Phelps events at Worlds



R

[email protected] (Larry Weisenthal)

Guest
If memory serves, 100, 200, 400 free, 100 fly, 200 IM.

I'm thinking he wants to remove all doubt as to who is the greatest
swimmer of all time. His only "weakness" had been his lack of
freestyle dominance. He's got two years following Montreal to work on
his free. He's got a great training group in Ann Arbor (Keller and
Vanderkaay).
 
I think you're right, Larry.

He's also dropping the 400m I.M. from his program. Probably too much
to do 400m freestyle as well as 400 I.M.

But to really make his mark in freestyle, he's going to have to get a
World Record. Not just get gold at an international meet.

Speaking of World Records, does anyone know who has set the most?

For example, Phelps has held the World Record in 100 and 200 Fly, 200
and 400 IM, so that's 4.

I believe Spitz set records in 100, 200 free, and 100, 200 fly. So he
set 4.

Has anybody gone over 4? Certainly Phelps could lay claim to best ever
if he got a World Record in 200 or 400 free. He's also close in 200
back.

Eric
 
Shane Gould set WR in 100, 200, 400, 800 and 1500 meter free and 200
meter IM between 71 and 73 mutiple times. Of course, she was erased
from the records by Ender in many events :).
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I believe Spitz set records in 100, 200 free, and 100, 200 fly. So he
> set 4.
>

How quickly people forget.

Munich - 7 WR's, 7 golds. He also held the 400 WR for a time. I think
there were 24 WR swims out of him, not including relays.

Shane Gould, before that, held all the Freestyle WR's at the same time.

Weismuller set more than 50 WR's in Freestyle and Backstroke.

Four WR's will not make anyone the "greatest swimmer of all time".
 
"Munich - 7 WR's, 7 golds. He also held the 400 WR for a time."

Three at Munich were relays, so that makes 4, my original number. But
you indicate 400 freestyle WR also belonged to Spitz at one time, so
that makes 5.

I'm distinuguishing between world records set at any one time, versus
holding the world record in a certain event at any time as a way to
define the broadness of the swimmer's greatness. Phelps has broken
the WR in 200 Fly a number of times, but in this accounting, he only
gets 1.

So evidently Shane Gould broke WR in 6 different events, so by this
accounting she's leading.

This is the usual arm-chair quaterbacking, comparing individuals or
teams from different eras, and trying to figure out which one was
better. It's a rather impossible task but fun if one realizes there
can never be one right answer. Especially in swimming where goggles
and body suits have forever altered the dynamics compared to earlier
eras. Certainly on the female side, Gould belongs in the "best ever
??" category. Janet Evans is also there since her records have stood
for so long, even while being pursued by steroid pumped East Germans.

Eric
 
I agree it is not possible to compare past and present performances. How do
you compare

John Naber and Aaron Peirsol, John Hencken and Brendan Hanson, or Gary hall
Sr. and

Michael Phelps? They did not even swim the same strokes due to rule
changes.



Other things to consider are how long someone held a record and the fact
that women's

swimming was tarnished for 20 years by drug-enhanced performances.



The best we can hope for is to determine who is the best at any given time.



Although I think Michael Phelps will some day be the greatest swimmer of all
time I must

vote for Mark Spitz. Seven world records, seven gold medals, stopped
swimming at the

age of 22 and he also held the world record in the 400 freestyle and the
American record

in the 100 backstroke.





Mike
 
Phelps' claim to "greatest swimmer of all time" sobriquet would not be
based on number of WR, but rather on breadth and depth of excellence.

Mark Spitz was great at free and fly (similar events, actually). Phelps
is the greatest IMer ("decathlon of swimming") of all time, and world
class excellent at free, fly, back individually. If he can eventually
achieve the same level of excellence in 100, 200, 400, 800 free as
achieved by Ian Thorpe PLUS have the greatness in 200/400 IM PLUS
100/200 fly PLUS 200 back, then I'd like to know who else has ever been
able to do come close. Not Thorpe, not Spitz, not Gould, and not
Weismueller, certainly.

- Larry W


jtaylor wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > I believe Spitz set records in 100, 200 free, and 100, 200 fly. So
he
> > set 4.
> >
>
> How quickly people forget.
>
> Munich - 7 WR's, 7 golds. He also held the 400 WR for a time. I
think
> there were 24 WR swims out of him, not including relays.
>
> Shane Gould, before that, held all the Freestyle WR's at the same
time.
>
> Weismuller set more than 50 WR's in Freestyle and Backstroke.
>
> Four WR's will not make anyone the "greatest swimmer of all time".
 
"Mike" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I agree it is not possible to compare past and present performances. How
do
> you compare
>
> John Naber and Aaron Peirsol, John Hencken and Brendan Hanson, or Gary
hall
> Sr. and
>
> Michael Phelps? They did not even swim the same strokes due to rule
> changes.

Naber's backstroke was faster than the flyer's and he had to do touch-turns
(not even suicide ones - he stayed on his back).

>
>
>
> Other things to consider are how long someone held a record and the fact
> that women's
>
> swimming was tarnished for 20 years by drug-enhanced performances.
>
>

If you're going to bring that up then Shirley Babashoff is a name to
consider...
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Phelps' claim to "greatest swimmer of all time" sobriquet would not be
> based on number of WR, but rather on breadth and depth of excellence.
>
> Mark Spitz was great at free and fly (similar events, actually). Phelps
> is the greatest IMer ("decathlon of swimming") of all time, and world
> class excellent at free, fly, back individually. If he can eventually
> achieve the same level of excellence in 100, 200, 400, 800 free as
> achieved by Ian Thorpe PLUS have the greatness in 200/400 IM PLUS
> 100/200 fly PLUS 200 back, then I'd like to know who else has ever been
> able to do come close. Not Thorpe, not Spitz, not Gould, and not
> Weismueller, certainly.

Weissmuller didn't have the option of an IM.

Given that he held WR's in two of the strokes, and the speed in the
not-then-extant fourth has a high correlation with one of them, it's
reasonable to suggest he well could have held WR's in such an event, had it
been available.

It should also be a factor that for anyone to approach his status their WR's
should show the same degree of longevity.

Phelps looks good now - so what. 22 years after his last Olympic appearance
as a swimmer, Weissmuller was "overwhelmingly" voted the greatest swimmer of
the 1900-1950 period.
 
Sorry Larry, I realise I sent this to you first by mistake.

Shane Gould is the only swimmer to have ever held all the 'available'
freestyle world records at the same time plus she held the 200IM at that
time too, proving she too was versatile. Considering she was only aged
16/17 at the time then retired it is difficult to match her level of
"greatness" against modern day swimmers. And impossible for ANYONE to say
that Phelps is a "greater" swimmer than she was at her best. It's like
trying to compare Michael Schumacher to Juan Fangio or Ronaldinio to Pele.
That's even if Phelps himself is saying let alone you Larry :)

Ian
 
>>And impossible for ANYONE to say
that Phelps is a "greater" swimmer than she was at her best. <<

I think that Shane Gould was a very fine swimmer, but Janet Evans, less
than a dozen years later, swam times that were competitive with the
best MEN who swam at the time Gould swam, and which would have utterly
destroyed Gould's WR times, which were:

100 Freestyle London 30 April 1971 eq. world record 58.9
200 Freestyle London 1 May 1971, 2.06.5
400 Freestyle Santa Clara California 9 July 9 1971, 4.21.2
200 Freestyle Drummoyne Sydney 26 November 1971, 2.05.8
800 Freestyle Drummoyne Sydney 3 December 1971, 8.58.1
1500 Freestyle Birrong Sydney 12 December 1971, 17.00.6

Gould's time wouldn't have even won a fast age group meet 14 years
later.

Evan's WRs haven't been challenged in 17 years.

So Gould wasn't even as great a swimmer as Janet Evans, who, according
to coaches like Coach Smith, did nearly everything wrong technically,
including lifting her entire head out of the water with each stroke.
Evans also swam against MUCH harder competition than Gould, namely the
doped up East Germans, who defeated all other swimmers, save for Evans.
Astrid Strauss kept her head down in the water, swam with a beautiful,
perfect "TI style stroke, was a good 9 inches taller than Evans, and
was doped up with male hormones, and still didn't beat a girl who did
everything wrong, technically.

Smith claims that Evans was, in his words, a "genetic freak." In what
way? Her VO2 max was in the 50s, which is hardly freakish. She wasn't
all that strong, according to her coach, Bud McAllister, and never did
formal weight training. She didn't have unusual flexibility. She
didn't have a long torso or big feet or big hands. And she, according
to Coach Smith, didn't swim with good technique. Coach Smith claims
that Evans would have swum even faster had she used "good technique."
So how, exactly, was Evans a "genetic freak?"

Shane Gould wasn't even close to being the greatest swimmer of all
time; of that I am quite certain.

And Ian Smith doesn't have a clear understanding of what constitutes
"good technique;" nor do most of his colleagues. Their concept of
"good technique" is based upon erroneous assumptions and erroneous
deductions and erroneous extrapolations.

- Larry W
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >>And impossible for ANYONE to say
> that Phelps is a "greater" swimmer than she was at her best. <<
>
> I think that Shane Gould was a very fine swimmer, but Janet Evans, less
> than a dozen years later, swam times that were competitive with the
> best MEN who swam at the time Gould swam, and which would have utterly
> destroyed Gould's WR times, which were:

True, but irrelevant to determining if one was a better swimmer. Comparison
of absolute times done at dates so far apart is a flawed basis for such a
judgement.

>
> 100 Freestyle London 30 April 1971 eq. world record 58.9
> 200 Freestyle London 1 May 1971, 2.06.5
> 400 Freestyle Santa Clara California 9 July 9 1971, 4.21.2
> 200 Freestyle Drummoyne Sydney 26 November 1971, 2.05.8
> 800 Freestyle Drummoyne Sydney 3 December 1971, 8.58.1
> 1500 Freestyle Birrong Sydney 12 December 1971, 17.00.6
>
> Gould's time wouldn't have even won a fast age group meet 14 years
> later.

Repeating a point does not make it any more relevant.

>
> Evan's WRs haven't been challenged in 17 years.

A valid point for _some_ of them; in that (single) respect she is now equal
to Weissmuller.

>
> So Gould wasn't even as great a swimmer as Janet Evans, who, according
> to coaches like Coach Smith, did nearly everything wrong technically,
> including lifting her entire head out of the water with each stroke.
> Evans also swam against MUCH harder competition than Gould, namely the
> doped up East Germans, who defeated all other swimmers, save for Evans.
> Astrid Strauss kept her head down in the water, swam with a beautiful,
> perfect "TI style stroke, was a good 9 inches taller than Evans, and
> was doped up with male hormones, and still didn't beat a girl who did
> everything wrong, technically.
>
> Smith claims that Evans was, in his words, a "genetic freak." In what
> way? Her VO2 max was in the 50s, which is hardly freakish. She wasn't
> all that strong, according to her coach, Bud McAllister, and never did
> formal weight training. She didn't have unusual flexibility. She
> didn't have a long torso or big feet or big hands. And she, according
> to Coach Smith, didn't swim with good technique. Coach Smith claims
> that Evans would have swum even faster had she used "good technique."
> So how, exactly, was Evans a "genetic freak?"

Swimming is so complex that no single - or even small group - of
characetristics can determine speed. The sum of all Evans' characteristics
is what was freakish - and in that respect, only for the long events. Gould
could sprint as well as swim the distance events, and she also held (which
you omit) an IM WR. What more can one ask?

>
> Shane Gould wasn't even close to being the greatest swimmer of all
> time; of that I am quite certain.

False premises will often lead to false conclusions.

>
> And Ian Smith doesn't have a clear understanding of what constitutes
> "good technique;" nor do most of his colleagues. Their concept of
> "good technique" is based upon erroneous assumptions and erroneous
> deductions and erroneous extrapolations.

This chain of events seems to be common
 
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