So, for /my/ uses I'm more in Arthur's camp than the Which one. Which
is not to say the Which coverage is bad, just not directed specifically
at *my* needs as opposed to a Notional Which Subscriber's.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

in message <[email hidden]>, Arthur Clune

(') said:

Steve Almond <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Yep, arrogant seems to cover it....

Fair enough. Which's reviews of high-fi gear and computers also have
this affect on me.

I've also always viewed Which as a magazine for middle-aged people
living in nice tidy suburbs. Feel free to call me a snob as well 🙂

My parents used to subscribe. It's for grown-ups, not the likes of us.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; in faecibus sapiens rheum propagabit

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Arthur Clune

(') said:

Steve Almond <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Yep, arrogant seems to cover it....

Fair enough. Which's reviews of high-fi gear and computers also have
this affect on me.

I've also always viewed Which as a magazine for middle-aged people
living in nice tidy suburbs. Feel free to call me a snob as well 🙂

My parents used to subscribe. It's for grown-ups, not the likes of us.

--

Ahh, it becomes more clear.... I'm probably the age of your parents (but
don't subscribe - I read it at the library).

Steve

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Arthur Clune said:

Fair enough. Which's reviews of high-fi gear and computers also have
this affect on me.

Which make exactly the same mistake with hi-fi as all the hi-fi mags,
which is that reviews of anything other than quantifiable features for
hi-fi are completely pointless. It'll be your ears doing the listening,
and taking anyone else's word for what they hear is not necessarily
going to get you the right thing.

With panniers you are entering a slightly different realm where other
opinions than your own might actually be useful, but without a
meaningful description of the test parameters just saying X is a Best
Buy is pretty useless.

I think the parameeters are reasonably described in Which?.

Quoted message said:

I like Altura panniers enough that I own a pair of Orkneys. But I use
them in combination with a pair of Ortliebs because one does what the
other doesn't and vice versa. Which is best? Well, that depends on
what you want, exactly.
I use Orkneys, are they really a "worse buy" than Arrans (since Arrans
are a "Best Buy"😉?

Not surprisingly (if you want meaninglful tests - remember the cyclists
using them for a reasonalble period) they don't test all paniers, and didn't
test Orkneys.
Which? are quite clear - they test (say) half a dozen items and recommend a
Best Buy from amonst them. No pretense of testing everything available.

Quoted message said:

Orkneys (I wanted more compartmentalised pocket space for my particular
job). No matter how objective one can manage to be in describing
absolute performance, "value for money", which is a notional performance
/ price calculation, is an entirely subjective matter. Which's
readership are unlikely to have the same pannier demands as, say,
VeloVision's, so their subjective ideas will probably be slanted to
their readership while VV's are to theirs. Who's right? Neither, of
course, in any absolute sense.

You, also, make the assumption that Which? is a small group of folk who test
panniers, TVs, Bank accounts, fizzy drinks, car tyres etc.

Quoted message said:

So, for /my/ uses I'm more in Arthur's camp than the Which one. Which
is not to say the Which coverage is bad, just not directed specifically
at *my* needs as opposed to a Notional Which Subscriber's.

maybe not for you (or any of the well informed members of this group), but
for the average cyclist faced with (realistically) 4 or 5 pannier sets in
the local bike shop, I think the Which? report is an excellent place to
start.

Steve

Steve Almond said:

I think the parameeters are reasonably described in Which?.

But you didn't pass them on, as if just pointing out they were a Which
BB is all you need to know.

Quoted message said:

Not surprisingly (if you want meaninglful tests - remember the cyclists
using them for a reasonalble period) they don't test all paniers, and didn't
test Orkneys.
Which? are quite clear - they test (say) half a dozen items and recommend a
Best Buy from amonst them. No pretense of testing everything available.

So they can't say with any confidence that they are genuinely a "Best
Buy", in other words. I'd say that point of information reinforces
Arthur's view rather than detracts from it.

Quoted message said:

You, also, make the assumption that Which? is a small group of folk who test
panniers, TVs, Bank accounts, fizzy drinks, car tyres etc.

No I don't, you just make the assumption that I do. I said what I said
because I would be happier to recommend Arrans in the context of
occasional cyclists than so-called "serious" ones, to whom I would more
probably recommend Skyes, Orkneys, Super Cs, Ortliebs etc. Just because
it was cyclists doing tests doesn't mean the editor isn't working to
his/her own readership, rather than C+'s, and a "Best Buy" that many
users here choose to buy upmarket from demonstrates that fairly well.

Quoted message said:

maybe not for you (or any of the well informed members of this group), but
for the average cyclist faced with (realistically) 4 or 5 pannier sets in
the local bike shop, I think the Which? report is an excellent place to
start.

Well fine, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily an excellent place to
finish, which your previous dismissals of criticisms rather implied.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Steve Almond said:

"Simon Brooke" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Arthur Clune

(') said:

Steve Almond <[email hidden]> wrote:
: Yep, arrogant seems to cover it....

Fair enough. Which's reviews of high-fi gear and computers also have
this affect on me.

I've also always viewed Which as a magazine for middle-aged people
living in nice tidy suburbs. Feel free to call me a snob as well 🙂

My parents used to subscribe. It's for grown-ups, not the likes of us.

Ahh, it becomes more clear.... I'm probably the age of your parents (but
don't subscribe - I read it at the library).

I doubt you're the age of Simon's parents.

My grandmother used to have a subsrciption. I guess she'd be about the
age of Simon's parents. She got it on their fill out a Direct Debit
for a free gift hook, and never really realised she was paying for
it. Highly ethical retailing, if you ask me.

A