Patriot Act Renewal (II)?



FredC said:
If you look at the liberalistic attitude of Dutch society control, you will find that law is not rescinded, but rather that some sort of progression is tolerated until it gets out of hand.
precisely my point.. Let's take our Patriot Act for example...If Lim had performed his research he would have known that:

#1 The Reagan Administration which initially proposed some of the most troubling provisions which eventually became part of the Patriot Act
#2 When Reagan proposed these provisions, Congress rejected them on constitutional grounds.
#3 The first Bush Administration made similar proposals, which were again rejected by lawmakers.
#4 Congress twice refused to enact the secret evidence provisions proposed by 41
#5 Just prior to 9/11, Congress was about to pass a law repealing the secret evidence provisions of the 1996 Antiterrorism Act.

So there was legislative PROPOSALS prior to 9/11 but 9/11 was the catalyst like VAN GOGH was here...
 
zapper said:
The links don’t speak and they mention nothing about war on terrorism etc…No evidence of public outrage etc…

Anti - terror.

Here's anti terror legislation from 2002 - two years before the aforesaid film maker was killed.

I told you about this hours ago.

Still if you insist, here goes .......................

The Pim Fortuyn List (LPF) has generated most of the headline policies emanating from the new Dutch government. Aware of their party’s instability, the LPF’s more experienced figures are losing no time in floating a raft of anti-democratic policies intended to extend the right-wing programme already agreed by the new Christian Democratic Appeal (CDA) led coalition. Leading this is Hilbrand Nawijn, Minister for Immigration and Integration.

Following May elections won by the CDA, Peoples Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD) and the LPF, the coalition adopted a policy framework outlining attacks on social spending and welfare, along with new law-and-order and anti-immigrant measures. This programme and other recently announced policies represent a sharp break with the consensus politics that dominated the Netherlands for most of the 20th century.

To date, most of the government’s focus has been directed against migrants. On August 16, LPF member Hilbrand Nawijn, proposed that “illegal” immigrants should be locked up in army barracks or “departure centres” and their social support cut by 90 percent, pending deportation. Nawijn particularly targeted migrants from North Africa and Turkey and said the new government would be as “tough as possible.” Scapegoating migrants for the lack of affordable housing in Dutch cities, Nawijn told Nova TV “there are lots illegal immigrants in the larger cities living in housing intended for use by Dutch people and legal foreigners...” Legislation should be introduced to this end within six months.

Next Nawijn proposed that companies found hiring “illegal” workers should be fined up to 1,800 euros. This is double the current figure and it generated a howl of protest from MKB, the medium-sized business federation. Days later, Nawijn proposed the deportation of Dutch citizens of Moroccan descent found guilty of criminal offences.

In response, Prime Minister Peter van Balkenende said that these measures were contrary to the Dutch constitution and he would speak to Nawijn about his provocative comments. Balkenende confirmed, however, that he had no problem deporting people found guilty of crimes who were without passports or permanent residency. Van Vroonhoven, a Lower House CDA representative, also warned Nawijn about stigmatising Moroccans but insisted that his party was happy to discuss new measures against migrants convicted of crimes.

The government has initiated an “anti-terror” investigation into Holland’s 800,000 Muslims and last week arrested seven men accused of connections with Al Qaeda. Nawijn later told the Volkskrant that he was looking at whether targeted individuals could be deprived of citizenship prior to deportation. This can be done, he claimed, on the basis of threats to national security.


read all about 2002 anti-terror at http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/sep2002/holl-s09.shtml


zapper said:
You lack the ability to educate for you lack the ability to learn….Or..There you go thinking again…they both fit.

No.
seems you have the inability to learn and retain knowledge.

zapper said:
bla bla bla anti-American crapola, bla, bla, bla….

that's right - we're all anti-American here.
That's why I spent 7 out of the past 12 days in your country (rolleyes).

Change the tune.
 
FredC said:
If you look at the liberalistic attitude of Dutch society control, you will find that law is not rescinded, but rather that some sort of progression is tolerated until it gets out of hand. Contrary to general belief Brown cafes and window prostitution is not legal. It only requires the nod to get the police to clamp down. This principle is the underlying factor to society in Holland.

I think this exchange with our friend in the Blue Ridge mountains concerns the catalyst for change.
He saw an article about a film maker being killed and then deduced that this somehow was the catalyst for anti-terror legislation in 2004.
A little information is a dangerous thing - people begin to think that they're above their station.

The fact of the matter is that the move to enact anti-terror legislation commenced with Fortuyn in 2001.
Fortuyn had advocated that Muslims in Holland were a threat in 2001/2002
and he attempted to push legislation to this end.
He attempted to remove article one of their Constitution in Feb 2002.

In July/Aug 2002, the Dutch Parliament already enacted legislation because they assumed that the Fortuyn assasination was at the hands of an Islamic
terrorist.
So the anti-terror proposals and legislation was well in train before 2004 murder.
 
limerickman said:
I think this exchange with our friend in the Blue Ridge mountains concerns the catalyst for change.
He saw an article about a film maker being killed and then deduced that this somehow was the catalyst for anti-terror legislation in 2004.
A little information is a dangerous thing - people begin to think that they're above their station.

The fact of the matter is that the move to enact anti-terror legislation commenced with Fortuyn in 2001.
Fortuyn had advocated that Muslims in Holland were a threat in 2001/2002
and he attempted to push legislation to this end.
He attempted to remove article one of their Constitution in Feb 2002.

In July/Aug 2002, the Dutch Parliament already enacted legislation because they assumed that the Fortuyn assasination was at the hands of an Islamic
terrorist.
So the anti-terror proposals and legislation was well in train before 2004 murder.
As far as I aware the liberal and mainly Calvanistic population of Holland became more aware of any subversion in their society by having immigrants from Surinam many years ago.
It is my opinion that because Fortuyn was murdered doesn't matter one hoot in the general unsubstansitated debate from America about their interpretation of the word 'Terrorism'. It is a social and administrative issue that is being addressed in Holland as regards citizenship and therefore control.
 
FredC said:
As far as I aware the liberal and mainly Calvanistic population of Holland became more aware of any subversion in their society by having immigrants from Surinam many years ago.
It is my opinion that because Fortuyn was murdered doesn't matter one hoot in the general unsubstansitated debate from America about their interpretation of the word 'Terrorism'. It is a social and administrative issue that is being addressed in Holland as regards citizenship and therefore control.

Well James Drury got himself in to a lather about anti-terrorism when debating this issue with DavidMc (see message 22).

He proposed that the Dutch enacted anti-terror legislation in 2004, along the lines of the Judeo-christian US Patriot Act.
He was materially incorrect on several levels.

As you point out, the Dutch advocate the principle of tolerance.
They put this principle of tolerance - the first article of their constitution - ahead of everything else.
They don't resort to knee jerk scaremongering, a la Bush & Co.
Therefore anti-terror legislation along the lines of the US Patriot Act would never stand a chance of being enforced in Holland.

But on another level, he seems to have never heard of Fortuyn and the ongoing debate that there was in Holland between 2001/2002- otherwise he would never have gotten himself entangled in the first place, knowing the facts.

As an aside, the Dutch are great people - very very intelligent and forward thinking people.
I have only visited their country twice but I did have a lot of dealings with them through work and found them to be very easy people to deal with.

How did you find them, Fred ?
 
limerickman said:
Well James Drury got himself in to a lather about anti-terrorism when debating this issue with DavidMc (see message 22).

He proposed that the Dutch enacted anti-terror legislation in 2004, along the lines of the Judeo-christian US Patriot Act.
He was materially incorrect on several levels.

As you point out, the Dutch advocate the principle of tolerance.
They put this principle of tolerance - the first article of their constitution - ahead of everything else.
They don't resort to knee jerk scaremongering, a la Bush & Co.
Therefore anti-terror legislation along the lines of the US Patriot Act would never stand a chance of being enforced in Holland.

But on another level, he seems to have never heard of Fortuyn and the ongoing debate that there was in Holland between 2001/2002- otherwise he would never have gotten himself entangled in the first place, knowing the facts.

As an aside, the Dutch are great people - very very intelligent and forward thinking people.
I have only visited their country twice but I did have a lot of dealings with them through work and found them to be very easy people to deal with.

How did you find them, Fred ?
I took the trouble to read #22 and found the whole lot to absolute rubbish.
Perhaps someone told Bush that only 15m people live there, so he decided to try and scare them.
Hey they **** on Bushes, while the dog does the lamposts.
How do I find the Dutch? Well, they beat me in the Tour of Holland, as for all the other bits, I'd be here 'til the **** crowed. Best stoke up the fire. Great people, much like the Bretons in my opinion.
 
limerickman said:
Anti - terror.

Here's anti terror legislation from 2002 - two years before the aforesaid film maker was killed.

I told you about this hours ago.

Still if you insist, here goes .......................

...” Legislation should be introduced to this end within six months.
Was it? Once again…falls short …This seems remarkably similar to my example of our pre-Patriot Act days…

Next Nawijn proposed that companies found hiring “illegal” workers should be fined up to 1,800 euros. This is double the current figure and it generated a howl of protest from MKB, the medium-sized business federation. Days later, Nawijn proposed the deportation of Dutch citizens of Moroccan descent found guilty of criminal offences.

In response, Prime Minister Peter van Balkenende said that these measures were contrary to the Dutch constitution and he would speak to Nawijn about his provocative comments. Balkenende confirmed, however, that he had no problem deporting people found guilty of crimes who were without passports or permanent residency. Van Vroonhoven, a Lower House CDA representative, also warned Nawijn about stigmatising Moroccans but insisted that his party was happy to discuss new measures against migrants convicted of crimes.

The government has initiated an “anti-terror” investigation into Holland’s 800,000 Muslims and last week arrested seven men accused of connections with Al Qaeda. Nawijn later told the Volkskrant that he was looking at whether targeted individuals could be deprived of citizenship prior to deportation. This can be done, he claimed, on the basis of threats to national security. Your example here is riddled with proposals and guesswork much like our pre- PA.. So, you fall short of backing up your theory as usual.

No. seems you have the inability to learn and retain knowledge.
How can one possess an “inability”… You are pathetic now…it must be late. You should have gone to bed.

that's right - we're all anti-American here.
That's why I spent 7 out of the past 12 days in your country
No not everyone. You just like to go out of your way to make your feelings known. Hey BTW, there are plenty of “anti-Americans” that cross our borders everyday. I’m saddened that the “minutemen didn’t report your arrival! But seriously, I’m surprised you would visit our pitiful country…what wer ya doin collectin rent from us poor toothless, jobless merkians?
 
zapper said:
No not everyone. You just like to go out of your way to make your feelings known. Hey BTW, there are plenty of “anti-Americans” that cross our borders everyday. I’m saddened that the “minutemen didn’t report your arrival! But seriously, I’m surprised you would visit our pitiful country…what wer ya doin collectin rent from us poor toothless, jobless merkians?

I was in your lovely country for business reasons, actually.

An interesting and enlightening trip - a lot has changed since my last visit there
in 2000.
 
limerickman said:
I was in your lovely country for business reasons, actually.

An interesting and enlightening trip - a lot has changed since my last visit there
in 2000.
Did you enjoy any part of your trip or was it all buisiness :confused:
 
davidmc said:
Did you enjoy any part of your trip or was it all buisiness :confused:

Well a lot of it was work - which i won't bore you with.

But I enjoyed New York, where I was for 4 days.
The people who I am dealing with, went out of their way to make me welcome.
We got access to Yankee Stadium as part of their corporate benefits to see
the Yankees practice.
This was great.

Got to some nice eateries such as Bouley's on Broadway, and Felidia's on 243 East.

Then it was on to Naples in Florida as part of the trip also.
Very nice part of the world.

I had some very interesting conversations with my American hosts.
Their views about Bush, war on terror, were very very enlightening.
 
limerickman said:
I was in your lovely country for business reasons, actually.

An interesting and enlightening trip - a lot has changed since my last visit there
in 2000.
Yeh, they're all skint now.
 
limerickman said:
Well a lot of it was work - which i won't bore you with.

But I enjoyed New York, where I was for 4 days.
The people who I am dealing with, went out of their way to make me welcome.
We got access to Yankee Stadium as part of their corporate benefits to see
the Yankees practice.
This was great.

Got to some nice eateries such as Bouley's on Broadway, and Felidia's on 243 East.

Then it was on to Naples in Florida as part of the trip also.
Very nice part of the world.

I had some very interesting conversations with my American hosts.
Their views about Bush, war on terror, were very very enlightening.
I've been to Naples a couple of times. Terminus of "Alligator Alley" highway-linking W. Florida to E. Florida. Up-scale place, no? Quite exotic/luxurious.
 
limerickman said:
I was in your lovely country for business reasons, actually.

An interesting and enlightening trip - a lot has changed since my last visit there
in 2000.
Well next time look me up and I will show you around the Virginia Area. Perhaps I'll even take you to a Richmond Cup Race and introduce you to some of my Conservative friends...But wait until hurricane season so I can also introduce you to our "destructive weather"...
 
zapper said:
Well next time look me up and I will show you around the Virginia Area. Perhaps I'll even take you to a Richmond Cup Race and introduce you to some of my Conservative friends...But wait until hurricane season so I can also introduce you to our "destructive weather"...

Thank you for your offer.

Promise me that you won't kidnap me and detain me and ply me with truth serum, in your office there at Langley.
 
limerickman said:
Thank you for your offer.

Promise me that you won't kidnap me and detain me and ply me with truth serum, in your office there at Langley.
No problem as long as you salute President Bush's Picture on the way in. ;)
 

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