Phantom vs P38

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by Don, Feb 28, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Don

    Don Guest

    Has anyone owned both the Phantom and P38 or have carnal knowledge of both? I am trying to decide
    between the two. I have sizing issues which I won't go into here and some preferences but I do not
    want to flavor the feed back. I would be buying just a frame and then building it the way I want so
    component related differences would be negated. Is the weight diff between the two mostly component
    differences or the frame? Is one frame just a better performer due to the difference in
    construction? My understanding is the geometry is the same. Please let me know if I am incorrect. I
    am also undecided on the two handlebar choices with the attendant differences in shifters and brake
    levers. What the heck are the "A" brakes on the Phantom? I did not see V-brakes as a frame option
    for the Phantom.

    Please feel free to contact me off the forum if you wish. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks, Don
     
    Tags:


  2. In article <[email protected]>, dizone1 @lycos.com says...
    > Has anyone owned both the Phantom and P38 or have carnal knowledge of both? I am trying to decide
    > between the two. I have sizing issues which I won't go into here and some preferences but I do not
    > want to flavor the feed back. I would be buying just a frame and then building it the way I want
    > so component related differences would be negated. Is the weight diff between the two mostly
    > component differences or the frame? Is one frame just a better performer due to the difference in
    > construction? My understanding is the geometry is the same. Please let me know if I am incorrect.
    > I am also undecided on the two handlebar choices with the attendant differences in shifters and
    > brake levers. What the heck are the "A" brakes on the Phantom? I did not see V-brakes as a frame
    > option for the Phantom.
    >
    > Please feel free to contact me off the forum if you wish. Any help would be appreciated.
    > Thanks, Don

    Other than a ride or two on a Phantom, All my experience is with the P-38. I will try to restrict
    my comments thus. The P-38 will likely be a little lighter and faster. Seating can be improved
    minimally. Seating adjustment on the Lightning (either flavor) is not possible. Brakes are
    terrible and you are restricted with interference with the chain in front and (for me in the back
    too). The "A" brakes that you refer are Odyssey A Brakes that mount with the cable on the left and
    are IMO crap.

    The P-38 is a fast and can be developed into a decent bike. The prices between the two are reflected
    in the construction geometry. The drop
    h/b found on the P-38 are nice if you like barcon shifters(I do) The 30° Drop bend h/b work well if
    you are comfortable with GRIPSHIFT shifters (I am). A Bacchetta Giro is a better bike out of the
    box than the Lightning P- 38 and over $1000 less. I would prefer a Giro over a Phantom because I
    can get comfortable on it and the seating is more comfotrable and adjustable. It takes a lot of
    work to get a P-38 in racing condition. I would like better seating but I have adapted to the
    limited angle of the Lightning seat.

    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  3. Dj Blag

    Dj Blag Guest

    I have to respectfully disagree with Cletus. As far as the comparison of the Phantom (which I own)
    to the Bacchetta, I posed the comparison to the dealer- (Rolf at Hostelshoppe) and even tho' he
    would have made more selling me the Bacchetta, he recommended the Phantom. I have ridden a P-38 a
    few times and it is a wonderful bicycle, lighter, and I assume faster than my Phantom, but for me it
    was a matter of an additional $1000, which I could not justify. The seat on the Phantom is quite
    adjustable, and extremely comfortable, much more so than my Linear LWB which I once had. As for the
    bars, due to my leg length, I find the drop bars having a better chance for knee 'interruption' than
    the straight bar. Either shifting mechanism works fine. Hope this helps. chas
     
  4. Well ... it's turning out to be a confusing and difficult decision but after test-riding the
    drop-dead-gorgeous Bacchetta Aero twice ... I am beginning to suspect that the P-38 design may be
    "better" for me in terms of body-to-bike fit, comfortable seating, power-application, whatever. I
    sold a P-38 XT instead of keeping it for a 2nd "fast-on-hills" recumbent .... and I am beginning to
    think selling it may have been a mistake. I'm now (maybe) thinking about looking around for a used
    F-80 or R-84. Hmmm.

    "Dj Blag" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > I have to respectfully disagree with Cletus. As far as the comparison of
    the
    > Phantom (which I own) to the Bacchetta, I posed the comparison to the dealer- (Rolf at
    > Hostelshoppe) and even tho' he would have made more selling me the Bacchetta, he recommended the
    > Phantom. I have ridden a P-38 a few times and it is a wonderful bicycle, lighter,
    and
    > I assume faster than my Phantom, but for me it was a matter of an
    additional
    > $1000, which I could not justify.
     
  5. Dj Blag

    Dj Blag Guest

    I was ready to give up my long dream of owning a Lightning in favor of the Bacchetta, but Rolf
    talked me out of it. One reason its weight, and the other was he didn't think it handled as well as
    a Lightning. chas
     
  6. Rotofool

    Rotofool Guest

    [email protected] (Don) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Has anyone owned both the Phantom and P38 or have carnal knowledge of both? I am trying to decide
    > between the two. I have sizing issues which I won't go into here and some preferences but I do not
    > want to flavor the feed back. I would be buying just a frame and then building it the way I want
    > so component related differences would be negated. Is the weight diff between the two mostly
    > component differences or the frame? Is one frame just a better performer due to the difference in
    > construction? My understanding is the geometry is the same. Please let me know if I am incorrect.
    > I am also undecided on the two handlebar choices with the attendant differences in shifters and
    > brake levers. What the heck are the "A" brakes on the Phantom? I did not see V-brakes as a frame
    > option for the Phantom.
    >
    > Please feel free to contact me off the forum if you wish. Any help would be appreciated.
    > Thanks, Don

    One difference that makes some people prefer the Phantom is the ability to adjust both the boom and
    the seat fore-and-aft to dial in weight distribution between the two wheels.

    The Oddessy(sp?) A-brake is a brand of V-brake.

    The handle bar styles are strictly personal preference, with regard to both grip angle and style
    of shifter.

    The 700mm rear wheel on the P-38 permits the use of tires with the lowest rolling resistance.

    Most people I know who have ridden both bikes consider the Phantom's handling less
    sensitive at speed.

    Len Thunberg
     
  7. Jackal

    Jackal Guest

    [email protected] (Don) wrote in news:bf9a2acd.0302281802.725114 @posting.google.com:

    > Has anyone owned both the Phantom and P38 or have carnal knowledge of both? I am trying to decide
    > between the two. I have sizing issues which I won't go into here and some preferences but I do not
    > want to flavor the feed back. I would be buying just a frame and then building it the way I want
    > so component related differences would be negated. Is the weight diff between the two mostly
    > component differences or the frame? Is one frame just a better performer due to the difference in
    > construction? My understanding is the geometry is the same. Please let me know if I am incorrect.
    > I am also undecided on the two handlebar choices with the attendant differences in shifters and
    > brake levers. What the heck are the "A" brakes on the Phantom? I did not see V-brakes as a frame
    > option for the Phantom.
    >
    > Please feel free to contact me off the forum if you wish. Any help would be appreciated.
    > Thanks, Don
    >

    While the P38 was a fine machine, and certainly helped win the war,no propeller driven aircraft
    could begin to cope with a crazy mad jet like the F1 Phantom!!!!!!!!
     
  8. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > One difference that makes some people prefer the Phantom is the ability to adjust both the boom
    > and the seat fore-and-aft to dial in weight distribution between the two wheels.
    >
    >
    I was not aware that the Phantom seat was different from the P-38. Having a seat that has no
    adjustments is a big issue for me with my P-
    38.

    Now if the seat tilt could happen, that IMO would be a big improvement.

    --
    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  9. Dj Blag

    Dj Blag Guest

    Yeah, but P-38 has such a 'ring' to us WW2 brats! Chas
     
  10. Bobinator

    Bobinator Guest

    I ride a Phantom II, which has the same component level of the base P-38 (love those bar end
    shifters)with the exception of a 26" wheel instead of a 700C. Same hub though. IMO, it is clearly
    a better bike than any other sub $2,000 bike I have tried. I don't know if the P-38 is $700-$800
    better. I think the Phantom will outclimb everything but a P-38 (or a DF). The Phantom II is a
    good compromise between the performance of the P-38 and the price of the Phantom base model, IMO.
    I submitted a detailed review to RCN, no official word as to its publication yet. It is a very
    good bike.

    [email protected] (Don) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Has anyone owned both the Phantom and P38 or have carnal knowledge of both? I am trying to decide
    > between the two. I have sizing issues which I won't go into here and some preferences but I do not
    > want to flavor the feed back. I would be buying just a frame and then building it the way I want
    > so component related differences would be negated. Is the weight diff between the two mostly
    > component differences or the frame? Is one frame just a better performer due to the difference in
    > construction? My understanding is the geometry is the same. Please let me know if I am incorrect.
    > I am also undecided on the two handlebar choices with the attendant differences in shifters and
    > brake levers. What the heck are the "A" brakes on the Phantom? I did not see V-brakes as a frame
    > option for the Phantom.
    >
    > Please feel free to contact me off the forum if you wish. Any help would be appreciated.
    > Thanks, Don
     
  11. Akensmith

    Akensmith Guest

    > I have sizing issues which I won't go into here and some preferences but I do
    not want to flavor the feed back.>>

    If we knew what your sizing issues are, we might be able to give you better advice. I test rode a
    2000 Stealth (the former version of the Phantom). And I loved it. But I wanted more speed, so I
    shelled out the extra $$ for the P-38. I've never regretted it. To repeat the advice I've given here
    before, if you buy a P-38, for God's sake just get the base model. Do your own upgrades after you've
    ridden it 1000 miles.

    Norm
     
  12. Don

    Don Guest

    Thanks for all the input. Dj--do you have long legs or short that make you prefer the v-bars instead
    of the drop? With my short legs the drop bars seemed to be in the way on the large frame I sat on.
    Short riders have their knees come much closer to their chest that riders that are taller. And small
    differences in crank arm length don't make up the difference.

    I am still confused on the tilt stem available on the Phantom vs the ??? on the P-38. How does the
    P-38 stem work adjustment wise?

    I dislike the Giro design because the seat would climb the tube to get it close enough to the crank
    for me. The web site pictures are scary with the seat bottom pointed 45 degrees into the air. Still,
    I was willing to give them a try but the local dealer won't have any smalls in stock until May. I
    live in CA and have been riding all winter. It is quickly becoming spring and I have ridden 6 out of
    the last 12 days and plan on riding tomorrow and the day after. May is not acceptable. I want to
    avoid the spring rush to buy and start enjoying the bike now.
     
  13. More Information requested: How tall are you? What is your X-seam? What sizes of which bikes have
    you tried?

    I am 5'7" with a 41-42" X-seam.

    I have a Med P-38 and a Std Giro. I tried a Strada but I am too short. The Std Giro fits me
    just fine.

    I tested a Large P-38 and a Large Phantom. Seat to ground was a stretch and I could not comfortably
    reach the pedals. I got a Medium P-38. The Boom is at the outer limit of adjustment. (I hope I've
    stopped growing). I probably could not be comfortable on a small Lightning. I got my P-38 with a
    16"(349) front wheel I did not like the small wheel. With a 20" fork, I am happier with the
    Lightning. You should be talking to Tim Brummer about fitting a Lightning. (well maybe not. He
    talked me into the 16" fork.)

    The Bacchetta is 10 times a better designed bike than the Lightning. Both are good but I took a long
    time tweaking the Lightning to make it work well for me. The longer WB on the Bacchetta Giro makes
    for a more comfortable ride over the P-38.

    I wish I could get a Bacchetta seat on my lightning. Out of the Box, the foam seat pad is wimpy and
    non supportative. I replaced the foam with a Thermarest stadium seat and I am happier. The tubular
    frame hits me across my neck vertibrae just at my shoulders. It was a painful to ride more than
    15-20 miles untill I padded the frame at that point with Pipe insulation. The seat laces have to be
    replaced often since the grommets cut through them every few thousand miles. The seat laces must be
    kept tight or recumbo'butt will set in.

    In article <[email protected]>, dizone1 @lycos.com says...
    > Thanks for all the input. Dj--do you have long legs or short that make you prefer the v-bars
    > instead of the drop? With my short legs the drop bars seemed to be in the way on the large frame I
    > sat on. Short riders have their knees come much closer to their chest that riders that are taller.
    > And small differences in crank arm length don't make up the difference.
    >
    > I am still confused on the tilt stem available on the Phantom vs the ??? on the P-38. How does the
    > P-38 stem work adjustment wise?

    Here is a pic of the tilt stem on my P-38: http://www.clee.org/images/LightningLockingSteering2.jpg
    http://www.clee.org/images/LightningLockingSteering.jpg

    The length of the stem is adjusted with the lock bolt seen in the top photo just above the tilt
    steering clamp.
    >
    > I dislike the Giro design because the seat would climb the tube to get it close enough to the
    > crank for me.

    This is the problem I had with the Strada, Unless you are very much shorter than I, the Std Giro
    should be comfortable for you.

    > The web site pictures are scary with the seat bottom pointed 45 degrees into the air. Still, I was
    > willing to give them a try but the local dealer won't have any smalls in stock until May. I live
    > in CA and have been riding all winter. It is quickly becoming spring and I have ridden 6 out of
    > the last 12 days and plan on riding tomorrow and the day after. May is not acceptable. I want to
    > avoid the spring rush to buy and start enjoying the bike now.

    You may be too late. The trees have already started to re-leaf here in Texas.

    --
    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  14. On Sat, 1 Mar 2003 13:45:57 -0600, Cletus D. Lee <[email protected]> wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    >> One difference that makes some people prefer the Phantom is the ability to adjust both the boom
    >> and the seat fore-and-aft to dial in weight distribution between the two wheels.
    >>
    >>
    >I was not aware that the Phantom seat was different from the P-38. Having a seat that has no
    >adjustments is a big issue for me with my P-
    >38.
    >
    >Now if the seat tilt could happen, that IMO would be a big improvement.

    Not only the seat angle, but also seat position. Which means the seat angle is not limited by the
    seat/tire interference - you can just move the seat forward. The tilt angle is only limited by leg
    reach, which is a disadvantage of the Lightning seat - since the seat is so deep and wide, if you
    tilt it too far you can't put your feet down. I used to have to tiptoe on my Stealth, but I can
    put my feet down flat on the Bacchetta Aero (M5 hardshell seat) despite the higher and more
    reclined seat.

    Also I've heard that the P-38 fork has a very narrow clearance. On the Stealth/Phantom you can mount
    a 20x1.75 Comp Pool and still use a standard fender.

    I think the P-38 and Phantom has the same (optional) tilt mechanism. I don't like it - the
    adjustment steps are too coarse. Maybe the TerraCycle stem is better. I think there's one available
    that fits Lightning bikes.

    Ken Kobayashi [email protected] http://solarwww.mtk.nao.ac.jp/kobayashi/personal/
     
  15. Bob

    Bob Guest

    I have owned both a Stealth (now called Phantom) and a P38. I even owned a Bachetta Strada. Of the 3
    I like the P38 the best which is why I still have it. The Stealth was a great bike. It took me on
    some great rides that I wouldn't have been able to do on a regular bike. The only reason I got rid
    of it was to buy the P38 that I got a great deal on. For me, the P38 is faster. It handles great and
    is really comfortable. I was really glad I was riding it on the last Century I was in. The Strada is
    a great bike also. I really like the idea of wheels the same size. My problem with it was that I
    couldn't get the seat adjusted to fit me. With it tilted back, it killed my neck. I just couldn't
    get it tilted up enough to be comfortable. Combined with the RANS style seat, it just didn't work
    out for me. I know that I am one of the few who just can't get comfortable on a RANS style seat. So,
    for me, the P38 is the bike to go with. I wish I still had the Stealth as well to use as a commuter
    bike. If I could have a Lighnting seat on a Bachetta, it would probably be just right also. The best
    way to see what works for you, is to ride, ride, ride. A bike is a very personal thing and what
    works for me or Cletus or any of the other guys might not work for you. Ride them all and go with
    what works. Good luck....Bob
     
  16. Don

    Don Guest

    Thanks to all for the comments. Cletus, thanks for the pics. Are those stock or something you added?
    I thought I remember you mentioning tweaking the stem. I had envisioned something more like a
    "flip-it" as stock.

    Bob, your suggestion to ride all the bikes only adds to my frustration. I can not even find bikes to
    look at let alone one that fits me for a ride. I do appreciate your comparison between the Stealth
    (Phantom) and P-38. Sounds like I could probably be happy with either with my bank account being
    happier with the former.

    I preferred the P-38 based on specs because it is lower in the small size and lighter. I was afraid
    the combo size S/M Phantom would be a compromise size wise. I need the smallest they make.

    Now I need to find a place to buy it at a good price. The 50% mark-up is too much to pay to a dealer
    that has none in stock and just wants to order, and deliver. That is not full service and does not
    deserve full mark-up. I probably will only order a frame because I want Ultegra or better components
    and the Ultegra package is over-priced and a moot point because it is not available on small frames.
    I am going to have to build it myself to get it affordable and the way I want it.
     
  17. In article <[email protected]>, dizone1 @lycos.com says...
    > Thanks to all for the comments. Cletus, thanks for the pics. Are those stock or something you
    > added? I thought I remember you mentioning tweaking the stem. I had envisioned something more like
    > a "flip-it" as stock.

    The Lockdown steering column seen in the pics is lightning stock (Std on the Phantom and extra
    on the P-38)

    I am still left in the dark as to why you think you need a Small. I didn't think any biking male
    would be shorter than me.

    --
    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  18. Don

    Don Guest

    Cletus, or should I say "Big Dog", I am 5.3" and all heart, no legs. X-seam 36.5-37. I contacted
    Lightning to see if a med could be massaged shorter but they said I needed a small. I have nothing
    else to go on but their spec sheet and response to me. I certainly would feel more comfortable
    using the bike with the lowest seat--depending on how it interacted with my legs when I try to
    reach the ground.

    The bike that fits me great is the TE or GRR but that is more bike than I want to deal with
    tranporting and storing. I am spoiled by having everyone of my bikes (Haluzak and 4 DFs) all fit in
    the back of my Subaru wagon.

    Cletus D. Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > The Lockdown steering column seen in the pics is lightning stock (Std on the Phantom and extra on
    > the P-38)
    >
    > I am still left in the dark as to why you think you need a Small. I didn't think any biking male
    > would be shorter than me.
     
  19. In article <[email protected]>, dizone1 @lycos.com says...
    >
    > Cletus, or should I say "Big Dog", I am 5.3" and all heart, no legs. X-seam 36.5-37. I contacted
    > Lightning to see if a med could be massaged shorter but they said I needed a small.
    >
    I just measured my boom. I have the Med and the boom is fully extended. If it were at the min mark,
    you would only get a little less than 2" A Small Lightning is going to limit you to a 16" wheel.
    These small wheels 'feel' every dimple in the road I was not happy with the ride of my Voyager when
    I had a 16" wheel.

    A Small Giro would maybe work if you could find one. Another thing you might spec is 165mm cranks.
    These come Standard on a Small Giro.

    FWIW A few year's back, I was working on a programming team comprised of mostly Asians and me the
    lone Caucasian. I was actually one of the taller in the group.One day, we were all BS'ing about
    being 'vertically challenged.' And then everyone turned on my friend Khoa and started giving him a
    hard time about being the shortest in the group. I brought the chatter to a chuckling halt when I
    said, "The only reason we keep Khoa around is so that the rest of us can feel tall."

    Khoa and I worked together for a few more years and then both of us moved on to other programming
    jobs. Last Spring, I helped Khoa get on where I am now developing web pages. Khoa too is all Heart.
    And the best damned work mate I have ever had.

    --
    Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager http://www.clee.org
    - Bellaire, TX USA -
     
  20. Mitch

    Mitch Guest

    Cletus D. Lee <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]>, dizone1 @lycos.com says...
    > >
    > > Cletus, or should I say "Big Dog", I am 5.3" and all heart, no legs. X-seam 36.5-37. I contacted
    > > Lightning to see if a med could be massaged shorter but they said I needed a small.
    > >
    > I just measured my boom. I have the Med and the boom is fully extended. If it were at the min
    > mark, you would only get a little less than 2" A Small Lightning is going to limit you to a 16"
    > wheel. These small wheels 'feel' every dimple in the road I was not happy with the ride of my
    > Voyager when I had a 16" wheel.
    >
    > A Small Giro would maybe work if you could find one. Another thing you might spec is 165mm cranks.
    > These come Standard on a Small Giro.
    >
    A small, used Giro on sale here http://www.rapidtransitcycles.com/index.html
     
Loading...
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...