Panniers -- Arkel RT-60 versus Radical Designs Allfa Bags (Large)

[NYC XYZ]

Which do y'all think is better?

I mean, the RT-60 has a 30-liter capacity per bag, compared to the
Large Allfa's 35 each...but the RT-60 has a whole bunch of features,
whereas the Large Allfa seems like just a big banana bag...but the
Large Allfa seems more areodynamic, and seems to hug an SWB like the HP
Velo SMGTe better -- certainly seems a more "logical" design,
contributing to stable handling of the 'bent...but the RT-60 is a whole
hundred bucks more expensive....

The Arkel RT-40 mid-ship low-rider bags also look very interesting!
Anyone with experience of those, or the Arkel Tailer Rider trunk bag
(lays flat on the rear rack) or The Bug backpack pannier
("convertible")?

I'll also want an Arkel bike cover, too...wow, they seem to do it all!

 

[rdclark]

NYC XYZ wrote:
> Which do y'all think is better?

Beats me. All I know is my 5-year old Arkels are good as new (a
no-longer-made small lowrider model) after lots of daily abuse in all
weather, and lots of swapping between the front of one bike and the
back of another. My 3-year old Arkel bike briefcase is also in perfect
condition, although it needed a new buckle (provided free, promptly, by
Arkel). So I don't hesitate to recommend Arkel as a source.

My criteria for the panniers were "what are the biggest bags I'm
willing to commute with?" and "which ones will work best when I only
need one?" The idea wasn't to carry as much as possible, but to
accommodate those times that you have to carry stuff on the commute
that doesn't fit in the rack trunk.

RichC

 

[Peter Clinch]

NYC XYZ wrote:
> Which do y'all think is better?

Not seen the Arkels up close, but why have you ruled out Ortliebs
and others? Their fixings are well and away the easiest to use on
any panniers I've ever used, the construction is superb, and
they're 100% waterproof (reviews of Arkel panniers I've seen
suggest that the plethora of seams means they leak like a sieve).
Also the case that the SMGT's racks appear to have been originally
designed with Ortliebs in mind.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Mark Leuck]

I've got the Alpha since its about all that will fit on a Baron, it works
very well and is pretty much just a big banana bag

"NYC XYZ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Which do y'all think is better?
>
> I mean, the RT-60 has a 30-liter capacity per bag, compared to the
> Large Allfa's 35 each...but the RT-60 has a whole bunch of features,
> whereas the Large Allfa seems like just a big banana bag...but the
> Large Allfa seems more areodynamic, and seems to hug an SWB like the HP
> Velo SMGTe better -- certainly seems a more "logical" design,
> contributing to stable handling of the 'bent...but the RT-60 is a whole
> hundred bucks more expensive....
>
> The Arkel RT-40 mid-ship low-rider bags also look very interesting!
> Anyone with experience of those, or the Arkel Tailer Rider trunk bag
> (lays flat on the rear rack) or The Bug backpack pannier
> ("convertible")?
>
> I'll also want an Arkel bike cover, too...wow, they seem to do it all!
>

 

[NYC XYZ]

Mark Leuck wrote:
> I've got the Alpha since its about all that will fit on a Baron, it works
> very well and is pretty much just a big banana bag


I'm going nuts here...I want them all!

I can see how different situations would prefer one over the
other...your basic big banana bag is great for stuff like clothes
(laundry!), tents and such...that's the bag I'd take on one of these
multi-day camping bike tours.

But I can see everyday urban commute uses for the other bags, and
one-day 60 mile trips...different gear for different occasions.

I'm going to get a fairly basic LBS bag that seems pretty cool to start
with...it's for the rear rack, not 'bent-specific but it's one of them
models which straddles the rack with two saddle bags on either side --
and on top is a nice zipper-detachable backpack! It also comes with a
rain cover...$83...I can see stuff shoes and office attire as well as a
~15-lb. NY Kryptonite chain and lock...only wonder about weight and
weight distribution (stability)!

 

[NYC XYZ]

You make very good points, as usual...but the Arkels do seem more
interesting to me...the tail rider bag...the RT-40 midship 'bent
bags...the RT-60 rear 'bent bags...and their Bug rear bag-cum-backpack!
Just really interesting designs...the Ortliebs look like these boxes,
that's all. I know they have been around for ever and folks swear by
them (a few do swear at them, too), but the Arkels just seem much more
interesting from a design perspective!

They're also Vermonters...great liberal State, but with the top ten
highest military enlistment rates in the Union...and they have a 30-day
100% satisfaction guaranteed return policy...it's actually too easy to
spend money with them; even as I type I'm fighting the temptation to
order all their bags with a bike cover to boot!



Peter Clinch wrote:
>
>
> Not seen the Arkels up close, but why have you ruled out Ortliebs
> and others? Their fixings are well and away the easiest to use on
> any panniers I've ever used, the construction is superb, and
> they're 100% waterproof (reviews of Arkel panniers I've seen
> suggest that the plethora of seams means they leak like a sieve).
> Also the case that the SMGT's racks appear to have been originally
> designed with Ortliebs in mind.
>
> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[NYC XYZ]

rdclark wrote:
> NYC XYZ wrote:
> > Which do y'all think is better?
>
> Beats me. All I know is my 5-year old Arkels are good as new (a
> no-longer-made small lowrider model) after lots of daily abuse in all
> weather, and lots of swapping between the front of one bike and the
> back of another. My 3-year old Arkel bike briefcase is also in perfect
> condition, although it needed a new buckle (provided free, promptly, by
> Arkel). So I don't hesitate to recommend Arkel as a source.

I was already sold on the bags, but, moreover, I'm a sucker for any
company that has a 30-day 100% satisfaction guaranteed return policy --
in addition to a lifetime no-receipt-needed repair or replacement of
defect policy!

> My criteria for the panniers were "what are the biggest bags I'm
> willing to commute with?" and "which ones will work best when I only
> need one?" The idea wasn't to carry as much as possible, but to
> accommodate those times that you have to carry stuff on the commute
> that doesn't fit in the rack trunk.

That's where I'd started out, but after some research, I'm just too
smitten by all the possible situations suggested by all the different
designs out there! So I think I'm going to buy all of them, only piece
by piece, starting with the one I'm most likely to use for everyday
commuting, which is actually some anonymous cheap-looking (though
expensive!) pannier at the LBS that straddles the rear rack with saddle
bags on either end with a zipper-detachable backpack on top of it all!
I can easily imagine office attire, gym clothes, a ~15-lb. NY
Kryptonite chain and lock, and a book or two.

> RichC

 

[Jonathan Kaplan]

The Arkel mounts are too small for the oversize tubing on the HPV GTE. I
tried to buy their mounts to retrofit my Bunyip Recumbent Panniers from my
former Trimuter Trike. I ended up returning them and purchasing come
Carradice Mounts that fit. If you are looking for rectangular recumbent type
bags, check out the Carradice Recumbent bags at Calhoun Cycles. Also, the
Ortleibs are supposed to fit.

 

[amakyonin]

NYC XYZ wrote:
> They're also Vermonters...great liberal State, but with the top ten
> highest military enlistment rates in the Union...and they have a 30-day

Actually, Arkel is a Canadian company based in Lennoxville Quebec. They
have a maple leaf tag prominently positioned on all their bags. If you
can get over your anti-Canadian bigotry, though, you will find that
they do make great bags.

 

[Peter Clinch]

NYC XYZ wrote:
> You make very good points, as usual...but the Arkels do seem more
> interesting to me...

Well, if you want a novelty then great, but if you want a
straightforward working piece of kit then "interesting" is not
really a priority. They're the easiest panniers to use and they're
superbly built, with "interest" coming in a mounting system that's
probably the best in the industry. Plus you can use them on your
DF, and if you get a compact as planned on that as well.

> They're also Vermonters...

Only if they're VTers who moved over the border.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[NYC XYZ]

amakyonin wrote:
>
>
> Actually, Arkel is a Canadian company based in Lennoxville Quebec. They
> have a maple leaf tag prominently positioned on all their bags. If you
> can get over your anti-Canadian bigotry, though, you will find that
> they do make great bags.

What anti-Canadian bigotry??????

I admit to looking askance at the separatist Quebecois.

 

[Peter Clinch]

Peter Clinch wrote:
> NYC XYZ wrote:
>> You make very good points, as usual...but the Arkels do seem more
>> interesting to me...
>
> Well, if you want a novelty then great, but if you want a
> straightforward working piece of kit then "interesting" is not really a
> priority.

Ah yes, just came across a Robert Fripp quote that seems relevant here.

"Simple is the hardest thing to discharge superbly... so keep it
complicated!"

Ortliebs are as simple as they can be to do their job as well as
possible and be as convenient as possible to the user. Arkels are,
very much by their own admission in the company name,
"overdesigns". If those extra whistles and bells are something
you'll actually use and take advantage of then that's all very
well, but if they merely serve to be "interesting" then it's extra
money on extra weight and extra stuff to get in the way.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[[email protected]]

amakyonin wrote:
> NYC XYZ wrote:
> > They're also Vermonters...great liberal State, but with the top ten
> > highest military enlistment rates in the Union...and they have a 30-day
>
> Actually, Arkel is a Canadian company based in Lennoxville Quebec. They
> have a maple leaf tag prominently positioned on all their bags. If you
> can get over your anti-Canadian bigotry, though, you will find that
> they do make great bags.

I have never used Arkel but the design of at least one of the bags is
almost identical to the Montagnard bags that I bought 15 years ago.
Arkel apparently was founded by a former employee of Montagnard after
Montagnard went out of business .

Based on my experience with the Montagnard bags I would recommend the
design. I should mention that I have used the bags almost daily for 15
years and they are still in pretty good condition.
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

 

[[email protected]]

I have to say I am not impressed by Arkek bags. They have too many not
very useful pockets.

It may be that my intended use is different than others in the group. I
buy panniers for self contained touring. My problem is never where am I
going to put that little item so that it is handy. I want fast and easy
load and unload plus a place to put the things I bought for the night
at the campsite.

I have had great experience with Jandd Mountaineering bags,
http://www.jandd.com/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=FMEP . They are big enough
to carry way more than you should be carrying and have a nice set of
cinching straps and an expandable top. I don't use rain covers but
keep items in waterproof bags and have good experience in Atlantic
Canada.

I bought the set I have now for my trip to Newfoundland and Labrador in
1999 and used them for 5 five or more trips a year since. Last year in
Croatia they looked fine. This year I lubed the zippers and they still
look good but a little faded.

Roland

Dover, NH

 

[Jack]

I've used Jandd, Madden, Ortlieb, Eclipse and Cannondale panniers, but
not Arkel. All of the high-end bags have their supporters, so the
suggestion as to which bag is best seems to depend on who you ask.
Jandd and Arkel seem a bit "fussy" to me, with innumerable pockets,
zippers, pulls, pouches, straps and cinches that seem to be of
questionable utility -- except to each company's marketing department.
All those "features" add weight, complexity and become possible points
of failure. Ortlieb has the best mounting system in the industry, but
no pockets or dividers at all. If you're Ok with just a giant sack
(with a great mounting system), and many folks are, it's hard to go
wrong with Ortlieb's. Madden's bags sort of split the difference
between the Arkel/Jandd many-pocket approach and the Ortlieb giant-sack
approach -- with just a couple of largish pockets for easy access to
frequently used items. After trying lots of bags, I've settled on
Ortlieb and Madden as my favs. As noted above though, there are lots
fo great bags out there. Perhaps your plan to buy them all is the best
approach.

-Jack

 

[NYC XYZ]

It isn't just about "novelty," as you allege -- with a million-and-one
things to schlepp along, I think I would like compartments and
different pockets on the bag: hence the "interest," as I say.

If (when?) I do some year-long touring across Australia or China or
something, then I'll consider Ortliebs for their reputation. I am
attracted by the idea of their being waterproof (though not submersibly
so) due to the 3D high-frequency welding (whatever that is) on their
seams, but I just don't see them on my 'bent yet.

....

Say, did you know a lot of the bolts and other such hardware on an
SMGTe is proprietary? Or maybe this is the case with bicycles in
general, recumbent or not. I was in need of the bushings/mounting
hardware for my DT Swiss SSD 225 air shock (long story), but not even
Hostel Shoppe (largest 'bent dealer in the world, they say!) knew where
to get them or what to call them! HP Velo was no help, either --
typical Central/East European "cool," I think, akin to the notion of
"Oriental inscrutability" -- and referred me to the air shock
manufacturer, DT Swiss, whose US office informed me that the bushings
were of necessity particular to the bike-maker, seeing how each frame,
etc., could be so different....

Now I'm gonna have a bike shop in my apartment, with screws and bolts
and whatnot, just in case I'm ever in a bind like this again! Imagine,
the whole damned thing out of order on account of four lousy bushings
that probably cost US$0.08...luckily, I should have my bushings back by
Thursday or Friday, in time for the big annual City-wide tour Sunday!



Peter Clinch wrote:
>
>
> Ah yes, just came across a Robert Fripp quote that seems relevant here.
>
> "Simple is the hardest thing to discharge superbly... so keep it
> complicated!"
>
> Ortliebs are as simple as they can be to do their job as well as
> possible and be as convenient as possible to the user. Arkels are,
> very much by their own admission in the company name,
> "overdesigns". If those extra whistles and bells are something
> you'll actually use and take advantage of then that's all very
> well, but if they merely serve to be "interesting" then it's extra
> money on extra weight and extra stuff to get in the way.
>
> Pete.
> --
> Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
> Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
> Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
> net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[NYC XYZ]

Jonathan Kaplan wrote:
> The Arkel mounts are too small for the oversize tubing on the HPV GTE. I
> tried to buy their mounts to retrofit my Bunyip Recumbent Panniers from my
> former Trimuter Trike. I ended up returning them and purchasing come
> Carradice Mounts that fit. If you are looking for rectangular recumbent type
> bags, check out the Carradice Recumbent bags at Calhoun Cycles. Also, the
> Ortleibs are supposed to fit.


Goodness, that's terrible news!

But, interestingly, their RT-60 webpage shows a photo of an HP Velo
Scorpion with a pair mounted on the rear rack -- which I take to be
what we have on our SMGTe!

Well, I've ordered a pair of the RT-40s in the meantime...hope it works
out!

 

[Peter Clinch]

Jonathan Kaplan wrote:
> The Arkel mounts are too small for the oversize tubing on the HPV GTE. I
> tried to buy their mounts to retrofit my Bunyip Recumbent Panniers from my
> former Trimuter Trike. I ended up returning them and purchasing come
> Carradice Mounts that fit. If you are looking for rectangular recumbent type
> bags, check out the Carradice Recumbent bags at Calhoun Cycles. Also, the
> Ortleibs are supposed to fit.

The Ortliebs do. Odd about the Carradice... I couldn't use my old
Carradice Overlanders because the hooks would only take up to 11mm
tubing so that's how I ended up with Ortliebs.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

NYC XYZ wrote:
> It isn't just about "novelty," as you allege -- with a million-and-one
> things to schlepp along, I think I would like compartments and
> different pockets on the bag: hence the "interest," as I say.

It's very easy to compartmentalise an open bag using stuffsacks,
but not so easy to change use on one where it's done for you.
(Ortlieb sell inserts and pockets as extras if you want them, btw).

My second pair of panniers are Alturas with loads of pockets. I
use those for day riding, but the Ortliebs are better for tours
IME. But the thing about the Alturas is they're smaller lowrider
types, nice for day tours, and not full size things where I'm
carting around excessive baggage. The excess of pockets are really
at the point of over-egging the pudding, to be honest, and I would
/not/ replace like with like. But I'd like a heel pocket, as
that's where I stow my water bottles for easy reach.

Arkel's top of the range DF panniers were reviewed in "Cycle", the
rag of the Cycle Touring Club in the UK a couple of years ago. The
reviewer noted the design was "a place for everything, and
everything in its place", but since those places didn't equate to
where *he* wanted to put them it was a vice rather than a virtue.
He also found they leaked terribly with all the seams, and having
given theme a thorough slating he sent them back and happily
returned to his Ortliebs...

> Say, did you know a lot of the bolts and other such hardware on an
> SMGTe is proprietary?
> Or maybe this is the case with bicycles in
> general, recumbent or not. I was in need of the bushings/mounting
> hardware for my DT Swiss SSD 225 air shock (long story)

While a lot of bike parts are standard, fitting onto standard sized
places, mountings for shocks are (AFAICT) an exception. Anything
else aside from obvious stuff like the seat and mountings are
standard, so the brake bosses are standard and fit in standard
places, the braze-one all take M5 threads, the wheel dropouts and
derailleur mountings are where you'd expect in what size, and so on.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Peter Clinch]

Peter Clinch wrote:

> The Ortliebs do. Odd about the Carradice... I couldn't use my old
> Carradice Overlanders because the hooks would only take up to 11mm
> tubing so that's how I ended up with Ortliebs.

Ah, I see thy've changed the "C System" hooks since I replaced
mine, and they now do up to 13mm. That's good, I like Carradice stuff.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/