Pedaling in Circles

[mark444]

For the last two years I've been getting back into the activity. Some of the books I'm reading talk about "pedaling in circles." This concept seemed to be big 10 years ago...but I've recently heard that it is a more a myth now. What is the current thinking?

Thanks Mark

 

[Billy_Bob]

If it was big 10 years ago then I guess it'll be big 10 years from now. I'm new to road cycling [sept 07] and the thought of spinning in circles was a new concept to me. I figured you just push down hard and that was it.

Then someone explained with the clock illustration about pulling from 4pm to 7pm . I'd thought the clip in shoes were just to stop your feet from slipping off the pedals

 

[sogood]

I read that when they did a study of those pro-riders, they found that the downstroke was still the dominant point of power by a big margin. Personally, I find that powering the downstrokes certainly works for a short time but would drain the muscles quicker. For more sustained ride, pedaling in circle seemed to be the goer.

 

[Alex Simmons]

For the last two years I've been getting back into the activity. Some of the books I'm reading talk about "pedaling in circles." This concept seemed to be big 10 years ago...but I've recently heard that it is a more a myth now. What is the current thinking?

Thanks Mark

Well unless your cranks magically change length as they rotate, then you will be pedalling in circles (relative to the pedal axle) no matter what "method" you use to pedal.

And before this gets out of hand - there are plenty of threads that have gone over this topic ad nauseum. Please use the search function first and read the 15 million posts on the topic.

Then just go out there and pedal. When you want to go faster, pedal harder and/or faster. It really is that simple

 

[swampy1970]

Well unless your cranks magically change length as they rotate, then you will be pedalling in circles (relative to the pedal axle) no matter what "method" you use to pedal.

And before this gets out of hand - there are plenty of threads that have gone over this topic ad nauseum. Please use the search function first and read the 15 million posts on the topic.

Then just go out there and pedal. When you want to go faster, pedal harder and/or faster. It really is that simple

It is simple... yet it isn't.

I too read the one study that showed that riders that go ride 25's in the low to mid 50 minute range pushed down harder. I've done mid 50's for a 25 and mid 1 50's for 50 mile time trials and I want to know how the guys who can average over 30mph pedal.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

... I want to know how the guys who can average over 30mph pedal.

Well, there's this classic study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

Basically the national caliber TT riders pushed harder on the downstroke. The state level riders spun smoother circles but went slower. The VO2 Max of both groups was very similar......

 

[frenchyge]

And before this gets out of hand - there are plenty of threads that have gone over this topic ad nauseum. Please use the search function first and read the 15 million posts on the topic.

You mean like the stickied thread that's been nailed to the very tippie-top of this very forum for a couple years now? Who'd look there?

 

[Alex Simmons]

I want to know how the guys who can average over 30mph pedal.

Harder than you apparently.

 

[swampy1970]

Well, there's this classic study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

Basically the national caliber TT riders pushed harder on the downstroke. The state level riders spun smoother circles but went slower. The VO2 Max of both groups was very similar......

Ah, that's a login page Dave If it's the same study that I'm thinking of then its all well and good saying that the guy who could do a 51 went 5 minutes faster than the state level guys by pushing harder - but I want to know what the guys do who go 5+ minutes faster than him.

Alex. You think? No..... I'd never have thunk it.

If you watch the absolute best of the best at time trialing over the past 25 years, Hinault, LeMond, Indurain, Boardman and Armstrong you can see that their style is not only more fluid but you can see that there's rotation around the pelvis on the saddle - which is something that you don't see on the "less than Godly but way sub 50 minute 25 fast" time trialists in the Pro ranks.

If you get the chance, watch Indurain's 3 minute trouncing of the field in the 92 Tour. You'll get what I mean....

 

[Alex Simmons]

Alex. You think? No..... I'd never have thunk it.

If you watch the absolute best of the best at time trialing over the past 25 years, Hinault, LeMond, Indurain, Boardman and Armstrong you can see that their style is not only more fluid but you can see that there's rotation around the pelvis on the saddle - which is something that you don't see on the "less than Godly but way sub 50 minute 25 fast" time trialists in the Pro ranks.

If you get the chance, watch Indurain's 3 minute trouncing of the field in the 92 Tour. You'll get what I mean....

So fluid = pedalling in circles? (Whatever that mens). Hmmm.

Have you read the other threads yet?

When you discover a legal and sustainable way to go faster that doesn't involved good ol' honest (well planned) training, determination, good nutrition, recovery, reducing opposing forces on a bike (such as air resistance) and choosing your parents (esp your Mum), then let us know.

Until then, just pedal.... and then pedal a bit harder.

 

[sogood]

Why is mum particularly important? The way she does her pasta? Or the gene factor?

 

[Alex Simmons]

Why is mum particularly important? The way she does her pasta? Or the gene factor?

Hey, I'm no expert but the summary in this wiki entry should explain the basis of my comment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_mitochondrial_genetics

It's not all about the mitochondria though

 

[sogood]

Thanks Alex. That article sure has gone into the details of mitochondrial genetics. Heavy reading alright. In the meantime, I'll just need a bit more mutation in my mtDNA sequences.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Ah, that's a login page Dave ...

Sorry about that, here's the pdf:
http://www.edb.utexas.edu/coyle/pdf%20library/(40)%20Coyle,%20Feltner%20et%20al,%20Physiological%20and%20biochemical%20determinants%20of%20elite%20endurance%20cycling%20performance,%20Med%20and%20Sci%20in%20Sports%20and%20Exercise,%2023,%2093-107,%201991.pdf

...If it's the same study that I'm thinking of then its all well and good saying that the guy who could do a 51 went 5 minutes faster than the state level guys by pushing harder - but I want to know what the guys do who go 5+ minutes faster than him...

Well it basically says the 9 national level guys who were doing darn close to 30mph pedaled with higher peak downstroke force than the 6 state level guys who went slower. Sure it's possible that the best pro time trialists who go even faster have a very different pedal stroke, that somehow the tendency to apply bigger peak downstroke forces reverses among the best of the best and that they pedal more like the state level guys....I doubt it. But let's assume they do, unless you've got the sustainable power of Indurain in his prime what does it matter? Among the mere mortals studied pedaling circles didn't result in more speed.

Since the question of this thread is whether pedaling in circles is important I think this study is relevent and based on this piece - no, pedaling in perfect circles is not that important if you want to go fast.

-Dave

 

[dkrenik]

For the last two years I've been getting back into the activity. Some of the books I'm reading talk about "pedaling in circles." This concept seemed to be big 10 years ago...but I've recently heard that it is a more a myth now. What is the current thinking?

Thanks Mark

You should check out the sticky: "Pealing Up Pushing Down" (not my spelling):
http://www.cyclingforums.com/t233514.html

Dave

 

[Pendejo]

I'm a national-level age-group time trialer and I assumed I had a nice "circular" stroke, since I've always been conscious to pedal that way and not be a "plunger." Well, last week while out on a ride my cleat broke on my left shoe and I could no longer clip in. I figured I'd have to limp home while struggling to keep my foot on that pedal. Wrong. I found that I could still go fast without feeling that I was sacrificing any power to that pedal, and never once did I pull my foot off the pedal on the upstroke. I was really surprised by this. I wonder how many others out there would be, also.

 

[frenchyge]

I'm a national-level age-group time trialer and I assumed I had a nice "circular" stroke, since I've always been conscious to pedal that way and not be a "plunger." Well, last week while out on a ride my cleat broke on my left shoe and I could no longer clip in. I figured I'd have to limp home while struggling to keep my foot on that pedal. Wrong. I found that I could still go fast without feeling that I was sacrificing any power to that pedal, and never once did I pull my foot off the pedal on the upstroke. I was really surprised by this. I wonder how many others out there would be, also.

What are you saying surprised you, that you didn't lose any speed, or that despite having a smooth stroke there is still some downward weight on that rising pedal?

 

[Spunout]

What are you saying surprised you, that you didn't lose any speed, or that despite having a smooth stroke there is still some downward weight on that rising pedal?

Just remember to push very hard on the downstroke. Circular pedalling is a red herring.

 

[Spunout]

If you watch the absolute best of the best at time trialing over the past 25 years, Hinault, LeMond, Indurain, Boardman and Armstrong you can see that their style is not only more fluid but you can see that there's rotation around the pelvis on the saddle - which is something that you don't see on the "less than Godly but way sub 50 minute 25 fast" time trialists in the Pro ranks.

If you get the chance, watch Indurain's 3 minute trouncing of the field in the 92 Tour. You'll get what I mean....

Core strength and stability for those gifted individuals above. Lemond was a fabulous masher! The referenced article about pushing harder is the word.

 

[kennf]

there's rotation around the pelvis on the saddle - which is something that you don't see on the "less than Godly but way sub 50 minute 25 fast" time trialists in the Pro ranks.

What does this mean?