Periodization

[ptooey]

Hello,
I was wondering how many of you train via a completely periodisized approach (ie several weeks/months of 2-3 2x20 sessions a week, followed by several weeks of 2 x 5x5 sessions a week, etc) vs mixing up the types of training that you do throughout a given training week (ie one day of 5 x 5s and 2 or 3 days of 2x20s per week)? The reason that I ask is that I am in a 2 month block of VO2 training where I am trying to do VO2 intervals on Tue and Thu AND a fast group ride on Sat, and I just cannot recover btwn my 2 VO2 days. I think it would work better to do 5x5 on Tue, 2x20 on Wed or Thu, and the group ride on Sat. I don't want to drop the group ride because it is my ONLY chance to ride with others and I like the extra motivation of "give it 100% or get dropped and ride home alone". Thanks.

 

[WarrenG]

Hello,
I was wondering how many of you train via a completely periodisized approach (ie several weeks/months of 2-3 2x20 sessions a week, followed by several weeks of 2 x 5x5 sessions a week, etc) vs mixing up the types of training that you do throughout a given training week (ie one day of 5 x 5s and 2 or 3 days of 2x20s per week)? The reason that I ask is that I am in a 2 month block of VO2 training where I am trying to do VO2 intervals on Tue and Thu AND a fast group ride on Sat, and I just cannot recover btwn my 2 VO2 days. I think it would work better to do 5x5 on Tue, 2x20 on Wed or Thu, and the group ride on Sat. I don't want to drop the group ride because it is my ONLY chance to ride with others and I like the extra motivation of "give it 100% or get dropped and ride home alone". Thanks.

I don't agree with training only one or two aspects of your fitness at a time. I've learned from my coach and past experience that when I'm still months from peaking I should allow about 7-10 days between VO2max training sessions, and this includes races with lots of VO2max efforts like track races. I also need several days at least between sessions aimed primarily at threshold training, including races.

These rest periods allow you the time and energy to recover and actually improve (rebuild, supercompensate) those aspects of your fitness that you want to improve, and in those rest periods you can address other aspects of your fitness. This more varied approach also helps to maintain all, or at least most of the aspects you have been training, rather than mostly ignoring them and allowing them to decline, or at least not improving further.

Variety in training also makes training more interesting and I think your body responds best to a variety of training stimulii better than trying to stimulate it with the same thing day after day (or every 1-3 days).

I think 2 sessions of VO2max only 2 days apart should be saved for the final month before peaking. You still need to allow time for supercompensation between those sessions and enough recovery to help prevent burn-out, but also because near your peak you should be very fit and this will help you tolerate this high training stress and benefit from it.

Even near peak 2 sessions of 5x5' two days apart is too much of that intensity for most people. You could do some VO2max training several times a week as part of peaking but it should/could be split into different types of efforts. For example, some 5' @VO2max intervals, then another day with some 40" on/20" off intervals, then another day some efforts progressing from around threshold up to VO2max and holding that for a minute or so. You can also incorporate higher cadences some days to place some high stress on your cardiovascular system while saving your legs a bit.

Be patient in your training. Train hard but allow for enough rest so you can improve nearly each week. Let your fitness improve gradually, and in many aspects. The results will come. I start training November 1 for a peak in August.

 

[frenchyge]

The reason that I ask is that I am in a 2 month block of VO2 training where I am trying to do VO2 intervals on Tue and Thu AND a fast group ride on Sat, and I just cannot recover btwn my 2 VO2 days.

How are your nutrition and sleep during this part of the week? Proper attention to those 2 training aspects will do wonders for your recovery. I've seen recommendations to eat ~1g of carbs per kg of body weight within 2hrs after a hard workout, and a good night's sleep for optimal recovery.

 

[ptooey]

I do actually change up the workout some - Ive been doing 2 sets of 3 x 4min on/2.5 min recov at @1.2 X FT on Tue and TRYING to do 2 sets of 5 x 2min on/1.75 min recov at 1.35 X FT on Thu but this week I was only able to complete 2 reps on Thu before my legs just said "no way". Maybe I just need to cut back on the power some.

Sleep and post ride nutrition are pretty good - but I usually just eat my lunch after my ride - maybe I should focus on getting in a recovery drink and eating an hr or 2 later.

Im focusing on VO2s because I think that short, hard efforts are my biggest weakness - I can ride all day at a steady pace but cannot respond to attacks very well. I find 2 x 20s to be a lot less stressful than shorter efforts.

BTW - I am also having a hard time with the short recovery time (see above) for my VO2 efforts - Im used to an ~5min recov time btwn efforts. What is the reasoning behind the 2.5 min recovery? Thanks.

 

[Spunout]

TRYING to do 2 sets of 5 x 2min on/1.75 min recov at 1.35 X FT on

This is an Anaerobic Capacity workout, no? 135% FT? 1:1 intervals? I don't know if I'd ever suggest that interval as a VO2Max workout.

If you want to do 2min AC ints, recover FULLY and these are only 8 weeks from your peak.

If you want to mix up the VO2Max work, try 30s/30s for 40 minutes at 120% FT. That is good to mix it up.

YMMV.

 

[ptooey]

30/30s at 1.2 x FT, huh? That sounds rather easy, but then I read the 40min part. What about sets of 10 - 20 minutes at a higher power level?

 

[whoawhoa]

Im focusing on VO2s because I think that short, hard efforts are my biggest weakness - I can ride all day at a steady pace but cannot respond to attacks very well. I find 2 x 20s to be a lot less stressful than shorter efforts.

2x20s feel less stressful to me, too, but remember that vo2max efforts have fairly low tss/metabolic strain. Because of that, you may want to keep training geared at maintaining/improving FT if you are doing a 2 month v02max period.

BTW - I am also having a hard time with the short recovery time (see above) for my VO2 efforts - Im used to an ~5min recov time btwn efforts. What is the reasoning behind the 2.5 min recovery? Thanks.

There was a study posted on another thread regarding rest intervals during 6x5 v02max efforts. The subjects apparently could hit roughly the same power over all 6 intervals with a 2.5 ri as a 5 ri, IIRC. Also, I think the subjects doing 2.5 minute rest intervals hit v02max faster? I'll see if I can find the link.

 

[SolarEnergy]

I do train using a totally periodized approach.

I'd say that I agree with all that have been said by everyone so far.

My 2pennies would be that even if you are in a VO2Max developpement sub-phase, you can still vary the difficulty level from one week to week, in order to absorb that workload and recover from all that. And, as Warren said, it's not forbiden to include some other type of work, at least for maintenance purposes.

You could be doing something like this :

Where
Wk 1 = 2X20 and 2X(3X4)
Wk 2 = 4X4 and 2X(4X3) if you absolutely want to work on short ones
Wk 3 = 2X(3X4) and 2X(4X3)
Wk 4 = 1X20 and 4X3

That is just an example of course. Put your own flavor. Workout ideas suggested by the other participants of the thread are very good indeed too.

For the recovery duration between the sets, when the duration of the interval is long enough to fully overload the system you are working, 2:1 ratio may be good. But I think 1:1 ratio can do the job too.

 

[frenchyge]

I do actually change up the workout some - Ive been doing 2 sets of 3 x 4min on/2.5 min recov at @1.2 X FT on Tue and TRYING to do 2 sets of 5 x 2min on/1.75 min recov at 1.35 X FT on Thu but this week I was only able to complete 2 reps on Thu before my legs just said "no way". Maybe I just need to cut back on the power some.

Yep, you need to cut back the power some. Recovery isn't the issue, those workouts are just too hard to be done.

Tue workout - 6x4/2.5 @ 120%FT / 50% FT yields 37 min at an IF=1.08 just before the final rest.
Thur workout - 10x2/1.75 @ 135%FT / 50%FT yields 34 min at an IF=1.16 just before the final rest. Even 2 reps at that intensity yields 6 min at an overall IF=1.24.

I really don't think those intensities are feasible in any case.

 

[ptooey]

OK - I guess Im trying to push myself too hard. Since I seem to be able to complete the Tue efforts, I will keep them and switch the Thu efforts to a mix of 40/20s, 2x20s or lactate tolerance intervals.

Thanks frenchyge for the IF analysis - that is one thing (along with TSS) that I have not started applying to my training yet. I suppose I should give the CyclingPeaks software a try.

One more ?: Since I am a MTB race who has problems with the surging nature of fast group rides, what do you think of this for my Thu workout:

[email protected]/[email protected]/[email protected]/4min rest x 4
progressing to 5min @1.2xFT

 

[frenchyge]

One more ?: Since I am a MTB race who has problems with the surging nature of fast group rides, what do you think of this for my Thu workout:

[email protected]/[email protected]/[email protected]/4min rest x 4
progressing to 5min @1.2xFT

How have you determined your FT? 4min @ 120%FT is a real killer for me, and I don't think I could do more than one or two reps of 5min @ 120%FT without a *significant* rest period. Is it possible that your FT is understated?

Aside from that, I like the surge/recover at high power workout. I've started doing some over/under FT workouts myself, and find them hard, but engaging.

 

[acoggan]

Yep, you need to cut back the power some. Recovery isn't the issue, those workouts are just too hard to be done.

Tue workout - 6x4/2.5 @ 120%FT / 50% FT yields 37 min at an IF=1.08 just before the final rest.
Thur workout - 10x2/1.75 @ 135%FT / 50%FT yields 34 min at an IF=1.16 just before the final rest. Even 2 reps at that intensity yields 6 min at an overall IF=1.24.

I really don't think those intensities are feasible in any case.

If you've got a high anaerobic capacity, the Tuesday workout could be doable, but it would undoubtly hurt. Thursdays, though, would be nigh on impossible (unless you've underestimated your functional threshold power).

 

[acoggan]

2x20s feel less stressful to me, too, but remember that vo2max efforts have fairly low tss/metabolic strain.

If they do, you're not working hard enough!

Because of that, you may want to keep training geared at maintaining/improving FT if you are doing a 2 month v02max period.

You're likely to see some "backsliding" of your functional threshold power if all you do for 2 mo is level 5 intervals. However, as the saying goes "it's all aerobic", which means that you won't lose all that much (in my experience, <5%). Still, if you're training for an event that depends on both LT and VO2max, then some maintenance is warranted, as you suggest.

There was a study posted on another thread regarding rest intervals during 6x5 v02max efforts. The subjects apparently could hit roughly the same power over all 6 intervals with a 2.5 ri as a 5 ri, IIRC. Also, I think the subjects doing 2.5 minute rest intervals hit v02max faster? I'll see if I can find the link.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16177614&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

 

[ptooey]

I am calculating my FT based on 2x20 efforts done in January. It may have increased since then - I will retest this week.

I have been trying a "reverse periodization" training plan. I plan to race in several endurance (60-100 mile and 12hr) MTB events this summer PLUS in some 24hr team events where I will have to go all out for 40min-1.5hr laps every 4-5 hrs. Different ends of the spectrum, I know.

Anyway, after 1-2 months of unstructured z2+z3 base training (including 2 20hr+ weeks when I was bike touring), I started in on the Z5 work and will transistion to z4 (2 or 3 x20) work in about a month.

I "copied" the Tue/Thu routine from something Dave Harris (an elite MTB endurance racer) posted on another board. Dave does this as a block, with no rest day in btwn - that was just NOT doable for me.

Also, I have an easier time completing 4-5 min Z5 intervals with a 5min rest over a 2.5 min rest - maybe it is all in my head, tho.

 

[Spunout]

Reverse periodization is a reality when living in the north and you cannot get big hours in during the winter.

But it is not necessarily working at L6 down to L3 through the phazes. I really thing doing L5/6 work through the winter is just going to toast you by the season. I have prescribed 30s/30s Z5 workouts every other week at the end of base to get ready, but nothing like you've done.

I start with Endurance and Sprinting in the early winter. Add FT after 4 weeks, add V02 Max after another 8 weeks.

Tempo: I wait until racing season as spring group rides (frisky ones) and long RRs are tempo rides out of the wind. Using Lemond's weekly schedule, make Thursday and Sunday your long E2 ride when you can get it done outside.

Z5 and Z6 Start 8 weeks before racing peak.

That way, we actually can manage constantly rising TSS from December to early March while holding at 8-10 hours per week. There will be a four week peak-hours phase to ramp up to 16 (elite 1/2s) hours but then quickly taper into build. It takes careful scheduling to do a full week of speedwork and a 4-5 hour E ride to make sure that the endurance is there.

 

[whoawhoa]

If they do, you're not working hard enough!

Not working hard enough on the FT or v02 intervals?

You're likely to see some "backsliding" of your functional threshold power if all you do for 2 mo is level 5 intervals. However, as the saying goes "it's all aerobic", which means that you won't lose all that much (in my experience, <5%). Still, if you're training for an event that depends on both LT and VO2max, then some maintenance is warranted, as you suggest.

In general, would you prefer the FT "maintenance" to take the form of less structured high l2-low l4 workouts, or threshold intervals?

 

[acoggan]

Not working hard enough on the FT or v02 intervals?

Not working hard enough during your level 5 intervals.

In general, would you prefer the FT "maintenance" to take the form of less structured high l2-low l4 workouts, or threshold intervals?

Personally, I would choose to continue doing structured level 4 intervals periodically.

 

[Old Junker]

If you've got a high anaerobic capacity, the Tuesday workout could be doable, but it would undoubtly hurt. Thursdays, though, would be nigh on impossible (unless you've underestimated your functional threshold power).

i have done a MILDER but similar workout like 6x4@110%x 3@50% on both tue and thurs for 2 weeks ( the 110% happened to be 4.5w/kgfor me ), i would never even try the 10x2

 

[frenchyge]

i have done a MILDER but similar workout like 6x4@110%x 3@50% on both tue and thurs for 2 weeks ( the 110% happened to be 4.5w/kgfor me ), i would never even try the 10x2

There's a huge difference between 110% FT and 135% FT. I'm not even sure I'd call them similar.

 

[Old Junker]

There's a huge difference between 110% FT and 135% FT. I'm not even sure I'd call them similar.

your right my bad