This weeks marks the 2nd anniversary of the death of Marco Pantani,
TDF 1998 and Giro 1998 winner.
May MP rest in peace.
TDF 1998 and Giro 1998 winner.
May MP rest in peace.
Pantani : 2nd Anniversary
- Thread starter limerickman
- Start date
I watched a video of him(TDF 2000) yesterday, great climber, great style and LA had nothing to laugh with the attacks of Pantani...limerickman said:
cyclingheroes said:
Pantani was out on his own as a climber.
I've a couple of fond memories of Marco.
At the prologue in Dublin in 1998, I watched him as he languidly went through the
motions of the prologue finishing 161st if I recall correctly.
We were wondering if he was tired after his Giro win!
So to see him standing there on the podium in Paris three weeks later
was surreal.
Who can forget his exploding the field in the 1995 TDF?
Back to back mountain wins.
Jalabert/Indurain/Riis/Chiapucci/Zulle/LeBlanc, all failed to catch Marco.
His ability to climb was unmatched, I think.
The really great climbers Bahamontes and Gaul, both said that he was
in the very top notch.
Best memory of all - the stage at les Deux Alp's : Ullrich bonking and Pantani
getting away with that other tragic climber Jose Maria Jimenez of Banesto.
At the finish of the stage, Pantani was interviewed under a bright light.
The next day, jan and Marco battled it out.
Jan did a great ride but he couldn't shake him.
Pantani let Ullrich cross the line and as he passed him he stuck out his
hand to shake Jans hand.
Superb.
limerickman said:
Actually he finished 181st!
He really was a great climber, to bad things ended the way they did. This seems like a good time to start reading "Man on the Run: The Life And Death of Marco Pantani" which I have here somewhere.
While his reputation is still under attack by the likes of Candido Cannavo of Gazzetta dello Sport. The evidence mounts for the systemic blood doping and performance enhancers used by the Juventus soccer club in the late 90's. But this topic is off limits, it is much easier to attack the blacklisted Pantani, who in death perhaps is spared the continued affrontery. Conversely look at how the American media defends one of their own in the following article:limerickman said:
[Bad rule puts Randall in a no-win situation
CRAIG MEDRED
COMMENT
Published: February 12, 2006
Last Modified: February 12, 2006 at 04:16 AM
Thanks to a rule left from the days when the drug police of world sport were unable to detect performance-boosting erythropoietin -- known worldwide to endurance athletes simply as EPO -- Anchorage Olympic skier Kikkan Randall today finds herself tainted by the smear of doping.
There is no evidence whatsoever that she did anything unethical or illegal, but that doesn't matter. Her five-day suspension from the Olympics for "safety reasons'' because of an elevated hemoglobin level is enough to convict her in the minds of some.
Forget the fact she had been altitude training, which is proven to boost hemoglobin levels. Forget the fact she might have been dehydrated, which is known to increase hemoglobin concentration in the blood. Forget, most of all, the fact that the hemoglobin standard itself is arbitrary.
Where there is smoke, there must be fire, right?
Look, I don't know if Kikkan Randall has been doping. In sport today, absolutely anything is possible.
What I do know, however, is that the rule that has tainted Randall is a bad rule. Her Anchorage coach, Jim Galanes, and I don't agree on a lot of things, but on this one we're in total agreement -- and we're not alone. Exercise physiologists from all around the globe have questioned this arbitrary and today unnecessary standard devised to catch people who might -- and the key word is "might'' -- be cheating.
Here, in essence, is the justification:
"The International Skiing Federation does not want to share the black cloud of sudden death attributed to EPO use that hangs over professional cycling,'' writes Stephen Seiler on www.sportsci.org. "Yet if safety is the key, then why is it 'unsafe' for women to have hemoglobin levels of 16.5, a value commonly observed in altitude-trained men, but 'safe' for a male to come in at 18.4?''
Cycling, of course, is where this entire rule-making mess originated. EPO, a drug which increases the amount of oxygen the blood can carry, was rumored to be in use there by the mid-1970s. The U.S. Olympic cycling team was suspected of using it in 1984, when it won nine Olympic medals in Los Angeles, including four golds.
Prior to that success, the team hadn't won a medal since 1912.
Better cycling through chemistry? It was certainly a possibility. EPO had by then been clearly demonstrated to improve performances, but there was a downside.
"Within the first four years of EPO's introduction,'' wrote David Martin and other researchers at the Australian Institute of Sport in a 1997 paper, "this synthetic hormone was suggested to have caused over 17 athlete deaths. Some news reports are now suggesting that over 20 competitive cyclists have died as a result of EPO administration.''
Basically, what appears to have happened -- particularly in races staged in warm temperatures -- was that the riders' blood got so thick they couldn't pump it through their veins, and they died of an embolism.
To avoid such deaths, the Union Cyliste International at a 1997 meeting established a 50 percent hematocrit level for racers.
Hemotacrit measures the percentage of red blood cells in the blood. A 50 percent hematocrit level translates to a hemoglobin level of about 16.5 grams per deciliter (g/dl).
The Federation International de Ski followed Union Cyliste International by setting its own standard for hemaglobin levels -- 16.5 g/dl for women and 18.5 g/dl for men.
Though these were both supposed to be "safety'' levels, the ski rules were clearly aimed at leveling the playing field. Thus, the standard for women was set at 16.5 g/dl to reflect the fact the average woman has a significantly lower hemoglobin level than the average man -- even though some competitive women skiers had shown hemoglobin levels equal that of men.
Everyone in skiing knew these standards weren't exactly fair, but they knew just as well that the sport had a serious doping problem.
"Beginning at the nordic world championships in 1989 and continuing through to the (world championships) in Trondheim, Norway in Febuary 1996,'' Seiler writes, "the FIS began randomly drawing blood samples from male and female skiers to monitor hemoglobin levels.
"In '89, the average values were actually just under normal population levels (15 g/dl). By 1996, they were far over normal levels. The athletes could have pointed defensively to better use of altitude training -- except for a more alarming finding. Some individual measurements revealed hemoglobin concentrations of 19 g/dl, even in females."
There wasn't a doctor or exercise physiologist anywhere willing to argue that was natural. Everyone knew it was unnatural. It was the EPO, a drug that originally had been developed to help people with diminished respiratory capacity.
Unfortunately, EPO was, at that time, undetectable.
So it made some sense to hold people out of competition if they had elevated hematocrit or hemoglobin levels. It might not have been perfectly fair, but it was as fair as cycling and skiing officials could get at the time.
Now, flash forward to 2006.
EPO is no longer an undetectable drug.
The drug police managed to catch the Finish ski team using it in 2001, although that was done mainly by testing for a drug the Finns were also using to increase plasma levels to drive the hemoglobin g/dl levels below acceptable limits.
Since then, drug testing has gotten even better. The International Olympic Committee says it can now detect EPO, and two years ago caught Irish 10,000-meter runner Cathal Lombard, who was banned from the 2004 Athens Summer Games. Lombard, who has since admitted to using EPO, was able to take a stunning two minutes off his best 10,000-meter time. Others have been too.
And the World Anti-Doping Agency even claims it can detect blood doping, which is what got cyclist Tyler Hamilton in trouble. Blood doping involves blood transfusions to add more oxygen-carrying red blood cells to the body. Some athletes have been accused of drawing their own blood prior to competitions, storing it, and then reinjecting it as an aerobic booster shot.
The science for detecting blood-doping and EPO is imperfect. Hamilton is still challenging the charges against him, saying he has been unfairly accused. And at least one athlete convicted of using EPO later proved he had elevated, natural production of erythropoieten that confused the test.
Still, given that there are these tests out there now, there is no longer any need for hemaglobin testing that can smear the innocent with the taint of doping just as well as it can flag the guilty.
The latter should be caught and banned for years for using whatever illegal drug they're using, not simply suspended five days.
And the innocent shouldn't find themselves in the never-neverland of rumor and innuendo, which is where Kikkan Randall now finds herself.
Is she a doper?
I honestly don't know, but there's no reason to believe she is.
They could all be doping. Then again, they could all be making better use of new altitude-training techniques that have also been shown to significantly boost hemoglobin.
Standards like the one the FIS has imposed, sadly, don't serve to make the distinction between those two possibilities clear. They just serve to cast a suspicion of guilt over everyone, spreading the "first hint of scandal'' as some in the media have reported.
The sad thing is, someone should have seen this coming. Where, it has to be asked, were the medical personnel with the U.S. Ski Team?
Randall says she knew her hemoglobin levels were high after altitude training in Switzerland. She says she might have been dehydrated on the day the test was taken, and that, too, could contribute to raising her hemoglobin levels.
So why didn't the ski team -- knowing that hemaglobin tests are conducted at the Olympics -- take immediate and necessary steps to get Randall's levels down to acceptable levels?
And while I'm asking questions, how about this one: What were Randall and her coaches doing allowing her to get dehyrdated so close to an important competition, anyway? Even amateur athletes and coaches know better than that.]
Notice after 5 days, the athlete can re-enter anyways, with no damage to reputation. Remember Pantani was stopped during the 1999 giro for a high hematocrit on a single sample, under the protest of other procedural violations as well. Additonaly his hemoglobin would not have been outside todays range, but this two pronged test was not in effect at that time. Thus to take him out with todays test criteria, they would have also have to alter his hemoglobin count.
Jan speaks very highly of Pantani...... in fact named Marco in his top 5 of alltime greats.....limerickman said:
whiteboytrash said:
Jan Ullrich does speak very highly of Marco Pantani.
On the day he died I went i to the Ullrich website - and his website had a picture of Jan in black and white. Stoney-faced looking directly in to the camera.
The words he wrote that day were "I am too shocked and too saddened at the death of Marco Pantani. I ask all my fans not to speculate about all of the
rumours and the attacks on Marco Pantani and his reputation.
I want my fans to remember him and to remember his family at this terrible time."
Nice words.
ilpirata, it's laughable isn't it - the writer of that article finds it perfectly acceptable that a woman should have a haematocrit of 50%+ - the normal haematocrit level for women is 37 - 47%.
While I'm more convinced than not that Pantani was doping, if your a lover of cycling you couldn't help but admire his style and panache - EPO might make you a more efficient rider but it doesn't make you an exciting one and Pantani was surely one of the most exciting riders I've been privileged to watch race.
While I'm more convinced than not that Pantani was doping, if your a lover of cycling you couldn't help but admire his style and panache - EPO might make you a more efficient rider but it doesn't make you an exciting one and Pantani was surely one of the most exciting riders I've been privileged to watch race.
limerickman said:
I have to say I don't remember that, and I don't want to stir up a pot of shite here, but what made that gesture superb and the LA-MP gesture insulting?
Because Pantani didn it the way a true champion does - by simply letting a great rival take the victory (Ullrich did a great ride that day) and keeping a dignified silence about it - not then giving a press conference saying how disappointed they were that their magnaimous gesture wasn't taken in the spirit it was intended.
Lance Armstrong of course.DiabloScott said:
In the book '100 Years of Cycling', there is a picture of Marco sitting on some cobble stones with other riders waiting for the start of the stage. One of the only pictures I have seen of him were he looks so calm and relaxed, very good picture.
DiabloScott said:
I have it on tape so it did happen : Vizille/Albertville stage
What made the gesture superb?
The preceding stage in part.
And the fact that having bonked - Ullrich came out the very next day and fought hard to try to get away from MP.
For the last 3 kms - they rode together, alternating at the front.
With a word or two exchanged.
That added to the warmth of the gesture at the end of that stage.
Funny you mention it - I was watching the 2000 TDF the other evening. Marco is the only rider I've seen to drop LA on a climb when LA was trying, and he did it more than once. The man could climb like none other, and he did it with a sense of style.
The 2000 Tour is a fun one to watch. What a loss to all of us, that he was not competing in the years after that Tour. A mountain stage with Marco in it was not going to be boring.
The 2000 Tour is a fun one to watch. What a loss to all of us, that he was not competing in the years after that Tour. A mountain stage with Marco in it was not going to be boring.
cyclingheroes said:
Valverde is a great talent. I hope he does well this year. He certainly was impressive that day at courchevel. But let's also be clear, he won by a handful of seconds over Armstrong. Then because of the strains of that day, was constrained to drop out of the tour. Armstrong was a minute and a half or so back of Pantani, for courcheval 2000. And the Pantani of 2000 was not as good as seen in previous tours.lwedge said:
JohnO said:
Marco did get away from Lance on Courchevel in 2000...(Valverde didnt, he outsprinted Lance) but also Lance didnt need to close the gap that Roberto Heras let open (Heras and Botero were in the group and Lance went to the back). But in fairness it looked like Marco rode away. Big deal. Lance's job was to conserve his lead, conserve energy and win the TdF. Not chase every sh#tweasal attack from a demented self-styled-so-called "pirate" doper.
But lets remember that Marco was stirring things up on purpose and went out and intentionally attacked on all the early climbs the next day, forcing Lance to chase (because Lance had gotten advice that Pantani could be on any PEDs and could do some crazy escape like he did to Ullrich on Les Deux Alpes in 1997 when he attacked 2 mountains and 60 km out solo, dropping everyone for 5 minutes Ulle for 9 minutes) SO yes he attacked like crazy the next day and then lost 15 minutes that same stage and withdrew from the race due to diarrhea--a side effect of EPO.
So, yes lets keep it all in perspective, Lance probably didnt want to give Marco the satisfaction and let him go on Courchevel. Is that the same as getting dropped when the race is in balance? No.
It was Marco who went to the press and said Lance's letting him win on Ventoux was an insult etc etc. The words I believe were all he wanted was "un po di rispetto." Armstrongs getsure was "excessive" it "stuck in his craw." What a jerk. He threw down first. An early sign of Marco's paranoia and instability which later led to his death. Lance was, for once, being nice.
Har Har, never again, just ask Simeoni or Sheryl.
In the 1995 TDF at Alpe D'Huez, I was fortunate enough to be at harpin 19 at
D'Huez when MP won that legendary stage.
Pantani (after about 160kms riding) had launched a ferocious attack coming up toward D'Huez.
Jalabert, LeBlanc, Escartin, Virenque, Tonkov, Rominger, all lost contact with a very elite leading group of Pantani/Indurain/Zulle and if memory serves me right, Laurent Madouas.
Indurain and Zulle and Riis were barely able to keep Marco in their sights as I listened on the radio - en francaise - to the commentator saying that Pantani launched another devastating attack at hairpin 3.
As they came up the mountain Pantani started to move away, from first Madouas and then Zulle.
(no mean climbers either)
Indurain then started to drop and I can still see Marco on the drops literally spinning by us as he pulled away from the elite bunch.
It was simply magnificent to watch.
MP rocking slightly - hands on the top bars pedalling like a ballerina.
Magnificent.
Then about 45 seconds later Indurain - lungs visibly inhaling and exhaling under his sweat soaked jersey - pounding up the climb trying to minimise time lost to MP.
Indurain was on the drops with a grimace across his usually stoic face.
All the while the Tifosi were screaming "Forza Marco!" while the Dutch stood shell shocked at the side of the road.
Eventuall Riis and the Zulle and the rest of the field (Museeuw driving the groupeto) went by.
But that day, MP was superb.
I never saw BigMig having to work as hard.
What a privilege to be there.
D'Huez when MP won that legendary stage.
Pantani (after about 160kms riding) had launched a ferocious attack coming up toward D'Huez.
Jalabert, LeBlanc, Escartin, Virenque, Tonkov, Rominger, all lost contact with a very elite leading group of Pantani/Indurain/Zulle and if memory serves me right, Laurent Madouas.
Indurain and Zulle and Riis were barely able to keep Marco in their sights as I listened on the radio - en francaise - to the commentator saying that Pantani launched another devastating attack at hairpin 3.
As they came up the mountain Pantani started to move away, from first Madouas and then Zulle.
(no mean climbers either)
Indurain then started to drop and I can still see Marco on the drops literally spinning by us as he pulled away from the elite bunch.
It was simply magnificent to watch.
MP rocking slightly - hands on the top bars pedalling like a ballerina.
Magnificent.
Then about 45 seconds later Indurain - lungs visibly inhaling and exhaling under his sweat soaked jersey - pounding up the climb trying to minimise time lost to MP.
Indurain was on the drops with a grimace across his usually stoic face.
All the while the Tifosi were screaming "Forza Marco!" while the Dutch stood shell shocked at the side of the road.
Eventuall Riis and the Zulle and the rest of the field (Museeuw driving the groupeto) went by.
But that day, MP was superb.
I never saw BigMig having to work as hard.
What a privilege to be there.
Great story..... ! ! Makes me wish he was still alive... for those in the UK you can pick up a great DVD which covers his races called "Patani the Pirate" at Bromley Video.... http://www.bromleyvideo.com/dvd5.htm - its great hearing the Italian commentary at the Giro... they go mad !
LM - Which winner is signposted at hairpin 19 ? Do you remember ? I'm not sure but its good to remember these things....
LM - Which winner is signposted at hairpin 19 ? Do you remember ? I'm not sure but its good to remember these things....
limerickman said:
