Path impassable what do I do

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:43:56 GMT, [email hidden] (Tim

Jones) said:

What is the crop?

Im not sure but it looks like some kind of bean in any case I did it
and it was a real PITA it took a serious determination to get through
the tangled plants.
--
Gwyn. [email hidden]
Remove rem if replying
note return address is your own computer;-)

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Gwyn <g@?.?.invalid> said

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:43:56 GMT, [email hidden] (Tim

Jones) said:

What is the crop?

Im not sure but it looks like some kind of bean in any case I did it
and it was a real PITA it took a serious determination to get through
the tangled plants.

Was it very very small pods? Did it previously have yelllow flowers? I
ask because Oilseed Rape is the champion for getting itself in a tangle
and blocking paths, even if there was an original clear 6ocm path, a
rape crop can easily close (and flop) over it.

I've never come across a bean crop which was close to impassable,
although some of them are pretty unpleasant when wet (and I've had boots
full of broad bean seeds when they are left to ripen, presumably for
animal feed. Uncomfortable).

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
8,963 Km walked. 1,746Km PROWs surveyed. 31.7% complete.

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:46:32 +0100, Roger <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Wading through wet vegetation is not a pleasant experience and not
having the line of the path marked is a disincentive to many walkers,
particularly where field boundaries have been grubbed out to make huge
prairies. For the timid among us growing crops and no path is all than
it takes to turn them back.

This is a job for a walker equipped with a handheld GPS receiver.

In the past I have been to the local library, obtained waypoint
coordinates from the Definitive Map produced by the Local Authority,
entered them into "GPS Utility" (see www.gpsu.co.uk) and loaded the
footpath route into a GPS.

I was then able to determine exactly (well +/- 5 metres) where the
public footpath should be. It was misplaced by 45 metres and after a
quick letter to the public authority the error was soon corrected.

Perhaps there is scope for a library of public footpaths routes in a
form suitable for loading into GPS receivers, so that walkers can
easily determine the correct line across open fields.

Alan Murphy

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Alan Murphy <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:46:32 +0100, Roger <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Wading through wet vegetation is not a pleasant experience and not
having the line of the path marked is a disincentive to many walkers,
particularly where field boundaries have been grubbed out to make huge
prairies. For the timid among us growing crops and no path is all than
it takes to turn them back.

This is a job for a walker equipped with a handheld GPS receiver.

In the past I have been to the local library, obtained waypoint
coordinates from the Definitive Map produced by the Local Authority,
entered them into "GPS Utility" (see www.gpsu.co.uk) and loaded the
footpath route into a GPS.

I managed to persuade my local CC to give me a computer readable list of
the waypoints for the ROWs, although I had to sign the national secrets
act or something first.

Quoted message said:

I was then able to determine exactly (well +/- 5 metres) where the
public footpath should be. It was misplaced by 45 metres and after a
quick letter to the public authority the error was soon corrected.

I don't mind if it moved 45m, but it would be nice if the map and
reality agreed somewhat. Some of the old routes which follow extinct
hedgerows make no sense when you can now straight line the huge crop
field .. shorter walk, less crop damage.

Quoted message said:

Perhaps there is scope for a library of public footpaths routes in a
form suitable for loading into GPS receivers, so that walkers can
easily determine the correct line across open fields.

I'm doing Shropshire, you do everywhere else!
(www.quik.clara.co.uk/maps). The GPS needs to be a Garmin.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
8,963 Km walked. 1,746Km PROWs surveyed. 31.7% complete.

On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:46:32 +0100, Roger <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from [email hidden] (Tim Jones) contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Why? Whats the point of putting yourself and your friends to any
inconvenience when the issue will quickly resolve itself if the path
is well used?

Quoted message said:

If the path isn't wellused it;s hard to see any problem in the first
place

Wading through wet vegetation is not a pleasant experience and not
having the line of the path marked is a disincentive to many walkers,
particularly where field boundaries have been grubbed out to make huge
prairies. For the timid among us growing crops and no path is all than
it takes to turn them back.

The problem is that once we start pandering to the faint hearted and
wimps in the rambling masses they'll all want tarmac paths and kissing
gates at every hedge or fence next 😉

It's the countryside enjoy it for what it is 😉

Alan Murphy said:

Perhaps there is scope for a library of public footpaths routes in a
form suitable for loading into GPS receivers, so that walkers can
easily determine the correct line across open fields.

Why?

5 minutes work with Memory Map or some other mapping software is all
it takes to upload the paths on your chosen walk onto a GPS. Why
re-invent the wheel?

The message <[email hidden]>
from [email hidden] (Tim Jones) contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps there is scope for a library of public footpaths routes in a
form suitable for loading into GPS receivers, so that walkers can
easily determine the correct line across open fields.

Quoted message said:

Why?

Quoted message said:

5 minutes work with Memory Map or some other mapping software is all
it takes to upload the paths on your chosen walk onto a GPS. Why
re-invent the wheel?

Because that particular wheel is distinctly square. There is apaarently
a major problem with accuracy when it comes to where PROWs really go.

(For the avoidance of any doubt PROWs go where the definitive maps says
they do however stupid that might be).

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

The message <[email hidden]>
from [email hidden] (Tim Jones) contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Wading through wet vegetation is not a pleasant experience and not
having the line of the path marked is a disincentive to many walkers,
particularly where field boundaries have been grubbed out to make huge
prairies. For the timid among us growing crops and no path is all than
it takes to turn them back.

Quoted message said:

The problem is that once we start pandering to the faint hearted and
wimps in the rambling masses they'll all want tarmac paths and kissing
gates at every hedge or fence next 😉

No the problem is that if we let farmers get away with ignoring the law
and not reinstating paths they plough up some of them will be encouraged
to take ever more aggressive steps to deter walkers

Quoted message said:

It's the countryside enjoy it for what it is 😉

I don't actually enjoy lowland walking very much and avoid it when I can
but when I visit family in NE Essex I have no real alternative if I want
a walk.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
person Tim Jones <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

Alan Murphy said:

Perhaps there is scope for a library of public footpaths routes in a
form suitable for loading into GPS receivers, so that walkers can
easily determine the correct line across open fields.

Why?

5 minutes work with Memory Map or some other mapping software is all
it takes to upload the paths on your chosen walk onto a GPS. Why
re-invent the wheel?

You are (incorrectly) assuming that the line of a ROW on the OS map is
accurate and up to date. You are also requiring the user to digitise it
accurately. And the capacity of most GPS handsets for this kind of user
digitised track/waypoint data is very limited, compared to the several
GB of map data you can now pack in, if it is presented in the right
format.

(Based on your approach, why would anyone need road maps on their GPS?
They could just digitise what they need from memory map!)

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
8,963 Km walked. 1,746Km PROWs surveyed. 31.7% complete.

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Was it very very small pods? Did it previously have yelllow flowers? I
ask because Oilseed Rape is the champion for getting itself in a tangle
and blocking paths, even if there was an original clear 6ocm path, a
rape crop can easily close (and flop) over it.

I've never come across a bean crop which was close to impassable,
although some of them are pretty unpleasant when wet (and I've had boots
full of broad bean seeds when they are left to ripen, presumably for
animal feed. Uncomfortable).

Yes they were green pods I think sorry for the confusion. I shall keep
a check on it through the summer in any case I intend to find the
nearest farm and speak to the farmer about it so watch this space.
--
Gwyn. [email hidden]
Remove rem if replying
note return address is your own computer;-)

Roger said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps there is scope for a library of public footpaths routes in a
form suitable for loading into GPS receivers, so that walkers can
easily determine the correct line across open fields.

Quoted message said:

Why?

Quoted message said:

5 minutes work with Memory Map or some other mapping software is all
it takes to upload the paths on your chosen walk onto a GPS. Why
re-invent the wheel?

Because that particular wheel is distinctly square. There is apparently
a major problem with accuracy when it comes to where PROWs really go.

(For the avoidance of any doubt PROWs go where the definitive maps says
they do however stupid that might be).

Just recently I walked every footpath in two parishes in West Berkshire
for the local RA, using copies of 1:10,000 definitive maps supplied by
West Berkshire District Council. I scanned these in, calibrated them,
plotted the paths, sent the tracks to the GPS and then walked them. I
was very surprised at how well the paths from the map corresponded with
the paths on the ground, with only a few discrepancies. Back-plotting
the track logs from the walks onto OS 1:25,000 maps also produced a good
fit between where I'd walked and the paths shown on the maps.

Just to forestall any questions, yes, I have returned the paper copies
of the maps and have destroyed my scanned copies of them.

Regards,
Nick.

--
Nick Hopton,
Caversham, Reading, England.

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Roger <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from [email hidden] (Tim Jones) contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps there is scope for a library of public footpaths routes in a
form suitable for loading into GPS receivers, so that walkers can
easily determine the correct line across open fields.

Quoted message said:

Why?

Quoted message said:

5 minutes work with Memory Map or some other mapping software is all
it takes to upload the paths on your chosen walk onto a GPS. Why
re-invent the wheel?

Because that particular wheel is distinctly square. There is apaarently
a major problem with accuracy when it comes to where PROWs really go.

(For the avoidance of any doubt PROWs go where the definitive maps says
they do however stupid that might be).

AIUI, "Sort of " - actually there are even earlier documents which the
council have been known to refer back to when the definitive map was
particularly stupid (eg shows a ROW going through a 1000 year old wall).
These were the original written submissions which say things like '32
yards South of the field boundary turn West towards Grunge hall,
following the brook around to a field gate and thence to a bridge over
the ...', and which point they go 'Oh .. West .. see WEST' and 'ooops
YARDS, not feet then?' and exhume some long buried junior cartographer
for a negative performance review and ritual burning. Then they fix the
definitive map.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
8,963 Km walked. 1,746Km PROWs surveyed. 31.7% complete.

The message <[email hidden]>
from Nick Hopton <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

5 minutes work with Memory Map or some other mapping software is all
it takes to upload the paths on your chosen walk onto a GPS. Why
re-invent the wheel?

Because that particular wheel is distinctly square. There is apparently
a major problem with accuracy when it comes to where PROWs really go.

(For the avoidance of any doubt PROWs go where the definitive maps says
they do however stupid that might be).

Quoted message said:

Just recently I walked every footpath in two parishes in West Berkshire
for the local RA, using copies of 1:10,000 definitive maps supplied by
West Berkshire District Council. I scanned these in, calibrated them,
plotted the paths, sent the tracks to the GPS and then walked them. I
was very surprised at how well the paths from the map corresponded with
the paths on the ground, with only a few discrepancies. Back-plotting
the track logs from the walks onto OS 1:25,000 maps also produced a good
fit between where I'd walked and the paths shown on the maps.

As I see it there are two problems. The first is most evident in places
like the Lake District where the footpaths as registered often depart
from the line of the pre-existing path on the ground. The second is
something I read about (I think in a national newspaper so may not be
gospel) some years ago - that the line as shown on the OS map frequently
(a majority even IIRC) differs from the that shown on the definitive
map. The diversion of the Essex way I mentioned earlier had elements of
that. The path through the caravan site was shown by the OS (1:25000) as
a dead straight line diagonally across a field that the caravan site had
expanded into in the 60s but the original path had skirted the saltmarsh
before it was reclaimed in the aftermath of the Great Flood (1953) and
would not have been a straight line.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

Alan Murphy <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

This is a job for a walker equipped with a handheld GPS receiver.

In the past I have been to the local library, obtained waypoint
coordinates from the Definitive Map produced by the Local Authority,
entered them into "GPS Utility" (see www.gpsu.co.uk) and loaded the
footpath route into a GPS.

I was then able to determine exactly (well +/- 5 metres) where the
public footpath should be. It was misplaced by 45 metres and after a
quick letter to the public authority the error was soon corrected.

Perhaps there is scope for a library of public footpaths routes in a
form suitable for loading into GPS receivers, so that walkers can
easily determine the correct line across open fields.

Alan Murphy

The GPS has frequently helped us out with the correct line across large
fields, but on a recent walk we were confronted by solid fields of a
wheat or barley crop about chest high, and opted to detour round two
sides of two adjoining fields rather than tread down the straight
diagonal line through the crop. I was game for this, but my female
companion was raised in a farming community, and talked me out of it.

The diagonal which would have taken us through the crops was at Dudland
Hollins, near Gisburn Cotes, from SD 81304 46982 to SD 81022 47055.

The point is that we had no reference to local authority maps at the
point of decision, and I have no idea which authority is would be.

To search it out online after the event and then repeat the walk just to
trample a crop is simply bloody-minded (IMHO).

If we had made a bee-line and discovered that the ROW as detailed in
Tracklogs had been altered, it would be embarrassing.

Far too often, the ROW bears little resemblance to actual paths on the
ground anyway....
--
Gordon H
(Remove invalid to email)

Roger <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

[...]

Quoted message said:

. There is apaarently
a major problem with accuracy when it comes to where PROWs really go.

(For the avoidance of any doubt PROWs go where the definitive maps says
they do however stupid that might be).

Even though I always bought the latest 1:25000 maps we several times
found that the ROWs were out of date.
I hardly think that memory map or Tracklogs can be totally relied on,
and who is going to buy new versions of each area to keep up to date?
--
Gordon H
(Remove invalid to email)

The message <[email hidden]>
from GSV Three Minds in a Can <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(For the avoidance of any doubt PROWs go where the definitive maps says
they do however stupid that might be).

Quoted message said:

AIUI, "Sort of " - actually there are even earlier documents which the
council have been known to refer back to when the definitive map was
particularly stupid (eg shows a ROW going through a 1000 year old wall).
These were the original written submissions which say things like '32
yards South of the field boundary turn West towards Grunge hall,
following the brook around to a field gate and thence to a bridge over
the ...', and which point they go 'Oh .. West .. see WEST' and 'ooops
YARDS, not feet then?' and exhume some long buried junior cartographer
for a negative performance review and ritual burning. Then they fix the
definitive map.

One would hope so. :-)

I got the impression many moons ago when registration was in the air
that much of the hill network had been registered by crude lines drawn
on transparent overlay but as that was over 40 years ago I could easily
be translating a 'what if' into a 'that's how'.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

Alan Murphy said:

Perhaps there is scope for a library of public footpaths routes in a
form suitable for loading into GPS receivers, so that walkers can
easily determine the correct line across open fields.

Devon have a downloadable file of the whole RoW network. Surrey will
not do this because of "copyright" issues, the thing is a they hold it
as a simple vector file, just like Devon, so it's their copyright.

I've just spent this afternoon re opening fp 480 in Guildford through
a stretch of woodland, the contract farmer had already mown a strip
through the wheat which has turned straw coloured and looks fit to
combine in a couple of weeks.

AJH

The message <[email hidden]>
from Gordon H <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

The diagonal which would have taken us through the crops was at Dudland
Hollins, near Gisburn Cotes, from SD 81304 46982 to SD 81022 47055.

Marked as a path on the 1" before the definitive map for the area was
published and has been on the 1:50000 since as a PROW.

Quoted message said:

The point is that we had no reference to local authority maps at the
point of decision, and I have no idea which authority is would be.

Quoted message said:

To search it out online after the event and then repeat the walk just to
trample a crop is simply bloody-minded (IMHO).

Quoted message said:

If we had made a bee-line and discovered that the ROW as detailed in
Tracklogs had been altered, it would be embarrassing.

Yes, but in the absence of any notice detailing a diversion you would
have a good excuse.

Quoted message said:

Far too often, the ROW bears little resemblance to actual paths on the
ground anyway....

In this particular case the map shows an underlying path in addition to
the PROW.

--
Roger Chapman
Nearest Marilyn still to be visited - Great Orme.
89 miles as the crow flies,
considerably more as the walker drives.

On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:10:36 +0100, Roger <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from [email hidden] (Tim Jones) contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps there is scope for a library of public footpaths routes in a
form suitable for loading into GPS receivers, so that walkers can
easily determine the correct line across open fields.

Quoted message said:

Why?

Quoted message said:

5 minutes work with Memory Map or some other mapping software is all
it takes to upload the paths on your chosen walk onto a GPS. Why
re-invent the wheel?

Because that particular wheel is distinctly square. There is apaarently
a major problem with accuracy when it comes to where PROWs really go.

At least it's on your own responsibility. A download off a website of
unknown provenance may leave you with a square, oval, hexagonal or
god alone knows what other shaped wheel 😉

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
person Tim Jones <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

Alan Murphy said:

Perhaps there is scope for a library of public footpaths routes in a
form suitable for loading into GPS receivers, so that walkers can
easily determine the correct line across open fields.

Why?

5 minutes work with Memory Map or some other mapping software is all
it takes to upload the paths on your chosen walk onto a GPS. Why
re-invent the wheel?

You are (incorrectly) assuming that the line of a ROW on the OS map is
accurate and up to date.

How are you deriving your data and what are you doing to make sure it
remaions up to date and any more valid than what can be derived from
an OS map?

Quoted message said:

You are also requiring the user to digitise it
accurately. And the capacity of most GPS handsets for this kind of user
digitised track/waypoint data is very limited, compared to the several
GB of map data you can now pack in, if it is presented in the right
format.

I never realised you were going for this full blown an approach I
guess it won't work on my yellow etrex then 😉

Are you offering a full blown tomtom style route planning option?
Take me from the broken stile to the collapsed foot bridge by the
fallen oak 😉

Quoted message said:

(Based on your approach, why would anyone need road maps on their GPS?
They could just digitise what they need from memory map!)

A days walking is usually short in length and limited in area compared
to a days travel by car. The two just aren't really comparable.