Pantani or Moser?



Flyer

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Sep 20, 2004
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The issue presented today was whether Marco Pantani was a rider capable of winning a Tour de France.

The Tour favors all-round riders who can 1) time trial and 2) climb. (eg: Hinault, Merckx, Roche, Lemond)

It does not lend itself to specialists (TTers only) or (pure climbers only) or (sprinters) It has lots of flat, rollers and 4-5 days of alpine mountains (5-6% gradiants). It has long TTs coming at the end when exhaustion is at its peak.

The Giro includes the Dolimites which are twice as steep as the Alps---on average and would be considered 'illegal roads' in the USA. (Lots of 10-14% grades that pitch up at 18+% from time to time.

Pantani won the TDF in 1998---a year where nearly half the field was made to quit due to police actions and arrests. So that race was not fair, nor a complete test.

In 1984 Giro Franceso Moser defeated Laurent Fignon on the very last day by just a few seconds---not too different than the 1989 loss to Lemond. However, that race dropped the Stelvio pass at the very last minute---Fignon alleges to fix the race for Moser who could not climb with Fignon.

Whatever, Francesco Moser is the type of rider capable of winning a Tour de France than a Giro, but he never did.

As amazing as it is that Pantani won a Tour, it is even more incredible to me that Francesco Moser never did.

Moser was a man for the Tour.

Ironically, Moser is still with us--and riding strong too. While Marco has passed leaving us a legacy of Lance Armstrong's Ferrari trained TDF victories.

Lance Armstrong was never seen as a man for the Tour. Nobody saw that coming, nobody. The 1999 comeback from cancer and his therapy is an absolute miracle of modern science---and that is what sport has become.

Tour victory #7 is a definite possibilty.
 
what is your question?

Moser - granted, he was responsible for making disk wheels legal. He also came to the US and held training camps in Florida for paying cyclists, a real innovation when he did it. Finally he came out of retirement to blast the hour record, opening the way for a lot of technical innovations (who here has aero wheels?). Before him, an "aero" rim was about 20 mm tall and as narrow as could be (the Araya ADX4 and the 18 mm wide Assos rims). Now they 50mm tall or so, low spoke counts (below the normal for then 24), tri/quad spoke, disks, etc.

But I would say he won that Giro probably because a supportive TV helicopter sat behind and above him for a lot of that final TT (no word if a helicopter was sitting in front of Fignon). The "snowed out mountain stage" which had no snow no doubt helped but even if it had been held, I think Moser would have found the same kind of "support" that another Italian rider complained Moser had - an "elevator of hands" pushing him up the climb which enabled him to sprint at the top in a gear two teeth smaller than everyone around him.

Giro - at one point you could have won as a time trialer (Moser) or a pure sprinter (Saronni). Climbers of course too. This is no longer true, it seems the Giro is more selective and the race organizers more consistent.

However, no matter how it happened, Pantani won a Tour and Moser never did.
 
Great points.

Fignon asserts that the TV helicoper hovered in front of him during his TT effort, adding wind resistance.

An effort Fignon made on his standard road bike----no disk wheels, no aero helmet, no lowered position.

The Stelvio Pass was open---but apparently not for Italian Giro business that day.

The question was who is more suited to win the Tour de France. A Moser-type or a Pantani type or an Armstrong type---pre cancer?



carpediemracing said:
what is your question?

Moser - granted, he was responsible for making disk wheels legal. He also came to the US and held training camps in Florida for paying cyclists, a real innovation when he did it. Finally he came out of retirement to blast the hour record, opening the way for a lot of technical innovations (who here has aero wheels?). Before him, an "aero" rim was about 20 mm tall and as narrow as could be (the Araya ADX4 and the 18 mm wide Assos rims). Now they 50mm tall or so, low spoke counts (below the normal for then 24), tri/quad spoke, disks, etc.

But I would say he won that Giro probably because a supportive TV helicopter sat behind and above him for a lot of that final TT (no word if a helicopter was sitting in front of Fignon). The "snowed out mountain stage" which had no snow no doubt helped but even if it had been held, I think Moser would have found the same kind of "support" that another Italian rider complained Moser had - an "elevator of hands" pushing him up the climb which enabled him to sprint at the top in a gear two teeth smaller than everyone around him.

Giro - at one point you could have won as a time trialer (Moser) or a pure sprinter (Saronni). Climbers of course too. This is no longer true, it seems the Giro is more selective and the race organizers more consistent.

However, no matter how it happened, Pantani won a Tour and Moser never did.
 
ok I get the question.

I guess it'd have to depend on the course. With a Tour similar in terrain to one of the Tour Du Ponts, a climber is at a severe disadvantage since they'll lose too much time in the TT's. And in the years that there are more than 5 mountain stages, a well supported climber has the upper edge. TTT's play a huge role since a strong climbing team often does not have the power to hold their own in the TTT (example: the amateur Columbians in the Tour).

In a Tour with super TT's like the 87km monster in 1986, I think a TT-inclined climber would do well. Maybe a Botero or who was that Mapei rider that couldn't climb with the best but could TT well. Spanish guy who was supposed to be the next Indurain. arg I forget his name.


Flyer said:
Great points.

Fignon asserts that the TV helicoper hovered in front of him during his TT effort, adding wind resistance.

An effort Fignon made on his standard road bike----no disk wheels, no aero helmet, no lowered position.

The Stelvio Pass was open---but apparently not for Italian Giro business that day.

The question was who is more suited to win the Tour de France. A Moser-type or a Pantani type or an Armstrong type---pre cancer?
 
carpediemracing said:
what is your question?

Moser - granted, he was responsible for making disk wheels legal. He also came to the US and held training camps in Florida for paying cyclists, a real innovation when he did it. Finally he came out of retirement to blast the hour record, opening the way for a lot of technical innovations (who here has aero wheels?). Before him, an "aero" rim was about 20 mm tall and as narrow as could be (the Araya ADX4 and the 18 mm wide Assos rims). Now they 50mm tall or so, low spoke counts (below the normal for then 24), tri/quad spoke, disks, etc.

But I would say he won that Giro probably because a supportive TV helicopter sat behind and above him for a lot of that final TT (no word if a helicopter was sitting in front of Fignon). The "snowed out mountain stage" which had no snow no doubt helped but even if it had been held, I think Moser would have found the same kind of "support" that another Italian rider complained Moser had - an "elevator of hands" pushing him up the climb which enabled him to sprint at the top in a gear two teeth smaller than everyone around him.

Giro - at one point you could have won as a time trialer (Moser) or a pure sprinter (Saronni). Climbers of course too. This is no longer true, it seems the Giro is more selective and the race organizers more consistent.

However, no matter how it happened, Pantani won a Tour and Moser never did.


yep, the helicopter issue was cited by Fignon.

I still wonder about Mosers win though.

The Renault team, Fignon's team, was the most dominant team of the 1982-1984 period.
That team literally steamrolled everything in sight : TDF/Giro/stages races.
Cyrille Guimard's (the best DS ever, I think) made that team great.

Moser's win in the 1984 Giro went against the form that Fignon & Co were displaying.
Moser's win came out of the blue.
 
Gee, if thety tested for dope, then Pantani woudl have a hard time, with MAJOR performance juice, leaving out the tragic recreational use...
 
fabiosav said:
Gee, if thety tested for dope, then Pantani woudl have a hard time, with MAJOR performance juice, leaving out the tragic recreational use...
I didn't want to bring that up. When a climber can suddenly time trial better than time trialers, it's not right. However, unless I'm mistaken, Moser could never climb beyond a certain level - he relied on his fans, commisars, allied teams, and of course his own team to help him out.